Please explain "driving" a gas gun and "loading" a bipod

[bluto77]

I've seen both of these phrases discussed on this board before, but a search didn't turn up as many threads as I had remembered seeing. I don't know that I'd consider myself a beginner, but I'm no expert by any means. I've been shooting gas guns for about 1.5 years now, but only been shooting paper with the main purpose being the smallest group possible for the last 6 months or so (previously was mainly shooting at hogs). I seem to have inconsistent groups with my AR. I'm currently shooting a Colt CRP-18, which comes with a MOA "guarantee" from the factory. My groups typically range in the 1" to 2" area with some dropping below 1" here and there. However, I did shoot two this past Saturday that would've easily been under .5 after trying to "drive" the rifle with my offhand. I'm not sure if that was the factoring difference, but the groups were smaller. I shoot off bags in the front and back, but I will be getting a bipod soon. I usually hold a bag with my offhand and position under the pistol grip or the butt stock so there is a dead rest, but I had it placed on the front bag lightly holding the rail when i shot the smaller groups. I've read quite a bit about "driving" a gas gun and "loading" a bipod, so I figured I would get some clarification. I know there are also a ton of other shooting fundamentals, namely position and/or set up prior to the shot, but I'm more interested in hearing about "driving" and "bipod loading".

 

[elfster1234]

Loading the bipod is strange.... My rock river likes the bipod slightly loaded where my LMT does not like any.. Something you just need to test.


Ive found that if you want stupid small groups its all about NOT moving cheek weld / scope view at all while keeping a slightly forward agressive position behind the rifle (diving the rifle)... trigger pull is just as important.. Before you shoot you need to keep a clear non-scopeshadow glass before you start your shots and keeping that consistent view thru the glass... Its all about being consistent with all of the above with every single pull of the trigger. Make sure you have side focus set correctly. Reloading is a whole different suject. Shooting a semi auto can be ultra fun while f#cking with your head at the same time.

 

[bluto77]

Does your offhand position have anything to do with it? I seemed to have better results with my offhand/non-shooting hand placed on the forend. I assumed this was helping control the 2nd recoil impulse I hear about in the gas gun.

 

[elfster1234]

The lower the bipod the better.

Right hand on the pistol grip and left and on the rear sand bag. Dont touch the forend.

Do you reload with the groups youre talking about?

Does your offhand position have anything to do with it? I seemed to have better results with my offhand/non-shooting hand placed on the forend. I assumed this was helping control the 2nd recoil impulse I hear about in the gas gun.

 

[bluto77]

I'm not reloading yet. The 1" - 2" groups were when shooting 55 gr 5.56 ammo from Independence as well as Fed Eagle 55 gr .223, basically the cheap stuff. The past couple of weekends I used Blackhills 55.6 77gr because that's what I've heard the rifle likes (Colt CRP-18). That's when i was getting in the .75 to 1.5 groups with the one or two in the .5'ish range, and the 2 really small groups that were well below .5. Mind you, that's Colt's top end AR right now, so it's supposed to be shooting that well. But those smaller groups occurred when i was holding on to the forend. I always somewhat lean into the rifle with my shoulder, but being careful to not push too hard. My trigger hand sits with a light grip positioned so I have a good 90 degree trigger position. Cheek weld stays in the same place.

 

[kraigWY]

I always got a kick out of the term "driving a rifle". My opinion was you drive a truck and shoot a rifle.

THEN:

I got the DVD from Rifles Only, Precision rifle disk one. Made a fool of me, Jacob Bynum explains it perfectly. Just like you drive a car. I'm not going to try to explain it the way Jacob does, I couldn't. But if you're serious about learning that type of shooting, I'd highly recommend getting the DVD from Rifles only. It'll answer your questions on "driving a rifle", "loading the bipod" etc, and much more.

 

[rchman]

For the most part, ball ammo is only capable of 2-3 MOA (extreme spread) when shooting ten shot groups. I had good luck with Black Hills 77gr in my 223. FGMM is also a good go to factory loaded ammunition if you want to eliminate the ammunition variable to the best degree without going to handloads.

There's several good videos on taking advantage of the bipod and driving the rifle put together by this site and available on the Youtube channel. I'd start there. Gas guns are a lot harder to wring the accuracy out than a good bolt action.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Generally folks will shoot better off a pack or bag (or tripod) than a bipod. Bipods come with their own little idiosyncrasies, and some guns prefer different pressures, as long as the bipod is not hoping around off the ground.

Generally on bolt guns and bipods I push my weight forward into the gun and tension (load) the bipod -- it provides a more stable platform.

For reasons I cannot fathom, my SR-25 prefers a lighter touch on the bipod,

 

[Name Enough]

Based on my own experience with gas guns let me state the following -
A gas gun needs to settle in and like itself before it gives up it's best performance. For me this has been anywhere from 80 to 400 rounds.
After initally firing and cleaning it is very important to get all the copper out of the barrel.
Best performance is realized by handloading rounds that the rifle likes. This can mean trying a couple of different powders and different bullets.
Training is worth the money and will lead to faster results. Its better to start without bad habbits.
Leaning into the tripod can lead to better or worse results depending on a vareity of factors.
Gripping the forearm can initally lead to better groups - For my case when I was trying this I think it was because I was being more focused and concentrating more.
The best shooting position depends on what you end aim is.
I practice off bags - with a tripod - off my field pack - kneeling - sitting and offhand to know what I am capable (not much!) in each position.
Last of all -
Shooting can be highly rewarding and also sometimes highly fustrating. Just when you think you have it all figured out you start getting crap groups.
Its God's way of keeping great men humble.

 

[elfster1234]

Id say you are on the right track if youre not reloading... You might have a small area of improvement with factory ammo but you will not come full circle until you start reloading. When it comes to shooting small groups at 100yards ive always said it is 40%shooter 40%rifle and 20%ammo.... When shooting at 300yards plus you have more of an edge on shooter error with wind and mirage and the shooter becomes much more important and art form really meets science in the middle... Obviously the further out you take the target the more wind blowing in multiple directions can effect your impact. My .7moa average semi auto shooting would be much higher if it wasnt for the fact i reload. Knowing for a fact every match grade round is sitting on a perfect and consistent powder charge makes a huge difference.

Bipod jump on different surfaces is something to really keep an eye on. Try a sandbag front and back once and see results.

Remember my last M.E.O.C.W target run on my last LMT shootout entry where i ran 11 out of 12 groups sub moa??? Something ive never done before and has seriously been a damn near year long quest with my LMT??? I think multiple factors from changing out my bipod from 9-13" to 6-9", using a tad more ogive seating depth / increasing my bullet jump .005", and shooting my different reload powder drop rates round robin style made that difference along with my massive mindset of keeping consistent form with my shooting stance / cheek weld / and scope view. One thing is for damn sure once you see me take my shots i will not move my stance or head from cheekweld until my group is done.


Semi auto will make any bolt action boy question their shooting abilities. It really is a whole different animal and can really screw with your head when shooting for groups. It is hard to listen to others explain this phenomenon until you actually go thru the experience and pain yourself. Expecting .5moa groups on every group with a semi auto is kidding yourself especially with a .308 and higher bullet... I would push for the goal of sub moa and be happy with it.... If 5 out of 6 groups are sub moa, then youre kicking some real ass!

I'm not reloading yet. The 1" - 2" groups were when shooting 55 gr 5.56 ammo from Independence as well as Fed Eagle 55 gr .223, basically the cheap stuff. The past couple of weekends I used Blackhills 55.6 77gr because that's what I've heard the rifle likes (Colt CRP-18). That's when i was getting in the .75 to 1.5 groups with the one or two in the .5'ish range, and the 2 really small groups that were well below .5. Mind you, that's Colt's top end AR right now, so it's supposed to be shooting that well. But those smaller groups occurred when i was holding on to the forend. I always somewhat lean into the rifle with my shoulder, but being careful to not push too hard. My trigger hand sits with a light grip positioned so I have a good 90 degree trigger position. Cheek weld stays in the same place.

 

[usafabrad]

Just a quick question: for Gas Guns, do you guys see any more MV consistency when using a piston system vs. direct impingement? Also, are there any aftermarket .308 piston systems out there with a high degree of comparative reliability?

 

[elfster1234]

I think the general Consensus is di has a small edge on piston systems..... Let the flaming begin!!! Lol

Just a quick question: for Gas Guns, do you guys see any more MV consistency when using a piston system vs. direct impingement? Also, are there any aftermarket .308 piston systems out there with a high degree of comparative reliability?

 

[Mauser KAR98K]

I am having this exact same frustration that the OP and Elfster have pointed out. i am very new to this type of shooting, but I do know about loading bi-pods. Driving a rifle is very new to me as of this thread.

I am running a MK12 that I know is a very capable sub MOA rifle, but I can not seem to duplicate a string I did three months ago. The major problem I am having is keeping the rifle steady. I am jumping all over the place.

I'm also new so I am trying to search what a proper position is.

 

[Unknown]

Another issue about gas guns is that the triggers require more control, or perhaps it is a different type of control than a bolt gun with a 1.5 pound trigger...sort of like the difference between shooting a 1911 with a nice crisp trigger, and shooting a revolver double action. Many people say control the trigger, but don't explain what that means. To me, controlling the trigger has to happen in both the rearward direction, and on it's forward motion when you allow the trigger to reset. Pulling the trigger needs to be done in such a way that the sights don't move while you are pulling the trigger. Same for my reset movement.

Many shooters get the sights aligned precisely where they want it, then they pull the trigger. In the act of pulling the trigger, they subtly move the sights in relationship to the target. After I learned how to pull the trigger without moving the sights, then I had to also learn how to reset the trigger. All the proper reset does is to force me to follow through more with the rearward pull. I didn't know how much the reset helped me on the overall trigger control for quite a long time. Perhaps this all amounts to more awareness of the process of pulling the trigger, rather than just yanking on it.

 

[blu109]

dig some small holes 1.5-2" into the ground with a knife,multitool at your firing position for your bipod legs, apply the sAme pressures to the rifle each time, consistency equals accuracy...damn I want to go shooting now

 

[pyrotechnic]

Generally on bolt guns and bipods I push my weight forward into the gun and tension (load) the bipod -- it provides a more stable platform.

For reasons I cannot fathom, my SR-25 prefers a lighter touch on the bipod,

I'm relatively new to shooting a gas gun as a precision rig, but my experience mirrors the above. I've shot my best when pulling my buttstock tightly into my shoulder yet having a very light load on the bipod. With the bolt gun I shoot my best when I load the piss out of the pod.

 

[bluto77]

My rifle came with a Giessle SSA (I think). Control during trigger pull is something I feel like I'm pretty good at, just not as consistent as I need to be. I also "follow through", holding the trigger down long enough after the shot is taken for me to look through the scope to see where it hit, and at some point I think slowly let it back out to reset. I do find that I get better groups when I shoot them faster rather than slow and taking a lot of time between shots to mind-phuck myself. That may be because I don't let anything change, and I'm also probably driving the rifle more effectively. I'll check out the training info that's here on the hide. That can only help!

 

[Mattrmvpd]

Driving a gas gun: In my words...

Many years ago I used to hear from buddies that shooting a bolt rifle and shooting a gassed rifle are the same.... Well.. those people are not my buddies any longer. A gas gun is a completely different beast. Some here have said driving is done with a vehicle and shooting is done with a gun. Well...in essense we are driving the rifle and guiding the bullet.

Many keep saying fundamentals... fundamentals... well with a gas gun it is MORE than just the fundamentals. Lock time... trigger pressure...reset...spring tension...BCG movement... It all plays such a massive part in utilizing a gas gun and getting the most accuracy out of the rifle.

For me it has alwasy been easy to over rush a bolt rifle and stay accurate with it but rushing a gas gun can prove to be VERY inaccurate. I could sit here and tell you what I do step by step but it would bore you to death. It ALL comes down to patience. Go slow on the trigger and wait for it to sound off and then hold it for the reset. The trigger is one of the BIGGEST parts of a gas gun. To me that is where the $$$$$$ is WELL spent. Of course a good accurate barrel is a must as well along with the proper instal. But all of that figured in the match triggers on the markete are a MUST.

The biggest advice is... PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Get into a routine and stick with it. Once you have found a great routine that gives good accuracy continue to practice and develope the round.

Just my .02 worth...

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA)

 

[onethousandmeters]

Another great thread. I've just sold my bolt gun, and while I've had SEVERAL over the years, I've never really held on to them for very long. I've always liked gas-guns, but have been able to shoot better groups with a bolt gun. Now, I too am new to gas-gun shooting, and am enjoying threads like these. Maybe after reading several, I'll get a better picture of what rifle to buy. Decisions, decision...

 

[tylerw02]

I always got a kick out of the term "driving a rifle". My opinion was you drive a truck and shoot a rifle.

This guy thought you shot revolvers.

 

[bluto77]

I'm going to check out some of the instructional info on snipershide, and use it at the range on saturday. I'm going to finally finish one of the 6 group 100 yard challenges. I have a tendency to start them, and then around group 4 suddenly fall apart and not finish. Maybe if some of you see my shot patterns you could provide more "expert" insight.

 

[elfster1234]

I actually wish people would finish and post their results regardless if they make the top ten or not... It is all good information.

I'm going to check out some of the instructional info on snipershide, and use it at the range on saturday. I'm going to finally finish one of the 6 group 100 yard challenges. I have a tendency to start them, and then around group 4 suddenly fall apart and not finish. Maybe if some of you see my shot patterns you could provide more "expert" insight.

 

[Lowlight]

Driving the Rifle is another way to describe Follow Through

Too many shooter disengage from the rifle the moment the trigger is depressed. They "tap" the trigger, and with a bolt action that has a super light trigger, many people can get away with a trigger manipulation style this way. The lighter the trigger, the bigger the problem, but also people believe the better, because they are putting less input into the system. The trigger is the start button, not the stop. The machine is turned on when you press the trigger, although most new shooters are relieved the shot, in their mind is over. Wrong.

Follow Through

It's the most neglected fundamental of them all, and a Gas Gun will exploit this for many of the reasons noted above. Lock Time, Movement, etc.

What we are saying by "driving the rifle" is putting your focus to the reticle, that is where the bullet is going, and keeping it there until the recoil pulse is over. We have video, we can easily see that the rifles, if shot properly using proven techniques, like Loading the Bipod, will move very little. The goal is for that movement to be in a straight line. Bullet exits the barrel, recoil goes straight back into the shoulder pocket. The flex on the bipod should be small, maybe 1/4 to a 1/2 inch or so. We can easily maintain our sight picture if we focus through the scope, watching the reticle on the target.

Where ARE the Sights, vs Where WERE the Sights

The Old Mantra was, "where WERE the sights when the shot broke" this helped the shooter stay focused and follow through. Not just following through on the trigger but mentally. With a Sling you absolutely are gonna rock off target, then roll back, if your NPA was correct. So moving with the recoil, we had to ask, where "WERE" the sights. Makes perfect sense. However when shooting supported, like off a bipod, we know, again, thanks to video, we move very little so the question becomes, "where ARE the sights"... Don't lose focus or sight picture.

Loading the bipod helps manage recoil. This helps with follow through as well as follow up shots. So learning one assists the other.

Driving the rifle is about Follow Through and Calling your Shots. As most people know 99% of the time whether or not it is gonna be a good shot or not before the trigger breaks. We see the reticle drift ever so slightly and think, "how bad can it be" and continue to shoot. Bad idea. You know if it is good or not, you're watching the sights, so if it's starting to drift, stop and reset. This is why we dry fire, to know the trigger. It should NOT be a surprise. We tell that to someone who has never shot before to keep them from flinching. A proficient shooter knows exactly when the shot will break. How do you think "command fire" works... count down, 4, 3, TWO, 1... shooter takes the shot on the "T" in 2, assaulters kick the door on one.

Here lies the problem, we have ever so slightly different discplines when it comes to shooting. What works for a Sling shooter can be slightly different from the benchrest shooter, which is close to an F Class shooter, but not the same as a Tactical Shooter because he is combining all of them together. On top of that, he is using different systems. One size does not fit all, which is why we invest in custom made things. We want to tailor the suit to fit, not just grab it off the shelf and go...

 

[Deej]

Wow, lowlight, never heard it described so well. glad I read to the bottom before throwing my hat in the ring.

 

[northshore440]

Driving the Rifle is another way to describe Follow Through

Too many shooter disengage from the rifle the moment the trigger is depressed. They "tap" the trigger, and with a bolt action that has a super light trigger, many people can get away with a trigger manipulation style this way. The lighter the trigger, the bigger the problem, but also people believe the better, because they are putting less input into the system. The trigger is the start button, not the stop. The machine is turned on when you press the trigger, although most new shooters are relieved the shot, in their mind is over. Wrong.

Follow Through

It's the most neglected fundamental of them all, and a Gas Gun will exploit this for many of the reasons noted above. Lock Time, Movement, etc.

What we are saying by "driving the rifle" is putting your focus to the reticle, that is where the bullet is going, and keeping it there until the recoil pulse is over. We have video, we can easily see that the rifles, if shot properly using proven techniques, like Loading the Bipod, will move very little. The goal is for that movement to be in a straight line. Bullet exits the barrel, recoil goes straight back into the shoulder pocket. The flex on the bipod should be small, maybe 1/4 to a 1/2 inch or so. We can easily maintain our sight picture if we focus through the scope, watching the reticle on the target.

Where ARE the Sights, vs Where WERE the Sights

The Old Mantra was, "where WERE the sights when the shot broke" this helped the shooter stay focused and follow through. Not just following through on the trigger but mentally. With a Sling you absolutely are gonna rock off target, then roll back, if your NPA was correct. So moving with the recoil, we had to ask, where "WERE" the sights. Makes perfect sense. However when shooting supported, like off a bipod, we know, again, thanks to video, we move very little so the question becomes, "where ARE the sights"... Don't lose focus or sight picture.

Loading the bipod helps manage recoil. This helps with follow through as well as follow up shots. So learning one assists the other.

Driving the rifle is about Follow Through and Calling your Shots. As most people know 99% of the time whether or not it is gonna be a good shot or not before the trigger breaks. We see the reticle drift ever so slightly and think, "how bad can it be" and continue to shoot. Bad idea. You know if it is good or not, you're watching the sights, so if it's starting to drift, stop and reset. This is why we dry fire, to know the trigger. It should NOT be a surprise. We tell that to someone who has never shot before to keep them from flinching. A proficient shooter knows exactly when the shot will break. How do you think "command fire" works... count down, 4, 3, TWO, 1... shooter takes the shot on the "T" in 2, assaulters kick the door on one.

Here lies the problem, we have ever so slightly different discplines when it comes to shooting. What works for a Sling shooter can be slightly different from the benchrest shooter, which is close to an F Class shooter, but not the same as a Tactical Shooter because he is combining all of them together. On top of that, he is using different systems. One size does not fit all, which is why we invest in custom made things. We want to tailor the suit to fit, not just grab it off the shelf and go...

Perhaps this should be a sticky?

 

[bluto77]

Thanks for the good info LL. You should start a website or something about shooting rifles.....

Elfster, I'll be sure to finish one of the 6 group 100 yard challenges, regardless of how pissed off I get when that inevitable flyer jumps out of the barrel in the 3rd group!

 

[SD26]

Loading the bipod helps manage recoil. This helps with follow through as well as follow up shots. So learning one assists the other.

Hey, Lowlight, can you explain this a little more?

I struggle with how to accomplish the loading of the bipod.

Should one position one's hand on the grip, place the rifle in their shoulder, snug it all up, then creep forward to load the bipod? How does one recognize that they are not just twisting a shoulder into the bipod to produce the loading...but, after some fatigue, one potentially looses the loading and, as a result, accuracy falls off with the mismanagement of recoil?

(Enjoy the DVD very much...I think I need to get it out again and head to the range with my kids.)

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

The problem for most folks is upon shouldering the rifle, instead of aligning sights to eyeball and building the position without looking at the target, they are distracted by the target, and steer to it using muscle to get a sight picture. Then, because they have not properly adjusted NPA, shot misplacement is assured. Since the typical gas gun actually fits most shooters better than off the rack bolt guns the shooter who has not adjusted NPA does not realize he is not muscularly relaxed so, even when follow through is good, shots will be called somewhere other than "right-in-there". This error with NPA adjustment is something that dry firing does not reveal, unless the shooter is shooting with bone alone such as in the standing position.
At any rate, here's my advice regardless of what you are shooting from/with, or discipline:

!. Without looking at target, shoulder the rifle and align sights cognizant of the 5 factors of a steady position.
2. Adjust NPA to get desired sight picture
3. Pull focus to sight
4. SMOOTH trigger control
5. Follow through

Proper integrated execution allows calling the shot and thereby shooter/target analysis is possible from call/strike evaluation.

BTW, I do not think shooting a gas gun is more difficult than shooting a bolt gun. A shooter who knows what's important to good shooting can get indistinguishable results from any match conditioned concept.

 

[Lowlight]

I will get into loading the bipod later,

to help with NPA, I have everyone point the rifle to the target, then stand up behind it. I give them the time before to adjust everything on target as they would, then reset. The shooter, standing behind can now align to the rifle which is pointed to the target. The next step is adjustment of their NPA to include the the fine adjustment. This is where the benefits of a supported position like a bipod has its highlights. It will stay on target, allowing them focus on their NPA, preventing the target fixation, and putting the emphasis on the position.

Being straight behind the rifle assists in setting up the NPA. The shooter offset position, where the body is angled encourages muscling, because they are not straight and don't have a concept of where their body should be, so they muscle. After repeating the process pointing the body to the rifle pointed to the target, you build repeatable image. From there you can train the same process with the shooter holding the rifle, indexing on the target, dropping straight down in line. You're on target faster and more effectively then being offset.

Indexing is the key, you index the butt stock to the inside of the foot, then drop to a knee and index again, the down to body and shoulders. It lines the spine up, keeps the shoulders square. Removing the angles and ultimately complimenting NPA not fighting against it.

 

[-=boone=-]

Arch your back upward and lift your upper body off the ground, while keeping the rifle firmly on in your shoulder pocket. Come straight back down. If done properly, you’ll notice that there is tension on the bipod, pushing the rifle slightly forward, while the bipod is pushing the rifle back into your shoulder. You are not pushing with your shoulder. You are using your entire body mass to achieve this.

 

[Lowlight]

There is more than one way to load the bipod, the key is, not to use your shoulders. It's core weight.

Too many load the bipod by pushing their shoulders in to the rifle. Or what happens is they don't have the proper contact with the rifle and the shoulder pocket so they load it, but then unload it again when the pull the rifle back into the pocket.

With a Harris on Concrete, I like to raise up and come straight down as noted above. A Harris has no flex it in so doesn't load as well on hard surfaces. With an Atlas you can take up the flex in the system. That is really all you are doing.

The load comes from the core, your belt buckle is where is load starts and stops. The waist down should be relaxed with no forward tension, and the shoulders should be square and relaxed.

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This is a couple years old now, and was done a long time ago for the online training. It was part 3 as there were several other parts before it. So it is not a complete picture, just a review.

Other problems include, sympathetic squeezing of the support hand, or not using the support hand to stabilize the rear of the rifle. This causes the back end to fish tail in the shoulder pocket moving it at the muzzle away from the target. A poor trigger squeeze can also be a cause, as well as not pressing the rifle straight back into the shoulder pocket with the firing hand. Remember recoil will exploit any angle and point of weakness.

Easily concrete is the hardest surface to shoot off of and to stay on target. And staying on target doesn't means to within millimeters, but within a few inches in this case. As you move to grass or other, more forgiving surfaces you can reduce the amount of movement, but concrete is within a mil or two in the scope.

 

[timelinex]

Lowlight knows what he's talking about.

Honestly in my opinion, one of the biggest game changers is the follow through. Which is holding the trigger in the back position and staying still and aware, all the way until the recoil subsides. I have found no matter what I'm shooting (bolt gun, semi, handgun etc...) this fundamental has kept me on track with respectably well shooting and made me feel good about my shot.

I was signed up in the online training, when they had it, and I went thru it before ever using an AR. I was so used to good follow thru that when I got an AR, I immediately shot it as well as I would any other bolt rifle, without even realizing that it's actually trickier to shoot well. I can't say the same about my other friends that don't apply these principles....

That double impulse makes follow thru that much more important, hence 'driving' the rifle correctly.

 

[Maestro Pistolero]

Except for lowlight, of course, I have barely seen dry-firing mentioned in this thread. Until we can release the trigger while holding the reticle perfectly on the target without disturbing the reticle AT ALL, there is no sense wasting even one round of ammo.

 

[bluto77]

Lowlight, are the same principles applied when shooting from a bench? I plan on starting to shoot prone at some point, but as of now I shoot from the bench at the 100 - 300 range.



Edit: By the way, I'm adding pics of groups from this past weekend just to give an idea of my shooting level. These were shot with the Colt CRP-18 at 100 yards using Black Hills 77gr 2.23 ammo. I was shooting from a bench using a front and back bag. I tried to concentrate on follow through, but I have to admit I was mostly fixated on the target and not building the proper shooting position before looking at the target. I'll have to start doing that. Sorry Elfster, I didn't quite do all 6 groups because I was shooting groups with a different rifle too. There's actually 4 more groups on the other side of the page, but I'm not going to post those!

 

[Tack425]

Excellent information! Tagged for future follow up

 

[74sidefolder]

Awesome advice here!

 

[bluto77]

I made a lot of changes at one time. Scope,bullet and bags. Thats a 2 1/2 inch wood box under the front bag,without it the rear bag is too high. A bag rider plate is installed on the forend because the tube is round. I knew this rifle would shoot,tight neck and fast barrel but creates a hellva lot of pressure for the load. Bags, it's a whole different ballgame than bipod. It also creates problems without a good front rest such as muzzle jump causing the shot to go high. Since I squeeze the rear bag (because there is no elevation adjustment on the front) even a heavy barrel rifle will jump if the sand gets hard, if the rifle has enough recoil.

My bipod stud was also drilled off center from the factory and once I installed the plate it was obvious. With a bipod the rifle would jump to the right,with bags it would track to the right creating horizontial until I redrilled the attachment point. I know this is a tactical sight,but 5 shot groups is benchrest. There is a art to shooting bipod, also an art to shooting bags. The purpose of bags is more than support. With bags you want the rifle to recoil straight back ,no or little restriction. You should be looking at the x ring after recoil. A rifle has recoil either to the rear, side, or up.

I got my ass waxed when I first switched to eared bags. Shooting in the .9's. Still working on it. So yes, I say it helps IF you rifle is set up to ride the bags. And no doubt I'll get my ass handed to me buy a bipod shooter.

I quoted this from elfster's 100 yard challenge thread. This guy is at the top of the leader board and has a .19 MOA group! http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...yard-semi-auto-6group-30round-shootout-5.html Plenty of interesting information in it, and just happened to be a few things I was going to come back to this thread and ask.

I'm still shooting on bags right now, so I'll start with that. I have 2 different front bags, but they're both of the same basic design. This is nearly my exact set with the difference being the rear bag is not angled.

I have the Caldwell set shown, and also have a Browning front bag just like this one. The Caldwell bag is stuffed full of sand and is pretty hard. The Browning bag seems to be more loose, and I"m able to stand it up on it's side and make a U shaped wedge for the arm of the rifle to sit in (barrel not touching of course). Then I place the rear bag under the buttstock with my offhand and "maneuver it" to control the elevation. I recently quit using the Caldwell bag because it was too hard and I couldn't dig the rifle into a solid feeling position. I noticed an immediate improvement. I didn't think about it at the time, but now I know why. The hard bag was causing the muzzle to jump more right? I get less jump now with the other bag, BUT I have found that if I basically "load" the front bag in the same manner loading a bipod has been discussed here, I get much better groups. That is a real correlation and not just my imagination right?

Let's talk rear bags. The Caldwell rear bag I've been using (pictured above) doesn't seem to ever be tall enough to work without "maneuvering" it into a position that it wasn't designed to be in. I'll turn it on it's side, squeeze it, tilt it, or whatever I need to do in order to get on target. While it works to a degree, I have to think that it's not the best way to do it because "maneuvering" the way I do makes me lose one of the biggest things needed to shoot small groups which is consistency. I'm holding it somewhat different many times. Don't get me wrong, it probably stays in relatively the same position during a 5 shot group, but it does end up moving around a little bit. What kind of bag is Lowlight using in the instructional video? That one looks large enough that all I would have to do to change the elevation would be moving the rear bag forward and backwards, which is the way it was designed in the first place right?

I also wanted to ask about bipod mounting placement. I have an Atlas with the QD mount for picatinny rails so I can swap it out on my rifles. I'm assuming it needs to be mounted in the exact same place every time. Can it cause your zero or POI to change if you mount it one rail forward or back from where it was when the rifle was zeroed? Or am I throwing my zero off no matter what every time it is remounted, regardless of which slot on the picatinny it's being mounted on.

I also wanted to thank everyone for their advice. I have incorporated all of it into my shooting and have seen considerable improvement in consistency as well as accuracy. The main things I'm focusing on are
- Starting with my shoulders square to the target (this has helped tremendously!). Although odd feeling at first since I'm shooting from a bench, it seems to help control recoil and makes it easier to "load" the front bag with core weight and not shoulder push.
- Build a good shooting position from behind the rifle and aligning it with the target.
- Focusing on NPA before I even look at the target. I had a MAJOR problem with target fixation.
- Continuing to focus on NPA as I do finally look at the target and make fine adjustments, all while being sure not to "fight" my NPA (I can hear Lowlight's words from the video as I set up for the shot)
- Loading the front bag by arching my back a bit and letting my core weight do the loading as opposed to shoulder push
- Making sure I'm not "muscling" anything. No muscles are flexed. If they are, I back off and reset.
- Follow through. Starting with my shoulders square to the target and loading the front bag with my core weight makes it very easy to keep my eye on the target the entire time and keep the reticle on target, which in turn allows me to maintain my cheek weld throughout the group. I'm getting to a point where the reticle is not moving more than 2 mils off the target whenever I shoot.

Shooting is so much more fun when you're shooting MOA the whole time!