People i have been reading threads all day of user misinforming you guys on the proper way to make an sbr. You do not and i repeat you do not have to engrave your lower with any new identifying marks or serial numbers or the ridiculous long name of your trust to be legal. The only time you have to engrave your lower is 1 if you plan on selling it or 2 you actually made the lower yourself as in you own a cnc machine and made it from a blank piece of metal. The original manufacturers name and serial number is more than suffice for the atf. When you fill out your form 1 just use the serial number on your lower. If you do a form 4 theres no reason at all you should even be asking this question. The only difference in a form 1 and form 4 is the form 4 has already been done all you are doing is taking ownership. The form 1 is still considered a long gun so you will be making it into a sbr so thats why you will need the form 1 then after that the new owners takes it on a form 4 but ahhhh ha you have to engrave it before you sell it. I hope this helps anyone wanting to get into the wonderful life of sbr's its not as hard as people make it out to be. And yes i have the letter from the atf stating all this and with 13 new pending stamps just this year alone i think i know what im talking about. Remember the 4 rules of shooting and happy shooting my friends
- Thread starter allidoiswin
- Start date
I've never even heard of this misnomer before.
Can you post a PDF or some version of this letter? I intend on constructing an SBR in the future and I'd like to see what they've told you.
I'll just say there's letters and info going both ways. Now I know with 11 posts and demanding a sticky because you're the all knowing we should all just stop what we're doing and listen to you..... but I don't see that happening.
Spend some time in NFA and you'll find the ATF constantly goes back and forth on itself- and YOU will also learn an ATF letter is only good for the person it's adressed to.
Spend some time in NFA and you'll find the ATF constantly goes back and forth on itself- and YOU will also learn an ATF letter is only good for the person it's adressed to.
Yes, I called and was told by ATF over the phone that I would become the "manufacturer" of said SBR and that engraving the receiver is REQUIRED. I don't doubt the OP has a letter but it would seem that there is no consistency with the BATF
Ooooh I dunno you only have 10 posts and didn't demand a sticky so I think OP may win.....
sorry feeling snarky this morning but stuff like this irks me, especially when dealing with a proposed 10yr engagement to Bubba
sorry feeling snarky this morning but stuff like this irks me, especially when dealing with a proposed 10yr engagement to Bubba
So we're now associating post counts with quality information? While I do agree he is a "noob" to this forum, that doesn't mean his information isn't quality...
That being said, I too have info going both ways...Consistency would be a good thing at this point...Especially on a gun that I have to register w/my state in T-minus 4 months...
I was agreeing with the both of you. and I lost all my posts in the great 2A forum scandal of 2013.
haha not at all, as I said was feeling snarky.
But when you join a forum, have 11 posts and somehow come to the conclusion you have found the answer to life's long lost questions and everyone else is wrong.... well it usually doesn't go well. Seen a million of them. If he was as wise as he claims he would know what the posts now on this one thread are saying.
But when you join a forum, have 11 posts and somehow come to the conclusion you have found the answer to life's long lost questions and everyone else is wrong.... well it usually doesn't go well. Seen a million of them. If he was as wise as he claims he would know what the posts now on this one thread are saying.
It's all good! Just having some fun on this beautiful OR morning.
I was agreeing with the both of you. and I lost all my posts in the great 2A forum scandal of 2013.
I agree with the OP and I think he makes sense.
I know most people on here will not agree with the OP, that's because in General, Gun Forum Members think higher the "Post Count" means more reputable the info.
I know most people on here will not agree with the OP, that's because in General, Gun Forum Members think higher the "Post Count" means more reputable the info.
You and the OP being wrong doesn't have shit to do with your post count. It depends on the fact that you are both wrong.
as was stated so succinctly in the Suppressors forum thread on SBR engraving by TexasGunTrustLawyer:
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If you think TexasGunTrustLawyer is God and the final law lays with them, then you are correct.
never said anything about him being "God" or anything to that effect. He stated it the most succinctly so i gave him credit for it. The ATF regulations are the ones that are what governs. Not some letter that someone has or posts on the internet.
here:
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And a more current thread, talking about SBS's, but still the same guidelines.
SilencerTalk ? View topic - SBS Engraved????
For the Record, I have my SBR engraved. However, as others have said, they have seen letters that went both ways.
Even though I have my SBR engraved, I am not hard set on "engraving is needed", however I will always engrave to play it safe. Only way I would NOT engrave is if I have my own letter from the ATF addressed to me saying engraving is not necessary.
I got in a discussion with some guy awhile back about this and he told me the Whole "Maker" thing is for people who are making their own Silencers or Machine Guns. Since they are not manufacturer's they are makers. He said the ATF does not require an engraving for SBR because they do not considering chopping a barrel as a manufacturer or even maker. He also brought up the point that when you Form-4 a Silencer you do NOT have to engrave again.
As of right now, I am leaning more towards the OP. However, I will always engrave until I have my own letter from the ATF saying I do not need to engrave.
Even though I have my SBR engraved, I am not hard set on "engraving is needed", however I will always engrave to play it safe. Only way I would NOT engrave is if I have my own letter from the ATF addressed to me saying engraving is not necessary.
I got in a discussion with some guy awhile back about this and he told me the Whole "Maker" thing is for people who are making their own Silencers or Machine Guns. Since they are not manufacturer's they are makers. He said the ATF does not require an engraving for SBR because they do not considering chopping a barrel as a manufacturer or even maker. He also brought up the point that when you Form-4 a Silencer you do NOT have to engrave again.
As of right now, I am leaning more towards the OP. However, I will always engrave until I have my own letter from the ATF saying I do not need to engrave.
Demanding that your opinion be made a sticky (regardless of whether you are "new here" or not)...more power to ya!! Be sure to let Frank know your opinion on how you think he should operate the Hide in other fashions as well...that usually gets you tons of thanks and praise for your input based on the enormity of your awe-inspiring contributions to the greater good around here.
All joking aside...ANYONE who comes onto a open Internet forum seeking legal advice about compliance with federal law/regs (or any law for that matter) is getting EXACTLY what they pay for in terms of quality/sound legal advice!!
"Somebody on the Internet told me so..." (regardless of who they are or make themselves out to be) is NOT a valid defense to a federal felony and life is NOT a State Farm commercial wherein you can't put it on the Internet if it isn't true. In fact...having seen that one get thrown out there (not by me nor one of my clients) in court...it does NOT go over well at all.
I will say, that an opinion letter from the ATF is ONLY good for the person to whom it is tendered in response to that person's SPECIFIC question (no matter how poorly they have phrased/asked such a question)...even then that's not always a "get-out-of-jail-free card" like what many desire to make it out to be, nor does that letter somehow become universally applicable to anyone in the same or like position. The "masses" relying on such a letter is a great way to get yourself in trouble if some law enforcement agent, AUSA/USA, etc. decide that they want to go after you for an actual (or even a perceived) violation of the law. Simply put...as with all "opinions"...they are subject to change without any real meaningful notice. There are very well-documented cases wherein the ATF has issued such an opinion letter (to both large commercial entities and to individual citizens) and then, unilaterally and without much if any warning, reversed its position.
Back to the OP for a minute...I'm not saying that you are right or wrong (you've been told what you have allegedly been told by the ATF and that is what it is). I have seen both sides to this argument and the positions taken by each (which have merit on both sides), but I have yet to see a published case/opinion indicating what a federal court might do when presented with the issue. Graham may come along and point to one (or more), but until then...I suggest that it is far, FAR better to be safe than sorry when it comes to issues that could very well get you branded as a federal felon, imprisoned for up to 10yrs and fined handsomely too for something as simple and cheap as getting your SBR'd receiver engraved.
Hang in there OP...this too shall pass.
All joking aside...ANYONE who comes onto a open Internet forum seeking legal advice about compliance with federal law/regs (or any law for that matter) is getting EXACTLY what they pay for in terms of quality/sound legal advice!!
"Somebody on the Internet told me so..." (regardless of who they are or make themselves out to be) is NOT a valid defense to a federal felony and life is NOT a State Farm commercial wherein you can't put it on the Internet if it isn't true. In fact...having seen that one get thrown out there (not by me nor one of my clients) in court...it does NOT go over well at all.
I will say, that an opinion letter from the ATF is ONLY good for the person to whom it is tendered in response to that person's SPECIFIC question (no matter how poorly they have phrased/asked such a question)...even then that's not always a "get-out-of-jail-free card" like what many desire to make it out to be, nor does that letter somehow become universally applicable to anyone in the same or like position. The "masses" relying on such a letter is a great way to get yourself in trouble if some law enforcement agent, AUSA/USA, etc. decide that they want to go after you for an actual (or even a perceived) violation of the law. Simply put...as with all "opinions"...they are subject to change without any real meaningful notice. There are very well-documented cases wherein the ATF has issued such an opinion letter (to both large commercial entities and to individual citizens) and then, unilaterally and without much if any warning, reversed its position.
Back to the OP for a minute...I'm not saying that you are right or wrong (you've been told what you have allegedly been told by the ATF and that is what it is). I have seen both sides to this argument and the positions taken by each (which have merit on both sides), but I have yet to see a published case/opinion indicating what a federal court might do when presented with the issue. Graham may come along and point to one (or more), but until then...I suggest that it is far, FAR better to be safe than sorry when it comes to issues that could very well get you branded as a federal felon, imprisoned for up to 10yrs and fined handsomely too for something as simple and cheap as getting your SBR'd receiver engraved.
Hang in there OP...this too shall pass.
Demanding that your opinion be made a sticky (regardless of whether you are "new here" or not)...more power to ya!! Be sure to let Frank know your opinion on how you think he should operate the Hide in other fashions as well...that usually gets you tons of thanks and praise for your input based on the enormity of your awe-inspiring contributions to the greater good around here.
All joking aside...ANYONE who comes onto a open Internet forum seeking legal advice about compliance with federal law/regs (or any law for that matter) is getting EXACTLY what they pay for in terms of quality/sound legal advice!!
"Somebody on the Internet told me so..." (regardless of who they are or make themselves out to be) is NOT a valid defense to a federal felony and life is NOT a State Farm commercial wherein you can't put it on the Internet if it isn't true. In fact...having seen that one get thrown out there (not by me nor one of my clients) in court...it does NOT go over well at all.
I will say, that an opinion letter from the ATF is ONLY good for the person to whom it is tendered in response to that person's SPECIFIC question (no matter how poorly they have phrased/asked such a question)...even then that's not always a "get-out-of-jail-free card" like what many desire to make it out to be, nor does that letter somehow become universally applicable to anyone in the same or like position. The "masses" relying on such a letter is a great way to get yourself in trouble if some law enforcement agent, AUSA/USA, etc. decide that they want to go after you for an actual (or even a perceived) violation of the law. Simply put...as with all "opinions"...they are subject to change without any real meaningful notice. There are very well-documented cases wherein the ATF has issued such an opinion letter (to both large commercial entities and to individual citizens) and then, unilaterally and without much if any warning, reversed its position.
Back to the OP for a minute...I'm not saying that you are right or wrong (you've been told what you have allegedly been told by the ATF and that is what it is). I have seen both sides to this argument and the positions taken by each (which have merit on both sides), but I have yet to see a published case/opinion indicating what a federal court might do when presented with the issue. Graham may come along and point to one (or more), but until then...I suggest that it is far, FAR better to be safe than sorry when it comes to issues that could very well get you branded as a federal felon, imprisoned for up to 10yrs and fined handsomely too for something as simple and cheap as getting your SBR'd receiver engraved.
Hang in there OP...this too shall pass.
I don't know where you get all your good and correct info, but as of late, I get all my good and correct info from the Internet.
As with all things in life, Eric...you gotta consider the SOURCE on the Internet before deeming any info "good and correct."
But I know what you mean...I seldom "hit the books" or do any non-electronic source for legal research and the like. Too time-consuming and, after all...time IS money (especially when the bill is adding up in 6-min increments).
I have never engraved any of my form 1 SBR's, and I have several approved. Whether it be right or wrong, my examiner told me it wasnt necessary. The serial number is used to place the weapon in the registry. If you are using an existing non NFA receiver that already has a serial number, then there is no need for another one.
As with all things in life, Eric...you gotta consider the SOURCE on the Internet before deeming any info "good and correct."
But I know what you mean...I seldom "hit the books" or do any non-electronic source for legal research and the like. Too time-consuming and, after all...time IS money (especially when the bill is adding up in 6-min increments).
I don't think looking at the Source is a right way to go either. You just have to evaluate the actual content of the info for what it is, because even a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in awhile (in other words, even a dummy can give you good info every once in awhile).
Unlike most people on Snipers Hide that can only see through a tunnel, I actually can view things from different angles. I myself always thought an engraving was needed only because I listened to "Reputable Sources" and never bothered to look into this myself. Now that I have heard enough from both sides.. I have flopped and now of the opinion that an Engraving on a Form 1 is not needed. However, with stuff like this, I will always take the side of caution and continue to do the engraving (unless I have a letter from the ATF addressed to me, stating that I do not need the engraving).
This lines up partially with what I was told. I was told I needed to engrave the name, but no need to come up with a new SN. This was confirmed by a friend that is an NFA collector and former FFL that has had the ATF at his home for inspections more than once (you used to be able to have a FFL without a place of business). While he is no lawyer, I trust his experience more than anyone else as he has more NFA items than most stores have guns.
EricCartmann said:
Who in the civilian world can "make" a machine gun? Not a dig-if there is a legal way to do that I am curious how you can "make" a MG.
Perhaps he meant full auto rifles, such as purchasing FA sears for particular weapons.
WOOOOOW and i gues since you have a whopping 370ish post your just now entering the dickhead stage of your postings. My brother lives in Eugene and i guess he was right you guys are a bunch of dicks. And i wouldnt know what im talking about being i have only class 3 weapons and lots of them with NO ENGRAVINGS on any of them that I Form 1'd. Go smoke some medical marijuana for your "MIGRANES" and quit trying to be a badass with 370 post, Its not a good look
And your proposed engagement well thats a false hood too, i know many of officers who arrest people for illegal sbr's and as long as your not a fucking idiot with a gun shop selling them they just confiscate the weapon and then give it to the police as a gift. They dont care about one guy in oregon they want the BIG TUNA FISH. Its a waste of time to prosecute for 1 gun.
Masked you seem like a stand up guy unlike the dickhead who like you said is associating post with quality info, Being that i own 3 gun stores i like to think i know what im doing.... well at least some of the time lol
Actually you and the TEXAS GUN TRUST LAWYER are wrong lol lemme ask you how many class 3 weapons to you actually own................Dont worry i will wait............... Oh NONE!!!!!!!!!
If you like i can post pics of my SBR's and SBS's and suppressors and all my approved stamps from the ATF and not one has an engraving that wasnt made by the original builder and YES THE ATF APPROVED ALL MY FORMS WITH NO ADDED ENGRAVING INFO OR SERIAL NUMBERS Wooooooooooooooow i guess these low post guys are just full of it. Go shoot your glock keep staring at all the cool SBR's with engravings <------- Thats a Joke BTW
Cartmann would a noob to snipershide who owns manyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Class 3 weapons and 3 gun stores be a well........ Some what reliable source?????
Wow, you hit that nail on the head.
Tag for later so I can show the ATF I got my info from the Internet...because you can't put something on the Internet if it's not true.
I've also seen it done many ways. Personally, I will engrave it with my trust name and be done with it. There's too much time and money involved to screw around...so, to me, it's better to be overly in compliance than maybe in compliance.
I've also seen it done many ways. Personally, I will engrave it with my trust name and be done with it. There's too much time and money involved to screw around...so, to me, it's better to be overly in compliance than maybe in compliance.
Better to engrave and not need it...
The Machine Gun Ban went in 1986. Before then there were various ways to legally "make" a machine gun.
Even these days, you can still "make" a Machine Gun with certain stipulations. I don't know the full details, but it involves something like
1) setting up a business to sell MG's to Agencies
2) you have your own range
3) Machine gun can't leave your range/store unless you are demoing it for a LE agency.
Again, I don't know all the details as I never really looked into it. Going this route will be much cheaper than buying LEGALLY REGISTERED machine guns.
I would say yes. Most of us are too lazy, Cartmann included, to research every single detail of everything in the world. However, even reliable sources could be wrong once in awhile, and I just like to keep in mind that my reliable sources could be wrong (though not likely, it can happen).
Bonjour....
You should stop talking about shit you don't know about.
It starts with a FFL manufacturing license (07) and class II SOT. But you can't sell newly created MGs to the public. Only to MIL/FED/LE agencies.
You can also do all the other basic tasks that a FFL (01) and a class III SOT can do as well.
You can build and play to your heart's content...but there's little money to be made in the MG world....most of it is made with suppressors and transferring dealer samples and pre-1986 MGs.
If you give up your license, then you give up the regulated items you have built....so, I'd personally would rather have a legally registered one that I can pass on as an heirloom. But, to each his own.
Also, it's about $1,000 a year for the class II SOT (class III is $500)....You also have any county and state taxes involved in owning a business and the FFL yearly renewal fee.
I am all ears, tell me where I am wrong?
Either way, if you want to play you have to pay.
You are probably right, It does seem like a lot of work to legally "make" machine guns, and probably be better to just buy a FULLY REGISTERED MG. With a Fully registered MG, you can always re-sell it anytime you want to dump it.
However, if you are in the game long term, have your own range, and want multiple machine guns.. I would go the Manufacturer route.
Lots of pissed off people on SnipersHide just because the world you live in conflicts with theirs! hahahaha
CARTMANN is pretty much bored of guns, but man how I love Gun Forums!!
CARTMANN is pretty much bored of guns, but man how I love Gun Forums!!
talk about getting off track. was a interesting read until allidoiswin started comming off as an arse trying to have a fight on the internet and then this post getting side tracked......
In my dealings with the ATF and Class III items, my understanding is that you need to engrave name, city and state.
Couple people have brought up the point, That it does not have to be engraved until you go to sell it, which means transfer it (cause the ATF does not give a shit how much money you do or do not get when doing a form 4 transfer)......so I bring this point up on why it should be engraved....your driving home, head on collision when another driver crosses road...your dead. Now your estate has to transfer this item. does the executor know that they then need to have your unengraved items engraved before transferring them? do they know the legal requirements of those marking and what to mark?
In my dealings with the ATF and Class III items, my understanding is that you need to engrave name, city and state.
Couple people have brought up the point, That it does not have to be engraved until you go to sell it, which means transfer it (cause the ATF does not give a shit how much money you do or do not get when doing a form 4 transfer)......so I bring this point up on why it should be engraved....your driving home, head on collision when another driver crosses road...your dead. Now your estate has to transfer this item. does the executor know that they then need to have your unengraved items engraved before transferring them? do they know the legal requirements of those marking and what to mark?
Your correct Desertfox01 and for that i apologize, but i do know my shit. Just trying to help some misinformed or undereducated on SBR guys out. Thats the only way i roll Class 3 i don't own any "Regular" guns, class 3 is just so much more fun. I have 13 pending stamps just for this year alone lol And the arse was the other guy implying since i was new to snipershide i obviously didnt know what i was talking about. But again my bad
Heres a video of me filming Andrew Lincoln shooting one of my guns at the range. In case you didnt know thats Rick from The Walking Dead.
ONLY WAY TO SHOOT A LWRC!! THE WALKING DEAD WAY!!! FULL AUTO - YouTube
Ohh and the rifle above IS NOT ENGRAVED
allidoiswin -
Throwing up your C-list "celebrity" connection was a nice touch. You were only being borderline douchey until then.
I had been wondering where he got his suppressor for this scene. Now that we know you were his instructor, mentor, friend, confidant, and class 3 supplier, it all makes sense.
Throwing up your C-list "celebrity" connection was a nice touch. You were only being borderline douchey until then.
I had been wondering where he got his suppressor for this scene. Now that we know you were his instructor, mentor, friend, confidant, and class 3 supplier, it all makes sense.
allidoiswin -
Throwing up your C-list "celebrity" connection was a nice touch. You were only being borderline douchey until then.
I had been wondering where he got his suppressor for this scene. Now that we know you were his instructor, mentor, friend, confidant, and class 3 supplier, it all makes sense.
Jealousy is NOT an admirable trait. If you watch the show you would know the its the end of the world, they have to make do with what they got TRUST me if they wanted a real suppressor they would have one.
