F T/R Competition 600 yard F/TR with .223

[Tempest 455]

Well my son and I did a 1,000 yard F/TR with a .308 and now he wants to try a 600 with a .223. However, I have a question for the experts. Last time out, we shot Hornday 68g at 400 yards and it shot VERY well.

I was hoping to use this ammo but do you think I need a heavier grain in the event we have some wind or is the 68g good for that distance?

The twist is 1 in 9.

 

[SNAFU_]

i have had good results with 75g AMAXs @ 600y, but i shoot a bolt gun with a 29" 1:7.7 twist

 

[Wolfkin]

I use 6mm x 45 AR - 65gr vmax to 400yd and 75gr vmax for 600yd with good results but the 75gr only fit in stainless steel C-products mags so watch your overall length

 

[XTR]

Shooting a 1:9 you are probably limited to 75s at the heaviest (longest). I'm building a 223 mid range gun. I asked the question here <-link. I think you'll get all of your questions answered there, esp Laurie's post. (that Limey knows a little about shooting F class)

 

[Tempest 455]

This is a bolt gun.

 

[Denys]

How long is the barrel? The longest bullet you will probably be able to stabilize is a 77SMK. It's got one of the highest BC of the sub-80gr bullets, but I never could get it to shoot F-class worthy accuracy. Like SNAFU lowercase hyphen, I have shot the 75gr A-max in 1:8 and 1:7.7; they shot better than the 77SMK but they way not stabilize in your 1:9. If you push it really fast you should be able to use it. I have heard of people shooting 80grainers in 1:9 using max loads in long barrels.

 

[Taildrag15X]

I've use 77gr & 80gr Sierra MK's out of a Savage 112BT, factory 1-9" twist, 26", it's all single loading so you can seat them long, using Varget and R-15, around 24.5-25.0 grs. depending on the lot.

I gave Bergers a try in the same rifle, couldn't get either 77gr or 80gr to perform as well as the Sierra's so they are saved for the 1-8", 1-7" barrels.....

 

[northern50]

I shot 75 Amax's @ 600 with my Savage, both when it was a .223 rem and a .223 AI rechambered factory barrel. I got a lot of... "What ya shooting? That thing shoots good." Best is to see the look on peoples face when you tell them it's a .223. It was a good rifle to shoot when I was in college, it shot cheap lol. Good luck, and have fun!

 

[2clicks]

75 Amax Imr4895
Iron sights
Compass Lake AR-15 match rifle
1-7.7 twist Kreiger barrel
600 Yards five shots

223 can be a contender at 600 Yards I was trying to verify my 600 yard dope with these five shots (see photo bucket links) obviously I was off a bit but still the potential is apparent. The wind can get ya back there but Hey that's part of the fun learning to read that mirage.....

I've shot Moa and less (and More) at 600 with 69's and 68's too but the 75's and up are better suited for the task.


http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/xring243/IMAG0899_zpsc19155cc.jpg?t=1366536026

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k528/xring243/IMAG0890_zps01d2d8c5.jpg?t=1366536020

 

[manitou210]

The 75 gr Bergers will give you better results, than A maxes in my testing 1-9 twist

 

[Heman]

Well your twist is going to be the limiting factor. If you can I woudl go with a faster twist barrel. For 600yd line in service rifle I prefer 80gr VLD's, although 77's work. Down at Oak Ridge Randy Herman is shooting a .223 for Palma and has it throated for the 90gr VLD's and is using 2000MR powder in LC brass. He claims he is pushing them a little north of 2900. He won the regional last year down there it shot well at Camp Perry for him and so far has shot really well this year. If I was going to do .223 this is probably what I would go with myself.

 

[DGD6MM]

Tempest455,
Have you done the 600 yard .223 thing yet? If so how did you and your son make out? I'm thinking of a .223 for 600 yard and using a .223 Match reamer for the chambering. What's the thoughts on this, anyone?

 

[XTR]

I finally got my barrel in for my 223 Savage build last week. Now I gotta find a reamer. Long throated 223 reamers seem to be pretty scarce. I'm going to shoot the 80Amax and the Nosler 80s. I'm looking for a reamer that will let me seat the Amax with the end of bearing surface just above the neck shoulder "donut" region. That's a hella lot longer than most folks have to 223 reamers.

 

[gstaylorg]

Wade,
I spoke with Dave Kiff at PTG last week about .223 reamers. He told me he has made some with extremely long leads for shooting 90 gr VLDs. I don't know if he currently has any in stock, but he definitely has made some and knows what will work for your purpose.

 

[XTR]

Greg, I've been calling him for 2 days now and we just can't seem to both be able to get to the phone at the same time. I'll be ordering one shortly though.

 

[tobedell]

Pet load shooting out to 1000 with, 25gn N540 behind a 77 SMK.

 

[Tempest 455]

Tempest455,
Have you done the 600 yard .223 thing yet? If so how did you and your son make out? I'm thinking of a .223 for 600 yard and using a .223 Match reamer for the chambering. What's the thoughts on this, anyone?

No I have not. The match is in July. However, looks like we may be shooting .308 because I cannot find any Hornday .223 match.

 

[Denys]

Pet load shooting out to 1000 with, 25gn N540 behind a 77 SMK.

Good for you, I have never been able to get the 77SMK fast enough to make 1000 yards supersonicaly let alone above Mach 1.25, which is my personal minimum velocity at the target. The 77SMK simply does not have the BC for that, at least for me. I favor the 80grainers for that distance (actually any distance in F-TR) and I have used the 80SMK but prefer the 80JLK.

 

[tobedell]

Good for you, I have never been able to get the 77SMK fast enough to make 1000 yards supersonicaly let alone above Mach 1.25, which is my personal minimum velocity at the target. The 77SMK simply does not have the BC for that, at least for me. I favor the 80grainers for that distance (actually any distance in F-TR) and I have used the 80SMK but prefer the 80JLK.

What is the relationship of altitude density and drag? I live at 8,000 feet above sealevel and without alot of resistance BC is staying higher longer (true?)

 

[XTR]

You need to go and research density altitude then play with the JBM online calculator.

In short thin air provides less resistance so the rate at which the bullet slows is reduced. Density altitude takes into acct the temperature effects that simulate altitude. My range in Oak Ridge TN is at ~950ASL but the density alittude in the middle of the summer is frequently well above 2000 feet. The first day at Raton last yr I checked the DA, it was 9000+ (actual is close to 7000ASL) my bullets needed 3.5 MOA less elevation to get to 1000 yds.

 

[Tempest 455]

You need to go and research density altitude then play with the JBM online calculator.

In short thin air provides less resistance so the rate at which the bullet slows is reduced. Density altitude takes into acct the temperature effects that simulate altitude. My range in Oak Ridge TN is at ~950ASL but the density alittude in the middle of the summer is frequently well above 2000 feet. The first day at Raton last yr I checked the DA, it was 9000+ (actual is close to 7000ASL) my bullets needed 3.5 MOA less elevation to get to 1000 yds.

That's great info. I'm planning on going there in June for the 1st time.

 

[XTR]

This is one of the reasons that you never believe anyone's MV estimated based on their come ups. I've seen the change in DA in Oak Ridge result in close to a full MOA difference in my dope from a match shot at 1000 and one shot at 1430 on a July afternoon. Look at how much MV you'd have to pile on to shave an MOA off of a 308 bullet. My bullets didn't get faster, the air got thinner. You can see that w/o the correct DA info the comeup means nothing trying to figure out MV.

 

[tobedell]

It is such a difference at higher altitude that a cloud coming overhead might change DA for a 1000yd shot. Live for the moment, use Kentucky windage and holdover because before your fingers leave the turret the conditions may change.

 

[Bronco]

If you can find some 70gr. Berger VLD bullets (G7 BC = .190) they work well in a 1 in 9 twist. They are close to the same BC as the 77 gr. Berger BT. (G7 BC = 192) You can push them just as fast as your Hornaday 68 gr. load (G7 BC = 169).

 

[Down South]

Well your twist is going to be the limiting factor. If you can I woudl go with a faster twist barrel. For 600yd line in service rifle I prefer 80gr VLD's, although 77's work. Down at Oak Ridge Randy Herman is shooting a .223 for Palma and has it throated for the 90gr VLD's and is using 2000MR powder in LC brass. He claims he is pushing them a little north of 2900. He won the regional last year down there it shot well at Camp Perry for him and so far has shot really well this year. If I was going to do .223 this is probably what I would go with myself.

Yesterday at Palo Alto in our monthly 600 yard match my buddy won FTR with a heavy barrel (1.25 straight) 22 inch .223.....He was shooting 80 gr VLD with Power Pro 2000MR running them at 2930 ftps......The wind was blowing and very tricky/switching constantly......He shot 587/600 25X and won it 5 points ahead of the 2nd place guy and the rest of the field was shooting 308s with a few high masters in the mix.......To say he shot well with that little mouse gun is an understatement in those conditions.......223s can be VERY competitive at 600 yards.......I think his gun is a 8 twist.

 

[XTR]

If you run the 600 yard numbers in JBM you give up about .3 inches per full value MPH to a top fuel F-TR 308 (guilty). To someone running more reasonable loads you give up nothing. I'm sending a dummy round off to Dave Kiff this week. I'm going to get a reamer to optimize the 80 Amax.

I ran my the 77 Noslers that I shoot in service rifle over the chrono last week and out of my 28" tube they were right on 3000FPS (about 250 fps faster than the gas gun runs them)

 

[meyersa88]

I'm running Hornady 75 gr HBPT at 2900 out of my rem 700 sps tactical with a 1:9 twist. I switched from the the 68's when I found out that the 75's are actually more stable because they are only .01 inches longer on average when I was measuring between the two lots. Was hoping to test the load out at an upcoming 600 yard match in Michigan, but I loaned my dies to a friend and he still has yet to return them to me.

 

[Tempest 455]

I picked up some 75 AMAX's. Looks like 23.5 Varget and COAL of 2.390 is a pretty popular combination. Anyone else try this?

 

[Denys]

When I was running 75 A-Max, my load was 24.5 Varget.

 

[Tempest 455]

Thanks.

What rifle and COAL?

 

[Denys]

It's an AR with a 26inch Krieger (1:7.7 twist). It's been years since I've used the 75 A-Max and I do not have the COAL recorded anywhere but it was seated long. I switched to 80grainers in 2006 and never looked back.

 

[Mr.Kirk]

H4895 behind 75 amax does me pretty good in FTR
My chamber is cut different than yours so you wouldnt use my col

 

[XTR]

I finally put my little 223 experiment to the test yesterday. OMG, that was fun!

What I put together started as a Savage F class in 6.5-284. I don't shoot that caliber, sold the barrel.

Got a prefit 28" 1:7 varmint contour from McGowan, picked up a hand throater from PTG and throated it out long enough to seat 80 Amax's with the bearing surface above the neck/shoulder junction.

Weighed the rifle with the bipod and my NF 8-32BR (my spare) and it was just over the limit.

Took a rasp the the stock and started shaping the forend. It's not finished yet but it rounder and lost the 3" trapezoid shape that it has from the factory and it's making weight now.

Loading in WCC (Winchester Military) brass, Tula 223 primers, and a healthy dose of Varget (well healthy is relative, it's about 56% of what I run in a 308 and not compressed) and 80Amax seated 0.010 off the lands. (OALs are over 2.5 )

Shot two matches in very switchy winds yesterday. Shot over 190 in both. (The open guys were losing about 1/2 as many points as I was)

Here is the cool part. The scope never moves outside of the 9 ring on recoil! It's like shooting a light 22LR. From the 28" tube it doesn't even sound the same, it's just a little *pop* . I had good target service in my second math. I got up and was watching the guy next to me shoot, and when they finished they looked at me and asked "did you have a mechanical?" I replied "No" They both said "you got off 20 rounds that fast". What was funny was I didn't feel that I was shooting that fast. The rifle just sits on the bag and the target comes up under the dot. Check the wind *bang* repeat.

Amax's cost 18¢ each, Berger 30 cal's run about 48¢, half the powder and I have somewhere between 5000 and 6000 military cases that have been sized, decapped and swaged and polished. I don't even have to prep brass for a few yrs. I'm digging this. (My Nikon crapped out on me or I'd post pictures.)

 

[Denys]

.223 is a joy to shoot in F-TR at 3-600 yards, as long as the wind is not too bad at that last yard line. I enjoy shooting my 26 inch Krieger barreled AR-15 in F-TR and with a fast puller and a scorer who is paying attention, I can shoot an entire string without even breaking cheekweld. I just feed the cartridges in the loading port and the cases come out automagically. No recoil, low noise, easy shooting, what's not to like?

We have a shooter at out club who is just outstanding with his .223 bolt gun (30 inch barrel?). I won't name names because his already inflated ego would just burst but his initials are FUBAR lowercase hyphen. He does a lot of damage with his .223, all the way to 1000 yards.

 

[XTR]

Dennys, I'm pushing the 80 Amax in the range of 2900. I got them all the way up to 3000 but was getting a heavy bolt all the time. I get a bolt lift that I can tell is a little heavy on about 1/3 of my shots, but I'm also using a short factory knob. Nothing that concerns me. That MV will run with most 308s at 600. It gives up about 0.3" per MPH to a 185 Berger at 2800FPS and I'm betting I can make up the difference in recoil. I'm not too serious about shooting at 600. There are 3 club matches a yr and it's good practice, and way cheaper.

 

[Denys]

Way cheaper and much more shoulder friendly. My 80gr JLKs are flying out at around 2850. I've been using Winchester cases in the .223 with Varget and Remington 7 1/2 primers.

I don't remember the difference in the wind between my 80JLKs @ 2850 and my 180JLKs also at 2850, but I seem to get higher scores with the .308 than with the .223, especially in more difficult conditions. I've never taken my current .308 F-TR to 300 yards, it would almost seem like cheating.

 

[XTR]

Here's the result...my 600 yard gun started life as a used Savage F class in 6.5-284.

Sold the barrel
- Bought a 223 Bolt from Midway (kept the 308 bolt for later use)
- Bought a Prefit 1:7 28" heavy (1" at the muzzle) from McGOWEN, throat is way too short in the prefit
- Bought a 223 hand throater from PT&G and throated my barrel for 80 Amax (The goal here is cheaper, and the Berger 90s are still Berger priced Amax are $18/box or less)
- did a major make over on the F class stock.
- Load 80 Amax over Varget in 1x WCC military brass (Getting abouit 2900FPS)
- Installed adjustable cheek hardware from KMW (it's light)
- lightened the stock another 3 oz to get down to 18 lbs with the Badger steel rings I had laying in the safe
- Bedded the action
- clear coated the stock

I shot a 600 yard match last week and had the high score in F-TR

Was doing load work on my 308s this morning and I took the 223 with some left over bullets. There was a used bullseye target at 100 yards with an unmarked last target, so I zeroed on some shot up target then shot a group. I don't shoot groups for crap. I called the 1st high left flyer, not sure on the 2nd.

The 3 shot group is a .090. The flyers are the 3rd and 5th shots. This tells me if I miss, it's me.

 

[XTR]

Here's the result...my 600 yard gun started life as a used Savage F class in 6.5-284.

Sold the barrel
- Bought a 223 Bolt from Midway (kept the 308 bolt for later use)
- Bought a Prefit 1:7 28" heavy (1" at the muzzle) from McGOWEN, throat is way too short in the prefit
- Bought a 223 hand throater from PT&G and throated my barrel for 80 Amax (The goal here is cheaper, and the Berger 90s are still Berger priced Amax are $18/box or less)
- did a major make over on the F class stock.
- Load 80 Amax over Varget in 1x WCC military brass (Getting abouit 2900FPS)
- Installed adjustable cheek hardware from KMW (it's light)
- lightened the stock another 3 oz to get down to 18 lbs with the Badger steel rings I had laying in the safe
- Bedded the action
- clear coated the stock

I shot a 600 yard match last week and had the high score in F-TR

Was doing load work on my 308s this morning and I took the 223 with some left over bullets. There was a used bullseye target at 100 yards with an unmarked last target, so I zeroed on some shot up target then shot a group. I don't shoot groups for crap. I called the 1st high left flyer, not sure on the 2nd.

The 3 shot group is a .090. The flyers are the 3rd and 5th shots. This tells me if I miss, it's me.