Advanced Marksmanship Carbine sling tension dilemma

[TheGerman]

Have been getting more into dynamic AR carbine shooting lately and have been going back and forth with an issue I am having with the 2 point sling setup I use in regards to the tension (or lack of slack) in the sling while shooting.

The issue is universal with any type of adjustable 2 point (VTAC, Ares, etc) and if it matters, I am using 2 QD swivels with the front in the LaRue quad rail internal mount and the rear on the QD hole in the MagPul CTR stock. I do not want to switch to a single, or 3 point.

The dilemma is pretty simple;

I can either tension the sling to where it provides a bit of positive feedback when in my shooting stance allowing for much tighter control of the rifle and a somewhat supported hold due to the sling having the slack taken out. The problem I run into with this is that while it allows a better/stronger shooting platform, reloads from any kind of front/chest magazine pouch is damn near impossible as you cannot move the rifle forward or to the side more than an inch or two, due to no slack. The only resolution I see to this is reaching with the shooting hand to slack the sling which is NOT something I want to do.

The other side is that the sling serves mainly as something that keeps the rifle slung on my body due to not having much tension on it while shooting and it not providing much of an aide platform wise, but allows for me to rotate the carbine away from my body (mag towards me) and allows for access to magazines.

Common sense is telling me to use the sling as just that, a sling for the carbine to be able to carry the rifle on my body and not try to 'fix' something and in the process hindering something very crucial. Thoughts?

 

[kraigWY]

Depends on the rifle: I use the 1907 type leather sling on my AR's

I have shot a lot of Military combat matches (KD range 100, 200, 300 & 400) using the M16a1. We used the sling in the High Power rifle configuration. With the M16a1 you couldn't put a lot of pressure on the sling without disturbing the light barrel.

Since then I use the 'A2 configuration in High Power (White Oak). I can't crank on that sling hard enough to change the impact.

I can still use the sling on the 'a1s ( or in my case an Colt SP1) but it has to be firm or slight pressure, it steadies the rifle without disturbing the barrel. But that gun is light enough you don't need a lot of pressure.

 

[TheGerman]

I'm not running into a real issue as far as the tension on the sling causing a POI shift, but rather finding myself stuck between 2 issues. I can either tension the sling (non 1907 type; its the type Blueforce/VTAC, etc use) with the sling 'slide' adjustment to where it is tensioned pretty well and aides in platform steadiness and aiming, but the downside is I have to reach over and release it when I want to reload as the rifle practically will not move when tensioned. Or, I can simply use the sling as something that keeps the rifle on my body but not tension it much which then allows easy access to reload the mag from a pouch.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Where is your front QD mount located at on the rifle? Is it mid rail/in front of the handguard nut or all the way down the rail by the business end? If it is all the way forward you will need to "pop" your left elbow out of the sling by extending it straight to allow you to rotate your weapon into your working space and go through a magazine change,etc. This means the sling will effectively be just around your neck while you are reloading. If you watch the Ares sling video's you will be able to see what I am describing. To get your left arm back into the sling it is simply a matter of grasping the weapons hadguard and re inserting your elbow into the sling as you reaquire your sight picture.

 

[TheGerman]

It's a LaRue freefloat quad carbine length; the QD attachment is as far back towards me as it can go as far as the rail. This one:

LaRue Tactical 7.0" Handguard LT15-7

Have a link to the video, I know what you mean. My problem currently is, tensioned = added stability but 0 working space.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

It's a LaRue freefloat quad carbine length; the QD attachment is as far back towards me as it can go as far as the rail. This one:

LaRue Tactical 7.0" Handguard LT15-7

Have a link to the video, I know what you mean. My problem currently is, tensioned = added stability but 0 working space.

OK, you will never find a good way to fix your problem with your QD point that close to you; it's a very limiting position to have the QD point when you have your sling cranked down,as you have found out. The method depicted in the video should also be familiar to you from precision shooting and affords you a more stable platform while using the sling in this fashion.

 

[TheGerman]

Makes perfect sense, and yes the swivel seems to be a large portion of the issue. Why on earth do they put it that far back then?

Looks like its time for a rail QD attachment that I can put up front and try this again. I got really confused when I saw quite a few pics/vids of guys shooting ARs and they pretty much didn't utilize any tension on the sling. From years of shooting rifles/precision I knew this couldn't be right, yet couldn't see how it would work with this 'newer' type of setup.

Thanks man.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

The whole idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position. There are three elements to a steady position: muscular relaxation, support, and natural point of aim. Unless you can relax into the sling it will be nothing more than a distraction to good shooting. Since proper sling support may seem unnatural at first get a highly qualified coach to observe possible errors, better assuring you are developing correct motor memory from the start.

 

[Graham]

OP, you are not shooting NRA hi-power so you probably won't be relaxed when shooting and you probably don't need a coach. If I read your post correctly, you want a sling that you can use alternatively for carry and support. I am a fan of the Israeli low-carry method, because it is comfortable for all-day sling carry and also leaves the rifle instantly accessible without ever having to take the sling off to shoot. With one of Tony's slings I can use the same sling as an all-day carry strap, a way to anchor the rifle close to the front of body if need-be, and also use it as a field-expedient shooting aid:

TAB Rapid Adjust Sling - YouTube

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

My last post provides the basis of understanding for what any shooter in any arena wants to get from sling support. Proper use of the sling means relaxing into it, relieving muscle, which means less wobble producing movement. Once again Graham just does not know that he does not know, as anyone who has no sling experience will have difficulty grasping the concept without the aid of a coach due to the initial unnatural feel of a correct sling supported position.

After you have come to know how to transfer the stability of the ground into the position through bone and sling support, developing motor memory through basic marksmanship practice, you can then determine, for whatever shooting application, if the sling, or any artificial support will be an aid or hindrance to getting the job done.

Kraig's earlier post summed it up pretty good regarding the reason you may not be able to fully relax into a sling when shooting at long distances with an AR which has not been free floated. Vertical dispersion is the likely result. This is a problem, for sure, since the rifle's design is at odds with the sling when the sling is used correctly. Fortunately, today's float tubes and free floating quad rails have offered a remedy over this concern. Using a free float handguard you can place all tension into the sling for awesome results.

 

[kraigWY]

Got to side with SS on this.

No law says a sling position has to be uncomfortable, to the contrary, if done right you can be relaxed.

Relaxation is one of the most under rated, under stress firearms fundamentals. I use it on my hunting rifles and varmint rifles. You can lay out there a long time waiting for a PD to pop out of it's hole while in the sling position.

When I was in LE, I have had to lay out and watch for some time on occasions. I used the sling position and didn't detect any discomfort. It might take a bit of practice, but its the proper use of the sling that really matters.

You'd be surprised, you jump out of your patrol car, grabbing your rifle on the way out, slip on the sling as you move to the front wheel, engine area of the vehicle, kneeling resting your slung support arm on the hood/fender and set there for an hour or so with no discomfort.

Get someone to show you the proper use of the M1907 or Turner type sling, then practice. Lay in the floor watching TV over your rifle, it doesn't take long to find you can be quite comfortable yet stable.

The biggest problem with this type sling is people wont put in the effort to learn and practice. They want to avoid the idea (which is a misconception) of it being only for High Power or Small Bore. They want to be more "tactical" (what ever that is).

They are hurting themselves.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

While some of you have provided sound advice on sling use, you have completely overlooked the OP's stated dilemma, and that has to do with the reload/immediate action process WHILE employing his current style of sling on an AR platform. Keep in mind that this also more than likely means utilizing the sling while walking and firing the weapon simultaneously, from behind cover, etc.

 

[Graham]

While some of you have provided sound advice on sling use, you have completely overlooked the OP's stated dilemma, and that has to do with the reload/immediate action process WHILE employing his current style of sling on an AR platform. Keep in mind that this also more than likely means utilizing the sling while walking and firing the weapon simultaneously, from behind cover, etc.

That's why I suggested a sling that works for that kind of activity.

Once again Graham just does not know that he does not know, as anyone who has no sling experience will have difficulty grasping the concept without the aid of a coach due to the initial unnatural feel of a correct sling supported position.

Sterling, you are again sounding like a broken record: Giving identical advice about 'elements' and 'fundamentals' of NRA sport shooting no matter what question the OPs ask in a Thread. We get it: You shoot NRA high power. You're good at it. Good for you. Here the OP's question had nothing to do with the kind of sling shooting you are familiar with - the same kind of sling shooting that you assume no one else understands and no one else can achieve. The OP isn't a moron. He is simply seeking advice outside of your singular area of expertise.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The OP isn't a moron.

I hate being the OP. But it is the price you have to pay to get some advice. Being the OP is like playing dead for vultures that end up motherfucking my OP. Carry on.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

That's why I suggested a sling that works for that kind of activity.

Actually you suggested a sling that works well for a SPR/SPS platform (as demonstrated in the video and one I use on my bolt gun) not for a CARBINE as the OP stated he is using. The TAB sling is great for it's intended use but there is no way I would use it or recommend it to someone for use on a simple AR carbine to address the OPs stated issues.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

That's why I suggested a sling that works for that kind of activity. Sterling, you are again sounding like a broken record: Giving identical advice about 'elements' and 'fundamentals' of NRA sport shooting no matter what question the OPs ask in a Thread. We get it: You shoot NRA high power. You're good at it. Good for you. Here the OP's question had nothing to do with the kind of sling shooting you are familiar with - the same kind of sling shooting that you assume no one else understands and no one else can achieve. The OP isn't a moron. He is simply seeking advice outside of your singular area of expertise.

The OP's post suggests a need to know something in general about the concept of artificial support, to realize, in specific, a benefit with the sling, meaning the need to relax into it. For the described dilemma , the issue is sling adaptation for an ammunition placement point preventing proper sling usage. To solve his problem, the OP needs to first learn how to properly use the sling to come to understand its benefit, and then adapt it to his ammunition placement need if that is possible.

I am not drawing from my experience as a competitive shooter to grasp a remedy to the OP's problem. I am using my experience as a Squad Designated Marksman Instructor to lend a hand. What's interesting though is that anybody with a knowledge of what's important to good shooting, that's to say, anybody with an understanding of how to build a solid prone position, with or without artificial aid, could understand the core problem here. In fact, if the OP just understood how to maximize bone support and NPA in his position he might find no need for the sling at all.

 

[Graham]

Actually you suggested a sling that works well for a SPR/SPS platform (as demonstrated in the video and one I use on my bolt gun) not for a CARBINE as the OP stated he is using. The TAB sling is great for it's intended use but there is no way I would use it or recommend it to someone for use on a simple AR carbine to address the OPs stated issues.

I suggested a sling that in its various iterations is in use on hundreds of thousands of carbines.

Stated issues: It attaches at two points; it works very well with chest pouches and transitions because it has an adjustable amount of slack; he doesn't want to use the shooting hand to give slack so he can set it up so that if he had time he can use the shooting hand to reduce the slack; and it enables him to do what he said he wants to be able to do, which is to quickly rotate the rifle out of the way.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I suggested a sling that in its various iterations is in use on hundreds of thousands of carbines.

Stated issues: It attaches at two points; it works very well with chest pouches and transitions because it has an adjustable amount of slack; he doesn't want to use the shooting hand to give slack so he can set it up so that if he had time he can use the shooting hand to reduce the slack; and it enables him to do what he said he wants to be able to do, which is to quickly rotate the rifle out of the way.

Holy cow, I cannot believe I am entertaining this.

The OPs issues have NOTHING to do with prone shooting or shooting with a precision rifle sling. In fact the only similar thing about his issue is that he is using a "sling". Having spent time in combat in both theaters along with other places in the world and having trained 671 people in 43 classes this year alone in the use of a Carbine rifle, never once have I seen a TAB or precision rifle specific sling used by anyone who wasn't carrying a SPR. So your "hundreds of thousands" statement is spurious.

The OP's issue has nothing to do with what type of sling he is using but with how he is employing it on his weapon system in conjunction with how his kit is currently set up. Lets entertain your suggestion and say he was/is using the sling you mentioned above or ANY sling out there right now. The OP's issue would still remain and prove problematic to him if he used it in the manner in which he is currently using it. In this instance the type of sling is immaterial and a moot point. The manner in which the OP is employing his sling and the attachment point being used is conducive for using the sling as a means of retaining the weapon to the user more so than for providing the user a solid and stable shooting platform,specifically while standing/kneeling and while shooting on the move.

Have you ever used a CARBINE with the sling configured(attached to the weapon) in the manner in which the OP described? Have you ever tried to conduct a magazine change and or immediate action drills with a weapon configured this way with the magazines located on your chest/waist as the OP described? If you had, I seriously doubt we would be having this conversation as you would know and understand the issues the OP is having. The only way to use the weapon as the OP described and be able to conduct magazine changes/immediate action drills is to leave it loose enough to allow the range of movement needed to accomplish the task. In doing this, the sling is no longer capable of providing support to the shooter in the manner which the OP is trying to obtain from his sling,plus the weapon now hangs/dangles low on the shooter when hands free.

Hopefully you (and anyone else) can now recognize the source of the issue the OP is having and address it appropriately.

 

[kraigWY]

I guess I'm old school. My father was a product of WWII and Korea, back when the Army taught and used the M1907 type sling. So that's what he taught me. I used it as an Infantryman in Vietnam, agreed then I used the web sling but used it in the same manner. I of course refined it in my almost 40 years of competition shooting, with the M1, M14, AR, and my hunting rifles.

So lets address the OP's question:

I can either tension the sling to where it provides a bit of positive feedback when in my shooting stance allowing for much tighter control of the rifle and a somewhat supported hold due to the sling having the slack taken out. The problem I run into with this is that while it allows a better/stronger shooting platform, reloads from any kind of front/chest magazine pouch is damn near impossible as you cannot move the rifle forward or to the side more than an inch or two, due to no slack.

I contend with the M1907 "two point" sling, you can do both, have the tension you need for a "better/stronger shooting platform" and/or load from a "front/chest magazine pouch".

Or run to cover or immediate action drills, low crawl or just about any other action you need to take with a rifle/carbine.

It's a simple procedure of dropping the butt stock from your shoulder while keeping the sling on the support arm. The rear or tail of the sling is still attached to the rear sling swivel.

That's the way I had my Model 700 set up in LE Counter/Sniper days, and its the way I hunt today. It's rather simple to rig the sling up as you would in high power, then drop it from your shoulder and crawl several hundred yards sneaking up on an antelope then having your "better/stronger shooting platform" for a near instant shot before they book.

It's even possible to crawl as above, and keep the set up while you reach in your pocket for your revolver to take care of the problem when you come nose to nose with a rattler. I know this because I did it season before last.

I know, its old school, but when I went through basic in '66, we had "old school" Korean War vets as drill sgts, that's how they taught us to crawl under wire and through mud in the infiltration course.

Not sure I know how but I think I'm gonna do a video on using the M1907 type sling for situations OTHER then high power.

The only problem I see with the M1907 sling is it's not tacti-cool. It's too old school.

Anyway the OP asked for our thoughts, I thought we presented them, our thoughts that is.

But I could be wrong, not the first time and it wont be the last.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit to add:

I too have and still teach rifle shooting, Sniper, HP, CMP GSM, etc. But lets go back a bit. Us old school guys use to do what we then called (don't know what its called now. Traveling, Traveling overwatch, and overwatch (I think that's the term)

Traveling, where contact is not considered. Slung on soulder.
Traveling overwatch where contact is not expected but possible, First plt. carries the rifle set up with the sling, but not in the shoulder, the following plts carried it slung on shoulder.
Over what, first manover fireteam carries it ready to go but the rifle stock not in the shoulder (takes a nano second to get it there) and the overwatch fireteam has the sling set up for shooting, and covering the other fire team.

Did a ton of field fire courses and this method provided better hits then not using the sling for hits.

 

[Graham]

Having spent time in combat in both theaters along with other places in the world and having trained 671 people in 43 classes this year alone in the use of a Carbine rifle, never once have I seen a TAB or precision rifle specific sling used by anyone who wasn't carrying a SPR. So your "hundreds of thousands" statement is spurious.

I once trained a grandmother to use a slingshot, bought her a sniper tab on the internet, gave her a stapler and an office in the basement, and told her to fill-out forms. My numbers statement was conservative: The actual number of two-point low-carry slings in use, given minor design changes, is in the millions. And how to employ it was the point of my posts.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I contend with the M1907 "two point" sling, you can do both, have the tension you need for a "better/stronger shooting platform" and/or load from a "front/chest magazine pouch".

Kraig, I am very familiar with the M1907 sling, I used it on a M-24 while going through SOTIC during the NRA qual shoots. It works good for that type of shooting and on weapon platforms that can support it, such as the numerous weapons it's been used on since WW II. The technique you describe is pictured here I believe.
Fulton Armory FAQ: The use of the Model of 1907 sling.

It is slow to adjust and it's being leather present other issues in certain environments but modern versions of it have made this a moot point.

The problem with your suggestion on how to conduct a magazine change is that it requires the shooter to remove his firing hand from the weapon. While technically/mechanically you can do it, the technique you describe is extremely inefficient (slow)for application on an AR platform given the location of the magazine release and the bolt release to name just a few.

For discussion sake, let say we hooked up a M1907 sling to the same attachment points the OP is currently using and he adjusted it to provide the tension and support he is seeking. The OP would still have the same issues with conducting a magazine change,etc as I stated before. However, if the OP were to move the forward sling attachment point out the far end of the barrel/rail, he would be able to use the sling in the same manner as I initially described above and as it is demonstrated in the Ares video. The only draw back would be the adjustability or lack of a quick adjustability found on the M1907.

The terms Traveling, Traveling overwatch, and bounding still apply however the rifle is always carried in ones hands regardless of the type of formation one is in. The only time a weapon is slung on ones shoulder is during ceremonies/parades.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I once trained a grandmother to use a slingshot, bought her a sniper tab on the internet, gave her a stapler and an office in the basement, and told her to fill-out forms. My numbers statement was conservative: The actual number of two-point low-carry slings in use, given minor design changes, is in the millions. And how to employ it was the point of my posts.

That is not what you said or even implied by any stretch; you are grasping at straws now. If you want to have an intelligent conversation by all means please contribute to the discussion in a positive manner.

 

[Graham]

If you want to have an intelligent conversation by all means please contribute to the discussion in a positive manner.

I'm not that intelligent, but I'll try...

The only time a weapon is slung on ones shoulder is during ceremonies/parades.

I must have missed so very many while otherwise occupied, but I do love a parade. Here's a carbine in use while grasping not at straws. The footage is a bit grainy but hopefully you get the idea:

Israeli Soldiers get ambushed by Hamas - 2 Translation(s) | Dotsub

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I'm not that intelligent, but I'll try...

I must have missed so very many while otherwise occupied, but I do love a parade. Here's a carbine in use while grasping not at straws. The footage is a bit grainy but hopefully you get the idea:

Israeli Soldiers get ambushed by Hamas - 2 Translation(s) | Dotsub

Once again, you are making no sense and you're posting totally irrelevant subject matter. I now see what Sterling Shooter said above in post #10 is indeed factual about you. Please do everyone a favor and refrain from commenting on things you clearly have no background in and or understanding of.

 

[Graham]

Once again, you are making no sense and you're posting totally irrelevant subject matter. I now see what Sterling Shooter said above in post #10 is indeed factual about you. Please do everyone a favor and refrain from commenting on things you clearly have no background in and or understanding of.

You might want to look up the definition of relevance. Then again, you won't be able to continue claiming to be a victim if you stop blaming others when they prove you wrong. But I'll defer to your vast knowledge, and to Sterling's One Trick Pony, because I'm sure others care about how many people you've taught and that you've been to SOTIC.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

All right then, it's clear you cannot converse knowledgeably about this topic or even like an adult, so I am done speaking with you.

To the OP, sorry for the thread drift. As the old saying goes...."there is always one" and we've found ours.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Well, it is an interesting thread about a sling on a rifle that has been in use for over 55 years. In the Air Force we used the GAU-5 (carbine). The sling was just a sling. But that's Air Force. WTF do we know about slings. I did observe grunts and jarheads taking their slings a little more seriously. But they were not using carbine AR but it's not a stretch (no pun intended). Those came after Reagan. I do like this answer because it sounds familiar...

Traveling, where contact is not considered. Slung on soulder.
Traveling overwatch where contact is not expected but possible, First plt. carries the rifle set up with the sling, but not in the shoulder, the following plts carried it slung on shoulder.
Over what, first manover fireteam carries it ready to go but the rifle stock not in the shoulder (takes a nano second to get it there) and the overwatch fireteam has the sling set up for shooting, and covering the other fire team.

Did a ton of field fire courses and this method provided better hits then not using the sling for hits.

BTW, for some strange reason I did find Graham's ambush video instructional if you are in this line of business these days. I had to watch it several times but you have to admit it is pretty awesome. Fucking Israelis!!! I'm sure Hamas uses it today. How to not fuck up an ambush. The fire discipline by the Israelis is textbook. Never mind the in your face courage being displayed. Watch what the Iraelis are doing.

 

[Graham]

BTW, for some strange reason I did find Graham's ambush video instructional if you are in this line of business these days. I had to watch it several times but you have to admit it is pretty awesome. Fucking Israelis!!! I'm sure Hamas uses it today. How to not fuck up an ambush. The fire discipline by the Israelis is textbook. Never mind the in your face courage being displayed. Watch what the Iraelis are doing.

Glad you enjoyed the 'thread drift' that wasn't, because it's on point. That Golani squad leader wasn't on parade.

 

[Graham]

Pictured here are some of the millions who, according some who post here, have 'no background in or understanding of' sling use:

 

[TheGerman]

Wow, what's going on here

Read through the posts and I appreciate everyone's input and can see why certain points are being made. As mentioned above, this sling is utilized on a 16 inch AR platform that hosts a suppressor and is my go-to weapon in the need of defense as well is the weapon I use for dynamic/moving/non-static target shooting and training for distances up to around 300 yards (non-magnified Eotech or irons) but usually much closer. This is also the weapon I am using with my newly acquired PVS14 setup for night hunting; this is why I've gotten into training much more with this platform as of late. The sling I have for it differs from my other weapons; my Mk12Mod1 has a TIS quick release sling similar to the one in the video above from TAB. My bolt guns either have a TIS sling or a Turner M1907 sling; I know how to use them and do understand the fundamentals of sling usage as well as bone support. Doubt I would have graduated from Hammelburg if I didn't.

While everyone here made valid points, my question really went towards the utilization of the current 'carbine specific' sling I have. This is your usual 2 point VTAC sling designed specifically for these types of platforms for reasons PZT touched on as well as my personal experiences with 1907 type slings being utilized for dynamic shooting with distances at 200m or less. I'm not a High Power shooter, I'm not really a competition type shooter, I'm more of a realist and train for what I've seen firsthand in the past. 1907 type slings have their place, but the benefit you receive from being slung up in the cuff is quite a hindrance in real-time seeing as how the damn rifle is now attached to you and pocketed in your shoulder.

The problem I have/had is that while trying to utilize proper sling tension while firing and moving, I could not reload the rifle properly as the reduction in slack to achieve proper tension/support did not give me any working space for a mag change. my initial dilemma was do I simply say screw it, I'm shooting at 200m or less I can just use the sling primarily as a carrying tool as to not tension it and run into a reloading issue, or is there a way around this to where I can have my cake and eat it as well? The first video PZT posted speaks to the issue of 'knocking' the sling out of the way to reload; I also need to move the forward attachment point up as suggested as well. Needs some practice, but I can already see where I can now get it to work while allowing myself the luxury of added support from the sling yet not incurring a disadvantage when needing to reload.

 

[proneshooter]

The OP's post suggests a need to know something in general about the concept of artificial support, to realize, in specific, a benefit with the sling, meaning the need to relax into it. For the described dilemma , the issue is sling adaptation for an ammunition placement point preventing proper sling usage. To solve his problem, the OP needs to first learn how to properly use the sling to come to understand its benefit, and then adapt it to his ammunition placement need if that is possible.

I am not drawing from my experience as a competitive shooter to grasp a remedy to the OP's problem. I am using my experience as a Squad Designated Marksman Instructor to lend a hand. What's interesting though is that anybody with a knowledge of what's important to good shooting, that's to say, anybody with an understanding of how to build a solid prone position, with or without artificial aid, could understand the core problem here. In fact, if the OP just understood how to maximize bone support and NPA in his position he might find no need for the sling at all.

WTF.......

Please stop. Just stop.

 

[ptrlcop]

Have been getting more into dynamic AR carbine shooting lately and have been going back and forth with an issue I am having with the 2 point sling setup I use in regards to the tension (or lack of slack) in the sling while shooting.

The issue is universal with any type of adjustable 2 point (VTAC, Ares, etc) and if it matters, I am using 2 QD swivels with the front in the LaRue quad rail internal mount and the rear on the QD hole in the MagPul CTR stock. I do not want to switch to a single, or 3 point.

The dilemma is pretty simple;

I can either tension the sling to where it provides a bit of positive feedback when in my shooting stance allowing for much tighter control of the rifle and a somewhat supported hold due to the sling having the slack taken out. The problem I run into with this is that while it allows a better/stronger shooting platform, reloads from any kind of front/chest magazine pouch is damn near impossible as you cannot move the rifle forward or to the side more than an inch or two, due to no slack. The only resolution I see to this is reaching with the shooting hand to slack the sling which is NOT something I want to do.

The other side is that the sling serves mainly as something that keeps the rifle slung on my body due to not having much tension on it while shooting and it not providing much of an aide platform wise, but allows for me to rotate the carbine away from my body (mag towards me) and allows for access to magazines.

Common sense is telling me to use the sling as just that, a sling for the carbine to be able to carry the rifle on my body and not try to 'fix' something and in the process hindering something very crucial. Thoughts?

Reading your last post it seems you may have it figured out, however Ill give you my 2 pennies. Few shots made by a general use/defensive carbine(Im thinking 50yds in) really require any sort of sling support and it is not worth trading support for range of motion. There are times however, when making having the support is nice. In those situations, you tend to have some distance between you and your target so trading speed/range of motion for precison becomes worth it. I would suggest running the sling loose for normal stuff and only tighten it down for the shots that require it. I run my VTAC that way. I attatch the rear of the sling to the outboard QD on my stock and have a forward QD just behind where my support hand normaly grips the rail. I have tried running the forward attachment all the way forward and it got in the way of my light operation.

The sling on a modern, general purpose carbine is analogous to a holster for your pistol(holds it easily accessable while performing non gun tasks). A 1907/strap sling does not fill that requirement.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

I'm reluctant to enter in to this train wreck but to attempt to provide some help to the OP. The reason for the development of the "quick adjust" sling is to address the problem you are having (and similar) with the two point sling. For CQB and ease/flexibility of motion you need less tension and more freedom but when you are opting to use the sling to stabilize your platform at range you need to tighten it up to provide the correct hold. With training it is a pretty efficient tool but I understand your concern regarding the manipulation under stress. What works for me is I mount the front QD swivel on the offhand side of the weapon (instead of directly underneath) so that when it is tight for shooting at range it is clear when making magazine changes. Also, as ptrlcop has suggested I run mine loose and only tighten it up when I have the opportunity to utilize it as an aid otherwise just march on.

 

[Strykervet]

I use those small Troy rail attachments and the QD sling loops too. I also have a leather sling on my shooter, but I can throw a Vickers on it too. I have a couple of the Vickers, mostly used on a couple of M4's. They were designed to wear over the body, to sling the rifle, but keep it ready to use. Just pull it up and shoot. I'm assuming you have the Vickers by the explanation, I think VTAC is another word for 'em.

You should also call and talk to them. They may be able to give you pointers. I'm sure they've tried everything possible with that sling and can tell you more about it than anyone else. Really, really awesome CS too.

Anyway, I have one I tightened up to use like you mention, as a makeshift shooting sling. However, I just put my hand in there very hasty as opposed to wrapping my arm in it. I use the sling sort of as a Jack of all Trades. To reload, yeah, I have to break the grip, but I don't have to mess with adjustments at all. The slider was intended to be used to make the sling quickly adjustable from armor to no armor and to allow it to "open up" to give more freedom of movement. One I have has a Fastex buckle that drops the whole thing fast --or allows it to attach to Molle gear or whatever as a QD one piece attachment at the stock. And they make good gear, Vickers does. Or Blue Force or whatever.

If you want a dual purpose sling that allows you to have a makeshift shooter sling (I mean with bicep tightened in sling just like you'd use for NM) a hasty sling and a 2 point carry sling all in one, what we did at SDM school was to modify an M14 sling into one using the adjustable slider it has on it, up front, near middle. Near the rear, it was modified with an open buckle that allowed tension to be created on the arm like the 1907 sling. Unlike the 1097 sling, it is lighter, smaller, and can be quickly adjusted to a carry sling. If you can get the M14 hardware, you can use a silent nylon sling instead, though they are harder to mark than the cotton (we marked our different shooting positions on the sling, seated, standing, etc.). It is a very good poor mans solution and was used extensively in Iraq early on. To this date, nobody I know makes a sling that does quite what this makeshift one will do.

 

[Exo]

stryker, I dont think Vickers and VTAC are associated. VTAC is Vikings Tactical, Vickers is Vickers Tactical (i could be wrong).

I personally use a TROY Battlesling (two point, with a bungee section) ... (i think its somehow associated with VTAC, but i dont know) and troy QD mounts. I put the gun up where I wanted it, and had a buddy tighten it up to my liking. Its very stable, and rides well against my person. I can get it from a non supported slung position to a contact ready position just by lifting it up (kind of automatic), and be able to rotate it 180* while being in my workspace, as well as slide it to my support side for a transition to my sidearm.

Troy BattleSling ? Two Point Rapid Adjust | New
and
Troy Q.D. 360 Rail Mount - Push Button|BattleRail Accessories|BattleSlings|Sling Accessories|Sling Mounts|Troy Industries| | Rail Sling Mounts

 

[ptrlcop]

The Vtac and Vickers slings are both 2pt adjustable slings. The Vtac was designed by Kyle Lamb and the Vickers by Larry Vickers/Blue force gear. I have both, they are different and I prefer the Vtac because it is more adjustable.

 

[bullseye13]

German, have you looked at the Armageddon gear carbine sling? I have one and like it. With the bungee you have movement and the ability to be snug, then stretch it for mounting the weapon or mag changes.

 

[TheGerman]

Reading your last post it seems you may have it figured out, however Ill give you my 2 pennies. Few shots made by a general use/defensive carbine(Im thinking 50yds in) really require any sort of sling support and it is not worth trading support for range of motion. There are times however, when making having the support is nice. In those situations, you tend to have some distance between you and your target so trading speed/range of motion for precison becomes worth it. I would suggest running the sling loose for normal stuff and only tighten it down for the shots that require it. I run my VTAC that way. I attatch the rear of the sling to the outboard QD on my stock and have a forward QD just behind where my support hand normaly grips the rail. I have tried running the forward attachment all the way forward and it got in the way of my light operation.

The sling on a modern, general purpose carbine is analogous to a holster for your pistol(holds it easily accessable while performing non gun tasks). A 1907/strap sling does not fill that requirement.

I ran into exactly this while practicing a bit with the sling this week. Seems if I tighten the sling enough to have a good range of motion yet enough tension to put my left (weak) hand between the sling and carbine handguard to allow for some support my reload time slows WAY down. From watching mag changes from carbine classes online as well as some instructors, it seems the sling is used mainly to have an attachment point to your body rather than support, yet still offering some support option with mobility/mag changes being the aspects receiving the negative of this.

I'm too used to shooting precision rifle where if you're not supported you feel 'off'.