My daughter Cait just shot her first 600 yrd FTR competition and she did great. She went home and I helped her order a Savage 12 FTR as this is a great starter rifle as she learns long distance shooting skills. her, and my question is this. She has identified the Sightron SIIISS10-50X60LRTD "cross hairs with a dot in middle", as what she thinks she would like ( $ 1039 ). Her reasoning is price starting in and it's great reviews. I think she is right. But here is the thing. There are so many variations of this scope with respect to Reticle type. I don't think she needs the mil dot style as she already knows the distance. With the fore mentioned reticle type being one dot .125 in the middle of the cross hairs I think that is all she needs for F class shooting. I would appreciate any thoughts on this as we really are not sure yet and haven't gone to many matches yet. But she wants to get something asap that she wont out grow and that will get her off on the right track. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Jimmy
F T/R Competition My Daughter needs some help with scope choice and reticle type. Newby
- Thread starter JIMMICHANGA
- Start date
That scope is a good choice for F/TR, probably the best choice from Sightron for F/TR.
For about $400 more, you can get a Nightforce 12-42 x 56 Bench Rest scope.
For about $300 on top of that, you can get a discontinued Nightforce 12-42 NXS.
For about $600 on top of that, you can get the new Nightforce Competition scope.
I agree that mil dot is not the proper tool for this application. F class is known distance shooting. Also, moa is a finer adjusment than mil, and getting a scope w/ 1/8 moa turrets will give you the fine adjustment needed for F class.
For about $400 more, you can get a Nightforce 12-42 x 56 Bench Rest scope.
For about $300 on top of that, you can get a discontinued Nightforce 12-42 NXS.
For about $600 on top of that, you can get the new Nightforce Competition scope.
I agree that mil dot is not the proper tool for this application. F class is known distance shooting. Also, moa is a finer adjusment than mil, and getting a scope w/ 1/8 moa turrets will give you the fine adjustment needed for F class.
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Wow the NF 12-42 x56 NXS in NP-R2 looks soooo sweet. $$$$$
Yes the moa is the way to go for her. Anybody have a used NF like this for sale?
Jimmy
Yes the moa is the way to go for her. Anybody have a used NF like this for sale?
Jimmy
Look in classifieds here and on accurate shooter and bench rest forum and maybe savage shooters forum. There were quite a few of the 12 x 42's for sale for a while because people were selling them to upgrade to the new Competition scope. I don't think that Sightron will hold her back for a very long time, if ever. Check longrangesupply, bigsupplyshop.com and swfa for prices on sightron. I think big supply had a really good price on them a while back.
Just looked and longrangesupply has that Sightron scope in stock for $861.95. Don is a great guy, too. Might ask him about a used or demo Nightforce
as well.
Also, nice job on getting your daughter into Long Range shooting. It will be something you can enjoy together.
Just looked and longrangesupply has that Sightron scope in stock for $861.95. Don is a great guy, too. Might ask him about a used or demo Nightforce
as well.
Also, nice job on getting your daughter into Long Range shooting. It will be something you can enjoy together.
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Huge Thanks
Ya she is a great kid and becoming a hell of a marksman. Its a lot of fun for me as well. Thanks for your help. Jimmy
Ya she is a great kid and becoming a hell of a marksman. Its a lot of fun for me as well. Thanks for your help. Jimmy
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The new NF Competition scope has caused a lot of 12-42s to come on the market.
The Sightron is a fine scope, I wouldn't hesitate to use one. The reticle is personal, from Sightron I'd get either a fine cross hair or the one she is looking at with the dot if the dot was not too big.
I have another question, is she going to be shooting long range or just 600? The reason for the question is that if you are shooting 600 and not 1000 I would get a 223 barrel and bolt (or just a bolt head) and shoot 223s at 600. You can easily push the 80Amax close to 2900 (actually you can get faster) and at 600 yards it only loses about .3 inches to a top fuel 308 running on the ragged edge, and is as good or better than the rest of the 308s on the line. (I just got mine put together) Recoil from a 223 in an 18 lb rifle isn't much more than a 22lr, bullets are cheaper, brass it plentiful from Lake City, and you use about 1/2 the powder. You will pay for all the changes and equipment in the cost of bullets alone in the first barrel. (80gr Amax run about $18/100, Berger 308s of any flavor run about $48/100) By the time you shoot out the barrel you'll have saved about $900 is bullets alone.
I ordered a barrel from McGowan, throated it out long, screwed it into my Savage target action and bought a 223 bolt from Midway. My cost was ~$325 for the prefit from McGowan, $125 for the bolt from Midway (I now have 2 bolts one with a 308 face and one in 223) and $99 for the hand throater from PTG, and $50 for the go-nogo gauges. Took it to the range yesterday and it's shooting .5 vertical from 600 first time out. Don't discount the recoil thing. I'm by no means afraid of recoil, but I could really learn to like the way this rifle shoots. Having the scope on max magnification never leave the target is kind of neat.
The Sightron is a fine scope, I wouldn't hesitate to use one. The reticle is personal, from Sightron I'd get either a fine cross hair or the one she is looking at with the dot if the dot was not too big.
I have another question, is she going to be shooting long range or just 600? The reason for the question is that if you are shooting 600 and not 1000 I would get a 223 barrel and bolt (or just a bolt head) and shoot 223s at 600. You can easily push the 80Amax close to 2900 (actually you can get faster) and at 600 yards it only loses about .3 inches to a top fuel 308 running on the ragged edge, and is as good or better than the rest of the 308s on the line. (I just got mine put together) Recoil from a 223 in an 18 lb rifle isn't much more than a 22lr, bullets are cheaper, brass it plentiful from Lake City, and you use about 1/2 the powder. You will pay for all the changes and equipment in the cost of bullets alone in the first barrel. (80gr Amax run about $18/100, Berger 308s of any flavor run about $48/100) By the time you shoot out the barrel you'll have saved about $900 is bullets alone.
I ordered a barrel from McGowan, throated it out long, screwed it into my Savage target action and bought a 223 bolt from Midway. My cost was ~$325 for the prefit from McGowan, $125 for the bolt from Midway (I now have 2 bolts one with a 308 face and one in 223) and $99 for the hand throater from PTG, and $50 for the go-nogo gauges. Took it to the range yesterday and it's shooting .5 vertical from 600 first time out. Don't discount the recoil thing. I'm by no means afraid of recoil, but I could really learn to like the way this rifle shoots. Having the scope on max magnification never leave the target is kind of neat.
I have the sightron, get the one with the fine crosshairs for the least obstruction to the x ring!
XTR Thanks for all this great advice and knowledge. This is pretty confusing stuff for a newbie. It is still several weeks before her Savage 12 arrives so we have time to do our homework. Fine cross hairs, small dot if a dot, hashmarks maybe? She will be shooting 600 as well as 1000. I appreciate the cost comparison, another consideration. WOW this is fun. It's a great opportunity to spend time with her and do something we both enjoy. When we do decide on a scope I will be sure to post our decision and why. I am still interested however in others points of view as this is a big expense starting out for her and we want to do it right. We will also look at buying something used. That might be the way to go. Rifle, Scope, Bullet, Shooter, they all have to work right together. Thanks Jimmy
I have a SIII 10-50x60 LRTD mounted on my F/TR rifle. Great scope.
On another note we have questions regarding power. There are the 8-32x56 and the 10-50x60 scopes. Which ones are used most by F class shooters and why. My daughter and i keep arguing about which to get for someone just starting out. I say 8-32 she says 10-50. Neither of us have much experience with long range. Just don't know what to do about power. It seems like shooters only go up to 24x in their scopes capability due to mirage so what difference does it make?
A couple of reasons to stick with the minim amount of "power" needed. First is that mirage can be a big issue with high magnification. Second, higher magnifications often limit the amount of elevation one can get from the scope adjustment and a tapered mount is often required.
I've had many "experts" tell me to stick to 24X for those reasons. That said, I shoot with a 12X42X NightForce. My eyes are older and I need all the help I can get.
BTW, kids often make great marksmen when taught right. They have fewer bad habits than those among us that are established in our ways. Good to hear a young girl is getting interested in the sport. I have a granddaughter that's getting ready to shoot with me and is actually getting excited about it. We'll see if it lasts once she breaks a fingernail or finds out how hard it can be lying on rocky ground shooting prone
On another note we have questions regarding power. There are the 8-32x56 and the 10-50x60 scopes. Which ones are used most by F class shooters and why. My daughter and i keep arguing about which to get for someone just starting out. I say 8-32 she says 10-50. Neither of us have much experience with long range. Just don't know what to do about power. It seems like shooters only go up to 24x in their scopes capability due to mirage so what difference does it make?
I appreciate your advice. I am leaning toward the lower magnification scope as well for the same reasons. It's probably a good power to learn on,8-32x56. It's hard to explain that to her though when so many are using the higher magnifications. Her eyesight is great and I hope she chooses correctly. I want it to be her choice though. If others will add their preference it may help her decide. Then again....well see. I'l let you know what she does and her reason soon.
I wonder how many of those who are using the 40X+ magnifications actually have dialed them down to a more manageable power when the mirage is running strong?
If she insists on a high magnification scope then at least get one of the higher end scopes that isn't saddled with less than optimum optics to add to the mirage issue. For the extra expense, maybe she could kick in some extra $$ herself.
Get the highest magnification scope that you can afford.
A variable will allow you to dial down if you find the mirage to be too intense, so something like a 10-50 or 12-42 or something with a top end in the 30X and 40X or more is just fine.
With the high magnification you can be very precise in placing the reticle on the target; the F-class targets have minuscule X and 10-rings, so you need surgical precisions.
Higher magnification does not mean less adjustment range, how could it? The adjustment range is a function of the diameter of the main tube and the diameter of the internal erector tube. It has nothing to do with magnification. What a higher magnification scope has less of is field of view and that can create an issue with getting the shooter to crossfire on the wrong target because he or she is not seeing the target number in the scope while concentrating on the target. I've never done that. Today.
It's better to be able to dial down than not being able to dial up.
A variable will allow you to dial down if you find the mirage to be too intense, so something like a 10-50 or 12-42 or something with a top end in the 30X and 40X or more is just fine.
With the high magnification you can be very precise in placing the reticle on the target; the F-class targets have minuscule X and 10-rings, so you need surgical precisions.
Higher magnification does not mean less adjustment range, how could it? The adjustment range is a function of the diameter of the main tube and the diameter of the internal erector tube. It has nothing to do with magnification. What a higher magnification scope has less of is field of view and that can create an issue with getting the shooter to crossfire on the wrong target because he or she is not seeing the target number in the scope while concentrating on the target. I've never done that. Today.
It's better to be able to dial down than not being able to dial up.
We shoot a lot when it is HOT. Central Kalifornia is hot, and the mirage can be awful. So shooters I think must dial down again suggesting a scope that is in the 8-32 range. I just wonder if the folks on the line really use that higher magnification beyond say 32x.
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The Sightron SIII 8-32x56mm LR TD/TDT 1/8 MOA clicks and 1/8 MOA dot reticle Featuring the new 1/8 MOA click benchrest knobs is what we are considering as of right now. The reticle looks like this.
don't forget to buy a mirage band, anyway
Yeah, you're probably right. I'm in South Texas and so I don't know anything about mirage. I run my scope at 42X virtually all the time, just like most of the other folks on the line beside me. Thanks for setting me straight. Yeah, it must be a pecker size thing.
just to be clear.
Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise. Look on the line at any National, last yr 90% were NF 12-42s, and pretty much every one of them would have jumped on a March 10-50 or higher if they weren't so damned expensive. This yr about half of those will be the new NF competition *-55x. You are trying to hold on a 5" X ring at 1000 yards, do you want to see where you are holding or just guess?
You can always dial down.
The only time I dial down is when it's humid and hot and it gets soupy. I never touched the ring at Raton last yr.
Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise. Look on the line at any National, last yr 90% were NF 12-42s, and pretty much every one of them would have jumped on a March 10-50 or higher if they weren't so damned expensive. This yr about half of those will be the new NF competition *-55x. You are trying to hold on a 5" X ring at 1000 yards, do you want to see where you are holding or just guess?
You can always dial down.
The only time I dial down is when it's humid and hot and it gets soupy. I never touched the ring at Raton last yr.
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Ya I think I get it. You can always dial down. What is your opinion on the fine cross hair, .125 dot in middle. ???
I had such a reticle in my Weaver T-36 scope prior to my NF 12-42. I liked it very much, simple, uncluttered and easy to place on target and track. My NF is an NP-2DD, also simple, uncluttered and has an aiming dot.
Thanks Deadshot2, XTR and Denys for your informative remarks. i'm going to have my Daughter Caitlin read this thread which I think will help her make a decision. I'm going to send it to her email account as thats's the way these kids communicate these days. They would rather hear it through a machine. Sad face. Hi honey I love you. Dad.
Yah right, you Texans know hot! No question about that. Denys I think you set it right. 10-50 Sightron is what we can afford in the fore mentioned reticle and I think she will be ready to go.
I'll post picture of her and her new set up as soon as possible. Again Huge Thank you to all. Cait is a great marksman and your comments, suggestions are going to get her off to a great start. Thank you.
Perhaps I made an incomplete statement. NightForce will tell you straight out that there one can run of adjustment with their 12-42X models and recommend either a longer range zero or a high MOA base. Especially at long distances so the shooter is using the clearest portion of the optics (the center).
One thing certain about scopes. Just about any "issue" can be overcome by money.
I am a big proponent of canted rails and I like to keep my scope as close to mechanical zero as possible, using the sweet spot of the scope for the majority of my shooting. It's easier on the adjustment screws and springs.
Not to mention a clearer picture, avoiding all the distortions possible when not using the best part of the lense(s). That said, this is often what makes a great scope cost as much as a good used car. The ability to use MORE of he lense and having adjustment mechanisms that can handle the extra movement.
Correct, that's what is called "the sweet spot of the lens". The bigger the lens the bigger the sweet spot and the clearer the lens. You can see that comparing the image you get from a quality spotting scope to the image from a quality rifle scope. Now the lenses in the erector tube (this tube does not exist in a spotting scope), the zoom lenses and eyepiece will all be in one line so the middle of the image you see is all in the sweet spot of those lenses. The only difference will be the objective lens, that big one up front. The erector lens tube will be pointing up and down and right to left on that lens and since its the most important lens in terms of capturing the picture of the target and focusing it in the tube, it is best to be able to use the sweetest spot as possible because the other lenses cannot make up whatever distortion the objective lens creates. So, yes, canted rails and so on are the way to go here.
Now bigger internal lenses mean that you have less internal adjustment space. Some scope manufacturers use the extra 4.6mm afforded by a 30mm tube over a one inch tube to provide for larger adjustment range; others use this extra room to make bigger (better) internal lenses and so you have only 40MOA of internal adjustment in a 30mm tube, where other 30mm tubes have 60 or even 80MOA+ of adjustment range. Enter the 34mm tubes and lots more $$$. Everything has trade-offs in riflescopes.
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Like the old saying in Motorsports, "Nothing goes as fast as CUBIC MONEY".
I thought I was in the "Big Money" when I bought a $2500 scope. Wasn't even mounted when I realized that was half of what they COULD cost.
I shoot F-class with a 10-50 sightron; I always use the 50 power, even in the heat.
We just ordered a Sightron SIII 10-50x 60 in the LRTD which is fine cross hairs with .125 Dot in center reticle. It was a compromise with the Nightforce CH-2 reticle which is very similar. I think this will be a great learning scope. She got it for $919 total from Cheaper than dirt. She plans to contact Jerry at Ken Ferral on Tuesday for one of his 20moa bases and rings. Mounted to her new Savage 12 FTR I think she is off to a great start. I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. You are a great group, Thanks.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Roger that.
We just got back from the long range match at the Fresno Range where we helped out with targets. A real widny day, 20 mph winds at times. it was fun.
Both girls had a great time but were disappointed she was not yet set up to shoot.
We also had a change of mind on the scope. one of the fellows there said that we don't want the reticle with a dot in the middle of the fine cross hairs. he said that was a bench rest scope. He insisted on the scope with fine cross hairs and hash marks so that one could gauge of-set better. so for now we have cancelled the scope order and are thinking a bit more on this. Your thoughts are always appreciated.
Thanks, See picture.
Jimmy
We just got back from the long range match at the Fresno Range where we helped out with targets. A real widny day, 20 mph winds at times. it was fun.
Both girls had a great time but were disappointed she was not yet set up to shoot.
We also had a change of mind on the scope. one of the fellows there said that we don't want the reticle with a dot in the middle of the fine cross hairs. he said that was a bench rest scope. He insisted on the scope with fine cross hairs and hash marks so that one could gauge of-set better. so for now we have cancelled the scope order and are thinking a bit more on this. Your thoughts are always appreciated.
Thanks, See picture.
Jimmy
True, the "dot in middle" reticle is more a Bench Rest Scope and the MOA/Mil-Dot reticle will give some measurement references. That said, I find myself using the target itself for my offset-holdover references even though I have the NF NPR-2 reticle. She'll be much happier with no dot in the middle and one of the reticles with MOA/Mil-dot crosshatch's. Also consider a reticle that has the large ends of the reticle just outlined. That keeps the broad marks from obscuring whatever is down-range at the edge of your field of view.
Just another $0.02 worth.
Well, I have no clue what would make her happier, dot or no dot, and I am not out to convince any one of anything (well except about the magnification thing.) Reticles are more personal than you may think. Some people like busy reticles, others like them very plain. Some rely on the hashmarks and other reticle clues to hold off, others use the circles on the target.
The dot is .125 MOA in diameter, that means, in diameter, it is one quarter the size of the X-ring on the target. This means that on a 1000 yard target, the dot will cover an apparent area of 1.2 square inches and the X-ring measures an area of just under 20 square inches. In other words, the target dot is 1/8 the size of the X-ring; that's not what I would call blotting out anything.
I use the dot to aim the scope exactly where I want the rifle to be looking on the target. I use the rings on the target to estimate the offset my shot should require. To be honest with you, I don't do MOA calculations and wind solutions in my head, I count rings. I count rings, because that's the target that we F-class shooters are dealing with; to me it's all about threading the bullet in the proper ring and I use the target to figure that out.
When I start holding a few rings out, the horizontal line on the crosshair, or the wings of the NP-2DD reticle help me keep the elevation constant relative to the X-ring. I never really had any need for the vertical line, I try to have the proper elevation because I don't want to have to deal with holding for elevation AND windage.
When using a riflescope, you do not want to become fixated on the reticle because things will soon get blurry, your eye should move around a little bit, especially if you're not shooting right away. It's just the way the eye works. I find the dot is easier for me to distinguish on the target (gray on gray) and I can keep track of it better. The fine crosshairs are too difficult for me to see sometimes, but that may not be the case for a younger person with great eyes.
The dot is .125 MOA in diameter, that means, in diameter, it is one quarter the size of the X-ring on the target. This means that on a 1000 yard target, the dot will cover an apparent area of 1.2 square inches and the X-ring measures an area of just under 20 square inches. In other words, the target dot is 1/8 the size of the X-ring; that's not what I would call blotting out anything.
I use the dot to aim the scope exactly where I want the rifle to be looking on the target. I use the rings on the target to estimate the offset my shot should require. To be honest with you, I don't do MOA calculations and wind solutions in my head, I count rings. I count rings, because that's the target that we F-class shooters are dealing with; to me it's all about threading the bullet in the proper ring and I use the target to figure that out.
When I start holding a few rings out, the horizontal line on the crosshair, or the wings of the NP-2DD reticle help me keep the elevation constant relative to the X-ring. I never really had any need for the vertical line, I try to have the proper elevation because I don't want to have to deal with holding for elevation AND windage.
When using a riflescope, you do not want to become fixated on the reticle because things will soon get blurry, your eye should move around a little bit, especially if you're not shooting right away. It's just the way the eye works. I find the dot is easier for me to distinguish on the target (gray on gray) and I can keep track of it better. The fine crosshairs are too difficult for me to see sometimes, but that may not be the case for a younger person with great eyes.
Denys,
Your advice seems sound and is appreciated.
I plan on taking Cait over to a shooters house later today who has both reticles and see what she thinks.
Also, I am curious are you a ranked shooter?
So seem very knowledgeable.
Jimmy
Your advice seems sound and is appreciated.
I plan on taking Cait over to a shooters house later today who has both reticles and see what she thinks.
Also, I am curious are you a ranked shooter?
So seem very knowledgeable.
Jimmy
We have ranks?
Denys,
My thoroughness in checking advice comes from all the know it alls on some of these chat boards. I apologize for questioning you.
After doing a quick check of your "credentials" you are more than qualified to give an expert opinion and disperse accurate knowledge.
'There are so many people giving dubious advice one just has to check the source.
I am glad that I have had the opportunity to chat with you.
Your help is much appreciated. As far as ranking, I guess I was asking what kind of marksman are you. You are obviously someone to aspire too.
Jimmy
My thoroughness in checking advice comes from all the know it alls on some of these chat boards. I apologize for questioning you.
After doing a quick check of your "credentials" you are more than qualified to give an expert opinion and disperse accurate knowledge.
'There are so many people giving dubious advice one just has to check the source.
I am glad that I have had the opportunity to chat with you.
Your help is much appreciated. As far as ranking, I guess I was asking what kind of marksman are you. You are obviously someone to aspire too.
Jimmy
Reticles are very personal. On this site you will find a lot of shooters who are/have been or at least want to think of themselves as tactical shooters. They will tend to be more familiar with and may want a reticle with hashes. Over on Accurate Shooter you get a little different set of responses. One of the responses you got over there was from Danny Biggs. If you are interested in "ranked" I'd put Danny in the #1 spot. He's held just about every F class record out there at one time or another. Danny like a whole boat load of other F class shooters likes the NP-2DD.
It really comes down to what works for the individual, much like holding off or dialing. Both work if you do it right.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/f-class-f-t-r-competition/148431-nf-reticle-f-class.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/f-class-f-t-r-competition/173314-reticle-choices.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/f-class-f-t-r-competition/92959-reticle-choice.html
Search is your friend.
It really comes down to what works for the individual, much like holding off or dialing. Both work if you do it right.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/f-class-f-t-r-competition/148431-nf-reticle-f-class.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/f-class-f-t-r-competition/173314-reticle-choices.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/f-class-f-t-r-competition/92959-reticle-choice.html
Search is your friend.
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Only after a match before I take a shower, especially in summer. My family will tell you that I am pretty rank when I come home from a match.
rank i get it
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She is right get the 10 by 50
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