This past weekend I shot my first 1000 YD match with my 18” Gap 10 and I was very impressed with the rifle and how the loads performed. Ended up with a 168 6X out of a possible 200 20x. My issue throught the match was gauging the wind. All of my shots were on a horizontal plane, leading me to believe the wind played a huge factor. I was varying holds between 2.5 MIN and .5 to get consistent shots. But I wonder if my holds were off and therefore caused the rounds horizontal deviation? I was just using what I thought would be right at the time. Can someone please explain to me if there is a simpler, more scientific way to quickly estimate hold? Thanks in advance.
- Thread starter sic65stang
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At this point there is no point in evaluating your work. Next match, call your shots. Shots off call indicate wind error. Also, assuming you have sighters, needing to accurately adjust for wind velocity after you are getting hits right in there may not be necessary. Some shooters, including myself, will be successful just shooting during prevailing conditions and holding fire when the wind lets off, picks up, or switches, rather than guessing at what the wind change is worth. Rebuilding position while target is down and plotting shots one behind, will usually allow for the aforementioned strategy in 22 to 30 minute timed fire events. Also, shooting ammunition with a very low SD and ES will help you hold pinwheel X elevation which effectively makes the target bigger, allowing for some wind error without a consequence. BTW, it sounds like you did indeed hold elevation. As far as your horizontal grouping goes, it could, of course, be wind, yet, it also indicates good elevation but poor trigger control.
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there are two main wind indicators at f-class matches:
1. those giant red/orange flags lining the left and right sides of the range. watch what they look like before and after your sighters, then look at the results on paper. when the flags look like that again, shoot.
2. the guys on the left and right of you, aka 'wind dogs'. if you scan up and down the line and see everybody out at 3 or 9 oclock... you just hang out and rethink the wind.
1. those giant red/orange flags lining the left and right sides of the range. watch what they look like before and after your sighters, then look at the results on paper. when the flags look like that again, shoot.
2. the guys on the left and right of you, aka 'wind dogs'. if you scan up and down the line and see everybody out at 3 or 9 oclock... you just hang out and rethink the wind.
Doesn't sound like you have a plan...
You have no way of knowing what the other guys are doing... how good they are, what they held, etc. So it's better to have an idea of what you need and how the wind effects you rather than try to judge the other guy. Your 18" 308 is probably seeing much more effect then the other guys on the line unless you have a squad of 308 AR10 shooters with you. So why would you care what their spotter looks like.
You also missed a big indicator, a Kestrel that you actually use and observe...
Monitor the Kestrel before your relay starts, and note the position of the flags as the kestrel gives you a "real number' then you can assign that actual value to your hold.
I would suggest more but then I would be cutting into my paid lessons, as there is a few steps further you can go in order to dope the wind.
But mainly it comes down to prior proper planning and then having a plan.
You have no way of knowing what the other guys are doing... how good they are, what they held, etc. So it's better to have an idea of what you need and how the wind effects you rather than try to judge the other guy. Your 18" 308 is probably seeing much more effect then the other guys on the line unless you have a squad of 308 AR10 shooters with you. So why would you care what their spotter looks like.
You also missed a big indicator, a Kestrel that you actually use and observe...
Monitor the Kestrel before your relay starts, and note the position of the flags as the kestrel gives you a "real number' then you can assign that actual value to your hold.
I would suggest more but then I would be cutting into my paid lessons, as there is a few steps further you can go in order to dope the wind.
But mainly it comes down to prior proper planning and then having a plan.
i really am not interested in debating it, but i do know many of the shooters, and if you don't know how good they are by the time you're done with your sighters, you're just not paying attention. i don't know exactly what they held, but i've shot and scored and coached enough matches to recognize the rhythm of guys hammering the x/10 for several rounds and then everybody's out to one side. unlike sniper/field matches, f-class shooters are all shooting in the same wind, so it's not clear why you'd want to ignore a better source of data.
as far as kestrels are concerned, it is a great tool on some ranges, but not very useful on others, much like mirage.
as far as kestrels are concerned, it is a great tool on some ranges, but not very useful on others, much like mirage.
Then continue to march and good luck with your wind calls...
not sure if this will help you out or not, but I found it to be interesting.... worth a watch, it might help:
Wind Estimation and Compensation - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube
Wind Estimation and Compensation - Rifle Shooting Technique - NSSF Shooting Sportscast - YouTube
Nick, That is exactly what I should have done! As stupid as it sounds I didnt even think about that. I think it is definitely going to take time to learn this skill and I will just have to learn wind estimations first in order to do calculations. Now I will be always quizzing myself. LOL
Dope is your friend...
With out watching you shoot, I'll make no comment. Can't coach on the internet.
Now as to judging wind:
It takes practice, lots and lots of practice. Leave your rifle home, get your spotting scope and wind meter. Go to the range when its closed if possible, or go somewhere else where you can observe the wind/mirage.
I like mirage myself.
Take your spotting scope and look at the mirage. Focus the scope 1/2 to 2/3s distance to the target (or where the target would be if there is one). Look at the mirage through the scope, then compare it to what your wind meter says.
Keep at it. Get to where you can see the mirage, then make your best guess and compare your guess to the wind meter.
Not perfect but it works.
Another, better method, though hard to do, is score for a good team during a team match.
When I was coaching the AK NG Rifle team, I'd do the scoring duty if we were scoring for top teams. As a scorer you have to get right next to the other teams coach to compare scores, but you are also hearing his call to the shooters. Compare your estimates to the coaches call and see what the shooter does.
Best too sessions that come to mind is scoring for the NY NG when they won the Wilson Matches (national guard championships), another was scoring for the AMU at 29 Palms (1000 yard match). They shot a 799/800. I refined my wind/mirage calls during those matches.
As to corrections, you either click or favor, I like to clicks but most of my long range shooting has been with iron sights. Even with a scope I'd rather click time permitting. Some times you just have to favor, such as in an Infantry Trophy Match.
Now as to judging wind:
It takes practice, lots and lots of practice. Leave your rifle home, get your spotting scope and wind meter. Go to the range when its closed if possible, or go somewhere else where you can observe the wind/mirage.
I like mirage myself.
Take your spotting scope and look at the mirage. Focus the scope 1/2 to 2/3s distance to the target (or where the target would be if there is one). Look at the mirage through the scope, then compare it to what your wind meter says.
Keep at it. Get to where you can see the mirage, then make your best guess and compare your guess to the wind meter.
Not perfect but it works.
Another, better method, though hard to do, is score for a good team during a team match.
When I was coaching the AK NG Rifle team, I'd do the scoring duty if we were scoring for top teams. As a scorer you have to get right next to the other teams coach to compare scores, but you are also hearing his call to the shooters. Compare your estimates to the coaches call and see what the shooter does.
Best too sessions that come to mind is scoring for the NY NG when they won the Wilson Matches (national guard championships), another was scoring for the AMU at 29 Palms (1000 yard match). They shot a 799/800. I refined my wind/mirage calls during those matches.
As to corrections, you either click or favor, I like to clicks but most of my long range shooting has been with iron sights. Even with a scope I'd rather click time permitting. Some times you just have to favor, such as in an Infantry Trophy Match.
This is why I think it is comical people don't think the Kestrel works, for EVERYTHING.
How else do you calibrate your vision to an actual value ? You compare the readings on the kestrel to what you see around you, be it flags or other indicators. Then you have an actual VALUE to use...
A 1 MPH wind will move a 175gr SMK 10" at 1000 yards... there is no way to look at something 1000 yards away without calibrating your vision to a reading. Back in the day it was done with years and years of practice... people called it experience. Today we can use the wind meter to cut that experience in half.
Once you have a value, you can then use it to formulate a dope for that value. When you see the flag or mirage increase you can then tell yourself, "self", that is a 10MPH gust which means I need to hold, "X" or you can say, "self" that is an 8 MPH wind so I need "Y" ... instead of using bullshit generalities like 8 to 10, you know when it is 8 and when it is not.
Never in my life have I heard of a winning shooter "watching the other guys" if you are paying attention to them, you are not focused on you. Unless it is a team where everyone is in sync, even then, they usually have a coach who calls it, not each other looking down the line. I have shot F Class, I fail to see how you can expect to succeed watching another shooter when you are shooting. Sure observe the other relays when you are off the line... I would be glued to a scope if I felt the wind was acting unpredictable. However experience has taught me it is not nearly as unpredictable as you think. We just don't have a plan in place so it is nothing more than noodling.
40MPH winds on the first day of the SH Cup and still a handful of shooters shot better than 50% of the targets for the day. I bet they had a plan and knew what 40MPH meant in terms of their dope. Wind, drizzle, and terrain which moved that wind in wicked ways... and there was nothing but you on the line to observe when it came time to press the trigger. So clearly the better shooters were working the problem on their own.
Wind first Day
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151686630517953" width="568" height="320" frameborder="0"></iframe>
Finally, recording your data is key. Even with all the electronics I use, even image of still has my databook on the line. I record everything... here is the teaser for the most recent wind lesson, consider this teaser is 1/4 of the actual lesson.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/z6zGwyiMxso" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
How else do you calibrate your vision to an actual value ? You compare the readings on the kestrel to what you see around you, be it flags or other indicators. Then you have an actual VALUE to use...
A 1 MPH wind will move a 175gr SMK 10" at 1000 yards... there is no way to look at something 1000 yards away without calibrating your vision to a reading. Back in the day it was done with years and years of practice... people called it experience. Today we can use the wind meter to cut that experience in half.
Once you have a value, you can then use it to formulate a dope for that value. When you see the flag or mirage increase you can then tell yourself, "self", that is a 10MPH gust which means I need to hold, "X" or you can say, "self" that is an 8 MPH wind so I need "Y" ... instead of using bullshit generalities like 8 to 10, you know when it is 8 and when it is not.
Never in my life have I heard of a winning shooter "watching the other guys" if you are paying attention to them, you are not focused on you. Unless it is a team where everyone is in sync, even then, they usually have a coach who calls it, not each other looking down the line. I have shot F Class, I fail to see how you can expect to succeed watching another shooter when you are shooting. Sure observe the other relays when you are off the line... I would be glued to a scope if I felt the wind was acting unpredictable. However experience has taught me it is not nearly as unpredictable as you think. We just don't have a plan in place so it is nothing more than noodling.
40MPH winds on the first day of the SH Cup and still a handful of shooters shot better than 50% of the targets for the day. I bet they had a plan and knew what 40MPH meant in terms of their dope. Wind, drizzle, and terrain which moved that wind in wicked ways... and there was nothing but you on the line to observe when it came time to press the trigger. So clearly the better shooters were working the problem on their own.
Wind first Day
<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151686630517953" width="568" height="320" frameborder="0"></iframe>
Finally, recording your data is key. Even with all the electronics I use, even image of still has my databook on the line. I record everything... here is the teaser for the most recent wind lesson, consider this teaser is 1/4 of the actual lesson.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/z6zGwyiMxso" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
LL,
Interestingly, winning shooters do watch other shooters, at least in NRA LR. They will use a shooter, which they recognize as a novice, observing where the novice shooter hits, if conditions preclude the winning shooter from a good understanding for a wind change which requires a commitment to a major adjustment. It's a strategy which is very effective if time permits the winning shooter to observe the novice shooters correction. I think Mitch Maxberry, on at least a few occasions, used me as his dummy at the time I was just getting into LR. The basis of the strategy is recognition that the novice will shoot without thinking about a sight adjustment until a bullet hits somewhere way off call. Also, I do not recall any match where I did not take a second look upon hearing "oh shit", or seeing a line of targets with everybody's shots out to one side or the other.
Interestingly, winning shooters do watch other shooters, at least in NRA LR. They will use a shooter, which they recognize as a novice, observing where the novice shooter hits, if conditions preclude the winning shooter from a good understanding for a wind change which requires a commitment to a major adjustment. It's a strategy which is very effective if time permits the winning shooter to observe the novice shooters correction. I think Mitch Maxberry, on at least a few occasions, used me as his dummy at the time I was just getting into LR. The basis of the strategy is recognition that the novice will shoot without thinking about a sight adjustment until a bullet hits somewhere way off call. Also, I do not recall any match where I did not take a second look upon hearing "oh shit", or seeing a line of targets with everybody's shots out to one side or the other.
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"Wind dummies" are your friend. Nothing better than a hard-holding junior, who knows nothing about wind reading and only knows how to shoot straight down the middle. Until he catches on, and starts making corrections, you can adjust from his wide shots no problem.
I'd rather observe the relay before, but then again 20 minutes is a ton of time. You'd think you're own sightseers would be dumb enough, but then it might be why I don't shoot service rifle.
It sort of reminds me of shooting movers. When a guy who just hit 9 out of 10 comes off the line and everyone rushes him for his hold. He tells them then it never works for the majority of the other guys. Why, they are not him, shooter lock time, system used, etc. if you know what your mover hold is, knowing what the other guy is using is meaningless. Not everyone releases the shot at the same point, so the hold used wont work.
I think during the relay watching the other guy is carried over bad practice from the past. It shows you really don't know how to manage the wind, it takes you off focus and task. The novice may not hold anything, who cares, if you doped it ahead of time it shouldn't matter you have sightseers, and you have a series of values, if you employed them you'd learn much more and be successful faster. Dependence on a wind dummie doesn't teach you anything but dial your dope. What happens when it is just you.
Bad practice period. If you want to observe, set up a spotter and watch the guys when you are not shooting.
It sort of reminds me of shooting movers. When a guy who just hit 9 out of 10 comes off the line and everyone rushes him for his hold. He tells them then it never works for the majority of the other guys. Why, they are not him, shooter lock time, system used, etc. if you know what your mover hold is, knowing what the other guy is using is meaningless. Not everyone releases the shot at the same point, so the hold used wont work.
I think during the relay watching the other guy is carried over bad practice from the past. It shows you really don't know how to manage the wind, it takes you off focus and task. The novice may not hold anything, who cares, if you doped it ahead of time it shouldn't matter you have sightseers, and you have a series of values, if you employed them you'd learn much more and be successful faster. Dependence on a wind dummie doesn't teach you anything but dial your dope. What happens when it is just you.
Bad practice period. If you want to observe, set up a spotter and watch the guys when you are not shooting.
I wish i had a 1000yard range in my area. Sounds like soooo much fun. 600yards is tops around my area unless you are good friends with a farmer.
There are certainly folks who watch other shooters from the perspective of their own firing points without any clue as how to benefit from their observation. Those shooters have a hard time getting good hits on the LR target even starting out with a good no wind zero and a proper wind favor given to them. These "shooters" may be knowledgeable of what's important, but, not having developed an understanding for how to be consistent, still can't to do it. These folks are a long way from being able to make any sense out of any strategies a HM might use to win. In fact, nost new LR shooters are defeated before they ever get to the firing line. They think the target is small and hard to see. This mindset and any shooter jesting "are you serious, you can't see that target, it's huge" is enough to make the novice shooter think that he cannot do it since he can't see as well as others. A seasoned shooter knows he can win without ever seeing his target, simply by aiming at something out there he can see and off setting the sight to hit the target no matter how it appears. At any rate, a novice LR shooter I think would do well if relegated to just to following a procedure for properly executing the two firing tasks before taking on more obligations., which will likely just overwhelm the shooter. BTW, most new LR shooters who want to prove they can shoot are the worst at digesting how-to-do-it information. Their heads are so full of crap when they get to the firing line that with any cause for panic their overload will thwart putting anything together.
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well... nobody said we don't take the conditions we see and turn it into a mph value. of course I do that. the kestrel is a great tool and i use it all the time. but it's only one source of data (wind at the shooter), and some of us shoot in places where the wind isn't blowing steady in the same direction. in this part of the country, in the summers it gusts and lets off and swirls around and changes direction pretty fast. when you're laying prone, glancing at the kestrel is hard to do because the kestrel needs to be up off the ground to get a reliable reading.
wind flags, mirage and the kestrel are all good sources of data for you to base your estimate of the aggregate wind effect (which around here may be blowing left to right at the shooter and right to left at midrange).
the wind dogs are just a sanity check to tell you when you may have missed a change in the conditions.
honestly, i don't understand the aversion to watching other shooters "while you're shooting". to put this into perspective, most PRS match stages are 5 shots in 30-60 seconds. In NRA, you get a whole minute per shot and you never have to transition between targets targets, change positions, run, range or anything at all except your adjust your windage. A minute per shot is a friggin lifetime. You have all day to watch other shooters. You can friggin take a nap on the line and still get your rounds off. You can stand up, come out of your sling and shooting jacket, get a drink or something and relax for 3 or 4 minutes and still finish with plenty of time. It's just not a problem.
even shooting one at a time in practical matches, shooters share their wind calls. then when it's my turn, i'm watching the wind to see if it looks like the same condition i saw when the other guy was shooting. it's just validation. usually, in the staging area, a few of us will make our guesses individually then talk about the. after one of us shoots, the feedback is just "it's more or less than what we thought". Now given that we're all standing there holding our kestrels up, and we still miss shots left or right sometimes, any intellectually honest person would recognize the kestrel isn't some magic talisman that tells you what your perfect wind hold should be for EVERYTHING.
why are you saying we don't have a plan? I plan. it's just that my plan includes more sources of data than yours.
No where do I say I limit my inputs... and I find I have far less issue with wind than you are describing ...
You're part of the country has wind.... please, pathetic, come out here, we have mountains, canyons, etc, wind is... and blows, see my video. Give me an example even close to that where "you" are ...
I have posted more examples of wind, to include smoke that changes direction on a dime. If you are watching a guy, after he says "oh shit" you have to try and remember what that wind was when he actually pressed the trigger. You have to wait for the spotter to come up to see and then harken back to that shot, in order to "figure out " what his "oh shit" call was... could b be a solid minute or better and here wind changes 60 times in a minute.
Clearly, you [MENTION=42815]taliv[/MENTION] don't need any advice you have it all figure out so drive on have fun. I use a combination of tools. Kestral, PDA, Flags, etc... and I hate to break it too you, "all wind begins at the shooter" and it is never constant or consistent. Still without wind at the shooter you cannot determine anything downrange. All it is doing is blowing 1000 yards away, there is no physical way to read it to within 1MPH 1000 yards away. Not without establish a number at the SHOOTER First. Wind at the shooter has the longest effect, the greatest value and can be read to within 1 MPH or better... no where else is that true.
I know the wind, I shoot in the wind every single week, today I shot in the wind off day, all unsupported, and guess what no wind dummy for me. I get new shooters on target every month at the classes here in high winds, and get them consistently hitting 2 MOA or better targets out to 1200 yards. I show them the conditions to watch, I give them an actual value for the wind and I show them how to concentrate on the hold in order to hit. Terrain, is a huge factor here... come shoot the Cup Next year and experience it for yourself.
You just keep on believing that all wind begins at the shooter. But be advised, there are some folks, like the USAMU Shooting Team, that believe the wind at mid range serves as a better indicator of the average wind from shooter to target. Oh, one more thing, wind at the shooter does not determine anything downrange. If your wind at the shooter rhetoric worked, everybody that had a Kestral and an understanding of basic marksmanship would have an HM LR rating, but that clearly is not the case. You also may want to re-visit my earlier posts here which use the word dummy in context to competition, not practice. You mention that you don't need a dummy to have an understanding, implying that you are self reliant as if others here are not. Really.
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Without an understanding of the wind at the shooter you cannot get an Average at the Mid Range... it all has to start somewhere.
As you progress and gain experience the better your downrange estimates will be... but it all begins at the shooter.
That IS the foundation... USAMU are not novice shooters, so they can leap frog to mid range, and that is what they consider a good "average", you still need information to get that Average.
Wind at the shooter is the foundation, that doesn't mean you don't use mid range or wind at the target... it means the foundation is the wind at the shooter. To manage the changes you use both mid range and at the target. Wind at the target is where your final focus is... so you can use that to manage changes. But you still need a value to calibrate your call.
Mid range does not always work and you not understanding what I am saying doesn't change the fact we have show you example after example of where mid range wind is useless.
Every shooter has to start some where, that is wind at the shooter... period. There is no way to take a new shooter or someone in a box and say, "what is the wind speed at 600 yards" without giving them something beside a visual of a blade of grass blowing. You need 3 senses to estimate it, Sight, Sound and Feel... you see how it effects things downrange, you listen for the changes in velocity and you feel those changes on your body. Without them you are not estimating shit.
Not everyone shoots on a square range like the USAMU, where wind is much more consistent, were there are flags every 100 yards, and where you have coaches, and wind dummies... it's easy to tell private smith to shoot first and let Sgt Jones gauge the wind off Smith's shot... but that doesn't help the guy who doesn't have a Smith on the line for them.
I want to teach people to learn smarter and work the problem in a smart methodical way. Not basing it off a dummy on the line. If you wanted that just shoot your first round without anything on it. That is why you have a sighter.
As you progress and gain experience the better your downrange estimates will be... but it all begins at the shooter.
That IS the foundation... USAMU are not novice shooters, so they can leap frog to mid range, and that is what they consider a good "average", you still need information to get that Average.
Wind at the shooter is the foundation, that doesn't mean you don't use mid range or wind at the target... it means the foundation is the wind at the shooter. To manage the changes you use both mid range and at the target. Wind at the target is where your final focus is... so you can use that to manage changes. But you still need a value to calibrate your call.
Mid range does not always work and you not understanding what I am saying doesn't change the fact we have show you example after example of where mid range wind is useless.
Every shooter has to start some where, that is wind at the shooter... period. There is no way to take a new shooter or someone in a box and say, "what is the wind speed at 600 yards" without giving them something beside a visual of a blade of grass blowing. You need 3 senses to estimate it, Sight, Sound and Feel... you see how it effects things downrange, you listen for the changes in velocity and you feel those changes on your body. Without them you are not estimating shit.
Not everyone shoots on a square range like the USAMU, where wind is much more consistent, were there are flags every 100 yards, and where you have coaches, and wind dummies... it's easy to tell private smith to shoot first and let Sgt Jones gauge the wind off Smith's shot... but that doesn't help the guy who doesn't have a Smith on the line for them.
I want to teach people to learn smarter and work the problem in a smart methodical way. Not basing it off a dummy on the line. If you wanted that just shoot your first round without anything on it. That is why you have a sighter.
Lowlight said:
uhh, right here?
you have far less issue with the wind? maybe that's because the x-ring on the f-class center is a half MOA, and you're happy with 2 MOA targets, per the above post. I guess you don't need to be nearly as precise.
Lowlight said:
dude, i don't know where the attitude is coming from. all i did was suggest ONE more source of wind data and you're jumping my shit like I told people to throw away their kestrals and consult their horoscope or something. I'm always happy to take advice from good shooters. but saying things like "without wind at the shooter you cannot determine anything downrange" is just wildly inaccurate. lots of times around here the wind at the shooter will be calm but we'll see strong mirage or trees blowing indicating wind down range. you can still read it downrange. sure the wind at the shooter is more important, but it doesn't determine the wind down range. it's like you're claiming once you know the wind at the shooter to 1 mph, you can determine the wind 1000 yards away to 1 mph, which is obviously ridiculous.
i did actually sign up and pay for the cup this year, but unfortunately due to work i had to cancel my trip at the last minute. maybe we can continue the discussion over a drink at the Heatstroke? or the Grind? or the Finale?
I never limited my inputs, I said I would watch relays before and not during MY string of fire... as I noted above, consider the act of watching another shooter during your relay.
Shooter fires, target goes down, spotter inserted, target comes up... that is close to a minute you have to waste watching what he is doing. If you are not watching the wind indicators when he fires, you cannot determine what the wind was doing from his spotter alone. That takes time and takes you off the firing task. It puts another layer into your shooting. The spotter on his target is a history of his shooting... you have no clue what he held, if he jerked the trigger, any number of variables can be put into HIS shot you are not aware of... you have your own sighters for a reason. As noted, guys are picking on novice shooters, novice shooter screw up more than the wind.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying, as I noted, you watch all areas, and wind does move, which is why you need a foundation, I never once said I ignored downrange indicators, or anything like that. I said the Kestrel "CALIBRATES" you down range calls... that does not imply anything like you wrote. You;re failure to understand my words is not my failure to estimate wind at the target.
Also how you are doing all this at Night ? You have very little resolution to tell what is going on 600+ yards away. Kestrels are NV capable for a reason... it's a tool, being able to use the tool correctly is key.
Hate to break it too you, I have shot F Class and I have more shot precise, I said 2 MOA or less... I also designed a target based off the Nor Cal one for using a Tactical Rifle on a High Power range that has an X Ring smaller than a 1/2 MOA. But i have shot several Spirit of America F Class matches in Raton, as well as matches here, and matches across the country.
It's 50/50 that I will shoot the Grind, if so, I doubt I will be wasting my time with you. I am not a PRS member and have no interest in becoming one. Good luck on your endeavors...
Shooter fires, target goes down, spotter inserted, target comes up... that is close to a minute you have to waste watching what he is doing. If you are not watching the wind indicators when he fires, you cannot determine what the wind was doing from his spotter alone. That takes time and takes you off the firing task. It puts another layer into your shooting. The spotter on his target is a history of his shooting... you have no clue what he held, if he jerked the trigger, any number of variables can be put into HIS shot you are not aware of... you have your own sighters for a reason. As noted, guys are picking on novice shooters, novice shooter screw up more than the wind.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying, as I noted, you watch all areas, and wind does move, which is why you need a foundation, I never once said I ignored downrange indicators, or anything like that. I said the Kestrel "CALIBRATES" you down range calls... that does not imply anything like you wrote. You;re failure to understand my words is not my failure to estimate wind at the target.
Also how you are doing all this at Night ? You have very little resolution to tell what is going on 600+ yards away. Kestrels are NV capable for a reason... it's a tool, being able to use the tool correctly is key.
Hate to break it too you, I have shot F Class and I have more shot precise, I said 2 MOA or less... I also designed a target based off the Nor Cal one for using a Tactical Rifle on a High Power range that has an X Ring smaller than a 1/2 MOA. But i have shot several Spirit of America F Class matches in Raton, as well as matches here, and matches across the country.
It's 50/50 that I will shoot the Grind, if so, I doubt I will be wasting my time with you. I am not a PRS member and have no interest in becoming one. Good luck on your endeavors...
LL,
You said, "Without an understanding of the wind at the shooter you can not get an Average at the Mid Range". That is not true. Also, wind at the shooter is not an indicator for wind any where but at the shooter. And, if indeed you are beginning with this wind, that implies an averaging of it with some wind somewhere else. How do you do that? What math do you use? After all, as you alluded, you might not know the wind any where else. But then would not taking the wind at the shooter just be a guess? Your so called foundation is an assumption, which you have committed to without due diligence. Your premise is sprinkled with a few facts regarding the effect of not getting the wind right and the need to get the wind right for good results, making it appear you are knowledgeable. Thing is, your beginning point foundation is not relevant to wind reading as wind is not relative to a beginning point. Your assumption is not the WORD. BTW, how is your premise of wind at the shooter working out for you in F Class?
You said, "Without an understanding of the wind at the shooter you can not get an Average at the Mid Range". That is not true. Also, wind at the shooter is not an indicator for wind any where but at the shooter. And, if indeed you are beginning with this wind, that implies an averaging of it with some wind somewhere else. How do you do that? What math do you use? After all, as you alluded, you might not know the wind any where else. But then would not taking the wind at the shooter just be a guess? Your so called foundation is an assumption, which you have committed to without due diligence. Your premise is sprinkled with a few facts regarding the effect of not getting the wind right and the need to get the wind right for good results, making it appear you are knowledgeable. Thing is, your beginning point foundation is not relevant to wind reading as wind is not relative to a beginning point. Your assumption is not the WORD. BTW, how is your premise of wind at the shooter working out for you in F Class?
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There is another method I haven't seen addressed. That is Rounds Down Range.
Before I started playing with an AR and Vintage rifles just about all my long range shooting was with the M14/M1A. Shooting and coaching for the Guard was mostly all M14's and 308. I had unlimited ammo and decades of shooting the M14.
After a while you could look in a spotting scope and just click into the wind sub-consciously, with out thinking. Of course that was KD ranges. I had other shooters asked me what I added, and I couldn't tell them, I'd have to look again and figure it out to find out what I've done.
I doubt I could do that now, don't shoot the M1A like I use to.
But a lot can be said for just plain old practice and rounds down range.
Before I started playing with an AR and Vintage rifles just about all my long range shooting was with the M14/M1A. Shooting and coaching for the Guard was mostly all M14's and 308. I had unlimited ammo and decades of shooting the M14.
After a while you could look in a spotting scope and just click into the wind sub-consciously, with out thinking. Of course that was KD ranges. I had other shooters asked me what I added, and I couldn't tell them, I'd have to look again and figure it out to find out what I've done.
I doubt I could do that now, don't shoot the M1A like I use to.
But a lot can be said for just plain old practice and rounds down range.
Don't forget the 1/2 MOA Capable 18" GAP 10 - 308 ... I mean they are good but 1/2 MOA Precision at 1k... that is some pretty impressive stuff happening there.
Then again, I am only a 2MOA shooter what would I know... I can't remember the last time I was near a high power range.
Then again, I am only a 2MOA shooter what would I know... I can't remember the last time I was near a high power range.
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