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This sucker Remington AAC-SD just won't shoot...

Beepy

Beepy

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 18, 2008
156
0
The Northwest Mountains
So no matter what I've done, can't get it to shoot better than 1 MOA, I have ladder tested both Varget and 4064. Used 168 and 175 SMK's. 178 Amax, Hornady HPBT in both 168 and 178, even tried some 208 Amaxs. I've tried seating depth changes, but the throat is so long that seating to the lands leaves barely any bearing surface at the neck with the 175's. I did most of the testing at mag length. With as scarce as reloading stuff is, I'm to the point of pitching this barrel

And yes I have checked the scope and bases for tightness, I even swapped out the NF for my SWFA back up scope just to be sure. No noticeable problems I can see on the crown. I have used both the thread protector, a smith flash suppressor and a brake as well.

Anybody have any ideas before I pull the barrel? Anyone got a recipe that's working for them in this rifle? If I do pull the barrel should I just put on an after market or have this one set back, rechambered and re crowned?
 
Stock Remington barrels make great tomato stakes or dog tie-ups.

If any barrel, custom or factory, won't shoot after 200rds of testing loads you're throwing good money after bad.

Get a Brux, Bartlein, Kreiger or Douglas and be done with it.
 
Sounds like she just won't shoot. Buddy had a high $$ Kimber that was the same way. Re-crown and rebed and she still wouldn't shoot better than 3/4. He sold her and got a .204 white oak upper for his AR that was 1/4 minute all day long. Some guns just won't shoot great. I would drop a few hundred for a new barrel and I bet it will shoot great.
 
I second the barrel upgrade; a high quality barrel installed by a good smith with make all the difference in the world. Plus, sell that barrel to offset the cost of the new one.
 
Consider Tubb's Final finish before diving into another barrel. Results are amazing. Not sure what you want to achieve but final finish will cut it in half for $30-$40. If you want better than .5 moa save your change and throw down for a new barrel.
 
Have you run any factory ammo through it? I have the AAC-SD and it does well with FGMM.

The Tubb system has been mentioned, and I would love to see a good quality before and after. I have seen many people preach the virtues of the Tubb system, but I haven't seen an extremely well documented sample. I would be interested in the deltas (velocity, copper fouling, group size...etc.).

If you would be willing to do a good quality test I would be willing to donate some money or ammo to the cause.

Chip
 
Beepy said:
So no matter what I've done, can't get it to shoot better than 1 MOA, I have ladder tested both Varget and 4064. Used 168 and 175 SMK's. 178 Amax, Hornady HPBT in both 168 and 178, even tried some 208 Amaxs. I've tried seating depth changes, but the throat is so long that seating to the lands leaves barely any bearing surface at the neck with the 175's. I did most of the testing at mag length. With as scarce as reloading stuff is, I'm to the point of pitching this barrel

And yes I have checked the scope and bases for tightness, I even swapped out the NF for my SWFA back up scope just to be sure. No noticeable problems I can see on the crown. I have used both the thread protector, a smith flash suppressor and a brake as well.

Anybody have any ideas before I pull the barrel? Anyone got a recipe that's working for them in this rifle? If I do pull the barrel should I just put on an after market or have this one set back, rechambered and re crowned?
Click to expand...

Id try seating all of those bullets you use to an OAL of 2.825ish, throw the varget in your garden, get some RE15 and/or 2000MR/CFE223 and depending on the brass you're using anywhere from 42-43grs of RE15 with the 168s, upwards of 47grs with 2000MR/CFE, again depending on the brass yur using, of course with the heavier bullets drop your charge a bit and seat your bullets way off the lands, mine are seated 110" off. If Id shot this with Varget it'd look like it was shot with a shotgun. OAL was 2.825"
cLU4i1t.jpg
 
yeah, Im going right out and getting a "custom" barrel after shooting this group, Right! Remington makes very good barrels for factory rigs.

TSudSm6.jpg
 
I would try some remington liquid bore cleaner with the abrasive in it,just a few strokes will clean quite a bit. Be sure to clean it all out really good though.
 
I cannot argue with the experience of others with the same hardware.

However, I'd even try RL17 - but that's what I've used because I cannot find RL15.
My 308 is a shotgun with 4064, VV N133 and AA2230, but tightens right up with RL17 or VV N550
 
I should have added that yes the stock was the first thing to go. In fact I never shot it in the hogue stock at all. It has been in a B&C M40 that I currently have on another rifle, a Whiskey 3 chassis (that I sold cause honestly I didn't like it) and it is currently in a B&C A3 that has been bedded.

Maybe I will try the scrubbing with Rem Bore cleaner or some Fitz to do some "at home hand lapping" and maybe the RL15 above. If it still sucks...... well I have been looking at the Criterion Remage barrels (I have several savages and I like doing the barrels on them) maybe in a shorty 6.5x47 or something.... :)
 
I've got experience with three of those rifles and each of them will group extremely well for a factory barreled gun... after being put in a good stock. The factory stocks suck, but thankfully it sounds like you have that taken care of. 44.2 Gr varget seated at 2.820 with a 175 SMK. The guns all have done very well with that particular load... It sounds like you got a lemon for a barrel... might be new barrel time or send it back to Remington if they would be willing to look at it.
 
My 2005 Savage 10FP LE2b took a good 700 rounds to 'break in'. It was a 1.5 MOA gun for that amount and I posted here about dumping it for an FN SPR, but people told me to be patient.

Back in the fall of '07, I had a buddy start shooting and we would trudge out to the range and one day in November, I was shooting the same stuff I had been loading up for the previous two years and it just started grouping. I remember the day vividly and I was kind of shocked. Instead of the typical 1-2 MOA groups, I started getting groups that were consistently sub MOA and better.

Pretty much every weight from 150grs up to 190grs, were really shooting well and 2600 rounds later, for a total of 3300+ rounds, it's been a legitimate .75 MOA rifle.

Sometimes barrels take a long time to settle in, vs. others in the same model line, is all I can advise.

Chris
 
ChrisGarrett said:
My 2005 Savage 10FP LE2b took a good 700 rounds to 'break in'. It was a 1.5 MOA gun for that amount and I posted here about dumping it for an FN SPR, but people told me to be patient.

Back in the fall of '07, I had a buddy start shooting and we would trudge out to the range and one day in November, I was shooting the same stuff I had been loading up for the previous two years and it just started grouping. I remember the day vividly and I was kind of shocked. Instead of the typical 1-2 MOA groups, I started getting groups that were consistently sub MOA and better.

Pretty much every weight from 150grs up to 190grs, were really shooting well and 2600 rounds later, for a total of 3300+ rounds, it's been a legitimate .75 MOA rifle.

Sometimes barrels take a long time to settle in, vs. others in the same model line, is all I can advise.

Chris
Click to expand...

New here so not being a SA or anything but is this where the Tubb's could have brought you to this point 2 years and many rounds sooner?
I'm experiencing the same group size on my AAC-SD with a total of 58 rounds down the tube. Just want to know the direction to take from the experienced shooters on this forum.
BTW: PPU 145 white box is all I could find locally (a huge contributor I'm sure).
 
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Or is there any chance that the 700 rounds of practice paid off? ;)
 
Well, I went out at lunch and looked around for some Flitz polish in the little town I live in (984 people!) No go on the Flitz, guess I will have to either order some or grab some when I get out of town, but that wont be for a week or so. I was hoping to get it done tonight and go do some more testing to report tomorrow.....
 
Zombie and Gorski - what brass are you using? I have 5 pounds of RL15 and 1 pound of RL17 I could give it a try with. I have LC, Lapua, Winny and FGGM once fired to play with as well. Using Redding S bushing full length and comp seater..... I only have CCI 200 primers though....
 
Blowby said:
New here so not being a SA or anything but is this where the Tubb's could have brought you to this point 2 years and many rounds sooner?
I'm experiencing the same group size on my AAC-SD with a total of 58 rounds down the tube. Just want to know the direction to take from the experienced shooters on this forum.
BTW: PPU 145 white box is all I could find locally (a huge contributor I'm sure).
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I forgot to mention that I did use Tubbs' Final Finish on the LE2b right out of the box. I even spoke to his partner/engineer on the phone for 30 minutes, getting some tips on how to load them up and whether to use all the grits in the process. He said to forego the two finer grits and use them to touch up the throat, later on down the road, FWIW.

At the time I bought the 308, I bought a Savage 12 VLP in 22-250 and used the Tubbs' FF bullets on that rifle, as well as a slightly broken in Sendero v.1 in 7RM, so that wasn't it. Both those rifles shot very well right out of the box, so who knows?

To the guy above who mentioned practice, sure...700 rounds is about 8-10 range visits for me, so that always helps, but while I'm no Bob Lee Swagger, I'm a pretty decent shot off of a bipod, bag and bench. To those that know me here, I generally post my results with about 20-25 groups on a single reversed target, so people can see that I'm usually not a spaz behind the trigger.

All I can say is, is that it was a true epiphany, that one visit where things started dropping through the net and the rifle has been on a roll ever since, but it took a good 700 rounds to get there.

Chris
 
Beepy said:
Zombie and Gorski - what brass are you using? I have 5 pounds of RL15 and 1 pound of RL17 I could give it a try with. I have LC, Lapua, Winny and FGGM once fired to play with as well. Using Redding S bushing full length and comp seater..... I only have CCI 200 primers though....
Click to expand...
Got some Lapua and Win brass, among others of course, Load yur lapua brass up with 42grs RE15, seat your 168s to 2.820 -2.825 and watch your groups shrink, if that dont shoot, nothing will. Yeah, as far as bushings go, I use the 334 bushing for Lapua brass, 331 for Win. If you want more speed, try 47grs of these 2 powders with the same bullet, I use the 168AMAXs. CCI primers will work great. Both these groups were shot at 300yds.
BLZU4n6.jpg
 
Have you let anyone else shoot this rifle to see if they get the same accuracy?
 
I had that same gun. I ran:

Nosler brass
CCI BR2
45.0 Varget
175 SMK seated about .030 off the lands. (I cut my feed ramp and ran alpha type 2 mags so I could load them longer)

I could shoot 1/2 MOA groups with this gun all day if I did my part.
 
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Well, actually I have not had someone else shoot it (well my 9 year old daughter did... But that was for fun). I don't have a shooting buddy really.... But I did run some of those loads through my Fclass TR rifle and they were shooting clover leaf patterns...
 
Beepy said:
Well, actually I have not had someone else shoot it (well my 9 year old daughter did... But that was for fun). I don't have a shooting buddy really.... But I did run some of those loads through my Fclass TR rifle and they were shooting clover leaf patterns...
Click to expand...

Fire lap it.
 
Have you checked to make sure the stock is free floated. I have had very good luck with multiple B&C stocks, but have found that a couple out of 12 that we have do touch slightly and need to be sanded out. It doesn't take much, but it did make a big difference. BTW, these are on regular 700 SPS rifle and they all shoot better than 1 MOA. I can't complain about that rifle at all.

FWIW,

RB
 
Beepy said:
Zombie and Gorski - what brass are you using? I have 5 pounds of RL15 and 1 pound of RL17 I could give it a try with. I have LC, Lapua, Winny and FGGM once fired to play with as well. Using Redding S bushing full length and comp seater..... I only have CCI 200 primers though....
Click to expand...

I have used that load with success in Winchester, Hornady Match, & Lapua with no issues. I actually load 168s when 175s are not available with the same specs, just 44.0 gr varget instead. Works very well as well.
 
Beepy said:
Anybody have any ideas before I pull the barrel? Anyone got a recipe that's working for them in this rifle? If I do pull the barrel should I just put on an after market or have this one set back, rechambered and re crowned?
Click to expand...

41.5gr Winchester 748
168gr Hornady Match BTHP
Winchester Brass trimmed to 2.005''
CCI 200 primer
COAL is 2.83''

I shot 3 rounds with this recipe during a testing session at 100 metres approximately.

image.jpg

It's not the best powder. but with availability issues slightly similar in Canada to what the US is going through, I buy what I can get. I have the same rifle and love it. I only have a 10x 40mm Bushnell 3200 elite on it. My only bones of contention with this rifle is ergonomics and how it feels when I shoot, but 99% of that is on the user. I may get another stock down the road.....MAY.....
 
Rprecision said:
If a .308 stoked with varget and a 168-175 SMK wont shoot you need to look at other things
Click to expand...

Both my 308s shoot like a shotgun with Varget & 168s, but .5moa or less with RE15 & 2000MR/CFE. I would not base any accuracy test on Varget, my 708 does like it with 150NBTs, I mean it loves it.
 
Well gorski nailed it!,

So.... I did not have any Flitz, some of the maintenance guys I BS with at work gave me some valve lapping compound to try. I looked at it and it was WAY to course for my liking. Looking around I found some of the green polishing compound that comes in those Dremel multi kits. I took a piece of it and made a liquid paste with some WD40, used it to polish the barrel with about 10 strokes or so. Then cleaned really well.

I then loaded up and headed out. Tried the 175SMK with 43.5gr of Varget that is my standard go to load in my savages. As you can see I got the "shotgun" effect that I have been getting all along. I was a bit discouraged.

I then tried the 168SMK with 42.0 gr of RL15..... Holy Shit! 0.337 MOA! On the first group of 5 rounds. I did the last five of the 10 I loaded just to prove it wasn't a fluke and got 0.455 MOA!

I then tried some of the Hornady 178 gr HPBT I had with the RL15, now it wasn't as great as I got a 1.057 MOA, but to point out this bullet was the worst with Varget... Around 3-4 MOA....

YOU GUYS ROCK......
 

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Looks like now you get to work up a whole new load. I would do an OCW test from 41-43gr of RL-15 and see where the POI changes, pick the center of that POI change and call it a day. Especially if that kind of accuracy holds up with the 168SMK.
 
The scatter from the 175's could be the harmonics of your barrel with that particular bullet going at that particular speed not being in harmony with the world. I would try slowing them down around 2550 fps and trying it again. My calculations in Quickload show that 43.5 grains of Varget behind a 175MK with a case capacity of 54.5 grains of water will be pushing 2650 fps @ 80F.

My experience has shown that slowing the Matchkings down a bit really helps a LOT in 2 of the 3 .308's I have on the rack right now. Conversely, speeding them up beyond 2650 fps yields nothing until after 2750 FPS at which point pressure signs start to show up.

I like to run the 175 and 178's @ 2550 FPS for best results. That speed will get me beyond 1000 yards at my range, and I can shoot really nice 100 and 200 yard groups with them at that speed. The one variable in all of this is that the 178 AMAX's actually do pretty good @ 2600-2650, but not measurably better than they do @ 2550, so I backed them way down to 2550 to go easier on the brass.

Moral of the story is, every rifle/barrel has a harmonic nirvana that you need to identify. You want the bullet to leave the muzzle ahead of the sound wave that traverses through it. Once you find the muzzle velocity that gets you there, the groups tighten up very nicely. At least that's how it works for me so far. Might want to try and slow those 175's down a bit and see what it gets you.
 
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I can only tell you what my AAC-SD likes. 175SMK/Remington brass(FL sized,trimmed)/WLR primers/48.7gr RL-17/2.86" OAL/2608fps avg (.6 MOA if I hold my own)
Tried some 178AMAX and 175SMK with Varget and didn't really like the results.
 
Funny, my AAC-SD didn't like Varget either. This is the first 308 I've ever owned that Varget didn't produce any respectable and repeatable groups with 168's and 175's. I ended up going to IMR 8208 XBR and it worked like a champ.

Coincidence?
 
My AAC-SD loves Varget and the 175 class bullets. It didn't seem to like Varget much with the 208 grain AMAXs, but I prefer being able to use the magazine anyway.
 
Id try 41.3grs RE15 with that 175, but then Ive had good results with 2000MR and 178HPBTs, 2000MR will give you more speed and it's cleaner burning than RE15.
 
I guess I lucked out. My aac-sd shot 1 1/2" with factory ammo. I intend to get a B&C M-40 stock too when I can find one but until then I thought I'd try adding a washer to the front lug bolt to free float the barrel more. I made one from the bottom of a soda (actually beer) can and torqued everything. I then reloaded using 168 smk on varget and 42.5 gns. tuned out being what it likes. I figured the Houge stock was to soft for a bipod so I just use a front sand bag just ahead of the mag well and a rear bag. I don't know what made the difference but the thing shoots under 1/2". Almost scared to change out the stock now.
 
I have an aac-sd build that's either VERY picky about its loads, I cant shoot for shit, or its just a pos rifle. Im going to trade out the crappy xmark for a timney and see if that helps. If nothing improves from there its getting a new barrel. Im done wasting components on this thing.
 
Truth223 said:
Im going to trade out the crappy xmark for a timney and see if that helps.
Click to expand...


That would have been the first change I made. All my Remington's that came with that dufus trigger assembly got new Timney's as soon as I took them home.

Now I'm just waiting for someone that loves the X-Mark Pro to come along and give me some money for my collection of new ones that were removed.
 
I didnt even shoot my SPSS til I installed the Jewell. Definitely get a better trigger, can make a world of difference.
 
I have never met a .308 that I couldn't get to shoot well. Using powders like 748 (which people tend to turn their head at here for some reason) and IMR-4895.

If FGGM doesn't shoot well in the thing is either the rifle or you. If your loads don't shoot well its either you or you need to try some proven powders like Varget or RL
 
UrbanSi said:
I have never met a .308 that I couldn't get to shoot well. Using powders like 748 (which people tend to turn their head at here for some reason) and IMR-4895.

If FGGM doesn't shoot well in the thing is either the rifle or you. If your loads don't shoot well its either you or you need to try some proven powders like Varget or RL
Click to expand...

Varget has yet to prove to me that it's the go to powder for the 308, in fact, it absolutely sucks in my 308s. RE15 ROCKS!
 
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