• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Gunsmithing Thoughts on barrel fluting?

bhart89

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 28, 2009
182
0
LA
I have a Bartlein 6.5 heavy varmint blank on the way to have screwed onto a a Remington 700 which will be chambered in .260 Remington. What are the pros/cons to fluting? Is the heavy varmint contour thick enough to flute?

I'll admit to thinking fluting looks cool but I don't know if the cooling properties are enough to justify getting it done especially if there are any drawbacks I'm not aware of.

What are the pros/cons of fluting?
 
Thank you very much for that link which concluded the following...


CONCLUSION ON BARREL FLUTING....

When comparing two barrels of equal weight, length, and material but one is solid and other is fluted, the fluted barrel will have:

*A larger diameter

Greater stiffness (depending on how the extra diameter/weight is distributed)

Vibrate at a higher* frequency (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)

Less muzzle sag (depending on how the extra diameter/ weight is distributed)

Fluting a solid barrel will:

*Reduce its weight

Reduce its stiffness

Increase its natural frequency of vibration

Decrease its muzzle sag.

Reducing the weight of a barrel by fluting makes a stiffer barrel than reducing the weight by decreasing its diameter.

A shorter barrel of the same section, solid or fluted, will sag less and vibrate at a higher frequency.
 
It's all about looks.

You're removing material so it will be lighter, but not so much that you'll barely notice.
You're increasing the surface area so it will dissipate heat quicker, but you'll need a temp probe to notice it. Also by removing material in the flutes you're reducing the mass of the barrel so it will heat up quicker negating any benefit of increased cooling.

It looks cool though.
 
And they are harder to keep clean. If it wasn't a losing trade-off, we'd have fluted M777's. To see any real gains, the diameter would have to be so big that you might as well keep the M24 contour.

Rule number one; barrels of the same WEIGHT have the same stiffness. Aka, there's no free lunch.
 
Last edited:
not quite right. two barrels the same length and same weight, one fluted and one not, the fluted barrel will be stiffer.

I'm with 300 on this one.
Fluting adds to the looks of a gun, no doubt. For me, when a barrel rarely lasts a year and a half, I'm not paying the money for it. Especially if done afterward, not from the maker. If it will last three years, maybe?
 
I have a Bartlein 6.5 heavy varmint blank on the way to have screwed onto a a Remington 700 which will be chambered in .260 Remington. What are the pros/cons to fluting? Is the heavy varmint contour thick enough to flute?

I'll admit to thinking fluting looks cool but I don't know if the cooling properties are enough to justify getting it done especially if there are any drawbacks I'm not aware of.

What are the pros/cons of fluting?


Benchrest and scare tactics.

Early on in this trade it was impressed upon me by sacred cows of the benchrest community that it took some sort of magical divine intervention to flute a barrel w/o ruining it. The benchrest community has always enjoyed a sort of "final word" stature amongst us gun nuts. How do you argue with a rifle that puts 5 shots inside the diameter of a pencil eraser right? It was beaten into my thick skull so hard that I avoided it all together.

As time wore on more and more guys started fluting barrels and slowly the "cardinal fiction" changed.

Bottom line is this:

Fluting (done well) looks really cool.
It does make the barrel weigh less than what it did prior to fluting.


That's all it does. The barrel was as stiff as it was ever going to be prior to fluting it. Cutting away material didn't suddenly make it stiffer.
It does offer more surface area than one that does not have flutes. Just as fins on a lawn mower aid in convection, so will this increase in surface area on your barrel. But know that its at the expense of reducing the "soak" time (my word that I made up) that it takes for the barrel to heat up. It takes less heat to make a little piece of wire glow than it does a 1" piece of rebar. MASS is what your dealing with. Not SHAPES.

If the expense of having it done makes sense to you, then by all means do it. Pick a shop that's reputable for this service.

Fwiw I've fluted quite a few now here in our facility. That last two weeks have resulted in some very long weekends and late nights as I completely changed how I used to do it. The result of that hard work has been extremely rewarding.

Here's one I ran late yesterday afternoon. The smaller barrel is a factory M700 take off. The larger is a new Bartlein. You'll hear things like causing stress in the steel, etc. . . when having this done on an existing barrel. Ignore them as its from folks who don't fully understand what machining metal actually does. Your not causing stress, your removing it.

A simple analogy: Make a ball out of rubber bands. Everything is stretched and pulled; its full of "inner turmoil." Now take a pair of small scissors and snip at random bits here and there till you have all the bands cut at least once. This is what machining does. The stress is gone, there's just no assurance that the ball is still a sphere. It might very well take on the shape of an egg now instead.

BUT if we were to remove all/most of the tension in the bands by some magical process (heat is a pretty good one, so is extreme cold) prior to cutting them then we would have a reasonable expectation that our ball would still look like a ball when we attacked it with the scissors. -right??

The key here is getting the steel properly "normalized" before hand. (aka- stress relieved) Normalizing aligns all the little grains/molecules/whatever in the steel. It goes a long way towards removing this stress. If the stress is already gone, then cutting on it won't somehow create it from thin air. It'll just put grooves in the steel which is all your really after. This is something barrel makers do as a standard part of their manufacturing. It's been done for decades now and they know what they are doing. You don't have to fret over it.


If you dig around and read the internet there's various stories about how it should be done. The "tool and die" (blech!) makers will likely tell you that you must take extremely light cuts and not put ANY heat in the barrel as you machine it. -cause you'll induce "stress". (right about the time you read this is when the urge to place the Glock in your mouth starts to take over)

I've PROVEN that you don't have to take multiple light cuts. I flute our barrels at over 900SFM (Surface Feet per Minute) DRY with no coolant and a .005"/tooth chip load! (This is machinist vernacular for "Chad doesn't F$ck around when fluting a barrel") The chips are blue hot when they fly off. The barrel is luke warm at best when I'm done. The noise inside the shop as it cuts again compells you to reach for the pistol. They come out of the machine completely finished. No 2ndary operations required. The key is choosing the right tooling, the right inserts, and developing the proper fixturing so that you can push your machines to operate at a level they are designed for. Modern tooling is nothing short of amazing. The fancy coatings they apply to inserts truly are worth every penny.

Bottom line. Have it done if you want to and fear not.

Good luck and happy 4th.

C.


PS: The engraving is Wylie Coyote w/the Ghost buster circle/slash line thingy through the middle. This barrel is for a local guy who has a serious morbid hatred for coyotes.

(James Oneill of OneillOps.com)










 
Last edited:
Chad,
What are your thoughts on hanging a can on a spiral fluted barrel? Seems like while it provides more surface area, and more weight savings, it would be less stiff then a straight fluted barrel; possibly causing a greater poi change, although it may be repeatable? Btw, the finish on that barrel is amazing; especially considering it's all done at once!
 
Last edited:
Turk, I have no clue. My gut says it'd be fine, but I am well exercised in being wrong so who knows.

Id suspect that the masses out there w/helically fluted barrels would be lighting torches and sharpening the sickles if it were causing guns to go scatterbrain.

Thanks for the compliment. My new fixture for doing this stuff is working really well. What I really like is the lightning quick setup. No clamps/wheels, wigits needed anymore.

Fun stuff!
 
Chad,
My guess is that it will be less stiff; but definitely has the "kool" factor. You have impeccable craftsmanship; your work looks like it belongs in a photo shoot for the cover of a magazine!
 
I wrote an article on this: Fluted Barrel | Bison Ballistics

Bottom line: It decreases mass and stiffness, and will change the way the barrel vibrates slightly. The impact this has on accuracy is unclear, if it exists at all.

In addition to what I wrote in the linked article, you get a little more surface area which should marginally help the cooling rate. Of course, with less mass, your barrel is going to get hotter in the first place, so you'll need it.

And they cost money and look cool. Go for it if it floats your boat.
 
Chad, whats with the end of the flutes? Any way to avoid that goofy angle change in the flute?
 
The angle at the beginning and end of the flutes is caused by using a wheel type cutter set parallel to the bore axis. So when cutter enters the cut it enters square. When the cutters enters the rotation of the helix its no longer cutting parallel to the bore axis per say but a helix angle. The only ways I know to prevent this would be to run a ball type endmill plunged directly into the top of the barrel, but this is not the best and most productive means and is hard on cutters. The other way would be a multi axis machine center with the ability to tip the head to match the helix angle of the twist being generated, but the multi axis machine centers are uuubbberrrr expense, but way cool.

Bottom line its just how its is unfortuneatly.
 
Other than looking really cool, they will cost you extra. The only other absolute is they will reduce the barrel's weight. I think that both the pros and cons to barrel fluting are exaggerated and subjective at best......just sayin'.

Paul
 
hard on cutters. The other way would be a multi axis machine center with the ability to tip the head to match the helix angle

Bingo! My machine is a Bridgeport clone. I tilt the head to match the angle.

I started a thread in 'smithing titled "Anyone Care" showing my setup and it's results. It's not easy getting the flutes to meet on both ends. An engineer might help.

I left the "hard on cutters" in your quote because I think Chad has those expensive multi axis machines. Bragging on not running coolant and 900 sfpm. Glad I'm not buying his inserts. I might be impressed if he can double spiral 8 flutes on one set but it still sounds expensive.

Just saying it can be done on a budget if you put your mind to it.
 
Bingo! My machine is a Bridgeport clone. I tilt the head to match the angle.

I started a thread in 'smithing titled "Anyone Care" showing my setup and it's results. It's not easy getting the flutes to meet on both ends. An engineer might help.

I left the "hard on cutters" in your quote because I think Chad has those expensive multi axis machines. Bragging on not running coolant and 900 sfpm. Glad I'm not buying his inserts. I might be impressed if he can double spiral 8 flutes on one set but it still sounds expensive.

Just saying it can be done on a budget if you put your mind to it.

I've used the same insert for close to 50 bolts and the last 8 barrels that I've done. Yes, the inserts are expensive, but if used the way they are supposed to, the mileage is quite good. FWIW that works out of a rough calculation of over 167 linear feet of machined feature.
 
Last edited:
if you are running it agressive enough that the rooster tail of chips is coming off blue-hot, i'm guessing the heat is going out in the chip, not building up in the part or insert. provided the insert is designed for this type of work, i'm guessing coolant isn't going to improve the life much, if at all.
 
FWIW I'm one of those former benchrest guys. I've spent the last 10 years flushing many of those myths out of my mind. I agree with Chad. I've been doing my own fluting for 20 years now with no issues. I flute full depth, one pass. Normally never more than .100 deep". If someone needs it deeper for weight reduction they should have used a smaller contour to start with. I've fluted down to a #2 6.5 barrel. No problems. The flutes weren't very deep but it did look good. It was a 5 lbs. 6.5-06 Imp. Nice rifle. If anyone has seen AI's fluting the last few years that's my work and my design.
 
There are instances when running dry is beneficial. It has to do with coatings and a little phenomenon called "thermal shock". In a nutshell its when the tool's cutting surface is rapidly heated and cooled. -a condition created by coolant! The actual cutting surface of any tool is quite narrow. Take a torch to a kitchen knife, what glows first? The body of the knife or its edge? Now rapidly heat/cool this tool and then convince yourself that the edge will last. Were talking about a temperature change of say 400F up to 1400F and back to 400F 5000+ times per minute.

In a nutshell it creates a condition where the cutting surface begins to fracture. TiAIN coating on carbide works best at 800*C (almost 1500*F). The idea is to keep it (the tool) hot while passing on the bulk of the heat generated during cutting to the chip(s).



FWIW: My new fluting fixture started as a 8.5" diameter X 15" long piece of mild steel. I turned it into a 7X5X15 block. According to my setup sheets slabbing ONE side of the round bar resulted in a linear travel of over 1900 inches. Meaning the tool cut 158' of material. Times 4 thats over 600' of cutting distance. ONE endmill did the entire job of slabbing the four sides of the piece. 50 IPM/5350RPM w/a .002"IPT chip load. That's 700SFM. DRY.

Just like our Kraut friends here are doing in material far bore abrasive/nasty than mild steel. The "hiss" is compressed air being shot at the tool to evacuate the chips. Notice the color of the chips piling up in the bottom right corner. They are blue. A light blue to be more specific. That puts them in the range of 600-700*F when they leave the parent material.

MA FORD High Speed Machining Of P20 Tool Steel - YouTube


COOLANT in conjunction with carbide tooling seems to work best with non ferrous materials like AL and various grades of stainless. It's because the material has a tendency to be gummy and wants to stick to the tool. The coolant acts like a can of PAM and prevents this. In my case I've found best life w/o it. Probably because the grade used in barrels puts the material in a heat treated state. it machines better because of the increased hardness. -as often the case with stainless steel.

17-4 can be a real biche sometimes. 17-4 solution annealed to H1150 condition machines beautifully because its much harder than the parent material.

It's a big world out there. . .
 
Last edited:
No coolant?

I don't care what you guys say. If coolant was of no benefit, they wouldn't run it in CNC machines. Lubricating qualities are as beneficial as temp reduction.

coolant isn't used for every job in every situation just because the machine is being driven by a computer.
 
Cool vid Chad. I've been educated a little on dry machining from research. Seems my shot from the hip was a little premature. I will try to justify it by saying my machine red lines at about 2600 rpm. (3750 max) High rpm's seem to be the key. If I were younger and gave a crap, I'd consider some formal machine schooling.

BTW, a V block on your angle plate might work better if you plan to cut opposing spirals. What cutter are you using?
 
That is a very cool video, I had no idea that they could cut that fast. It would be nice if there was a machining school close so I could learn how to run a mill and lathe.
 
No, a V block doesn't work better. This nuts been cracked and as is often the case, the solution was so simple I feel rather dumb for not thinking about it much, much sooner.

I know the feeling. I wish I'd bought my portable bandsaw 30 yrs ago. Zips right through a bbl breech or muzzle end in less than a minute.

Don't guess you are going to share your "solution" or what cutting tool you use to flute.
 
I know the feeling. I wish I'd bought my portable bandsaw 30 yrs ago. Zips right through a bbl breech or muzzle end in less than a minute.

Don't guess you are going to share your "solution" or what cutting tool you use to flute.

With all due respect...if you can't rid of the little stutter-step at the end of the flutes then who cares what tool is used as the flutes like like crap.
 
If it wasnt such a pain to take my barrel off, id do it. wish i did when i got it. the barrel alone weighs 8 lbs.
 
With all due respect...if you can't rid of the little stutter-step at the end of the flutes then who cares what tool is used as the flutes like like crap.

as far as I see the solution to what you dislike is an adjustment of the head angle, or introduce a way to angle the piece. with that said, I disagree with the assertion that it looks like crap.
 
I have found that I can remove more weight but chopping and inch of barrel length off than by fluting , their is some velocity loss but in most cases its marginal and it actually makes the barrel "stiffer". The last couple 308's I've built I have stayed at 18-20" length with a heavier diameter , which allows me to run a suppressor with less POI change from can on to can off.
 
as far as I see the solution to what you dislike is an adjustment of the head angle, or introduce a way to angle the piece. with that said, I disagree with the assertion that it looks like crap.

I'm with scout on this one. Tilting the head would fix it as you say. That's what I do. Another option is to cut an opposing flute in the opposite direction. Trouble is getting them to meet. Should be easy with a cnc machine.
 
I disagree with the assertion that it looks like crap.

Take a look at Kampfeld Customs or any of the others who properly spiral flute barrels. Relatively speaking, a flute with that error looks hacked.