having trouble at and past 1000 yards, please help

[TexAg07]

I posted this on the ELR 1000 but limited response. If I am maxing out my rifle I want to know or if I need better ammo.....or be a better shooter. I am wanting to go a mile.

So, I think I am going to have to start reloading. I really want to and now I think it is my next step. I can group a 3" easy at 500 and 7ish" at a 1000 but after that they are all over the place. Even at 1000 you have to be a good shot and know your poi. I shoot a rem 700 5R 308 with leupold 6.5-20 glass. I am shooting 175 Southwest BTHP and can drive nails at 500 with them. Am I out of gun or out of ballistics? Is it barrel, ammo, shooter....hehe.....? I have only been shooting LR for about 8 months now but been a shooter my whole life.

24" barrel, hogue stock, badger rails and mounts. Also I can hit a 10"x16" with 168 A-Max 8 of 10 at 1000 so......?

 

[JB02]

Have you chrono'd your rounds and verified your dope? That may reveal some of the problem.

Perhaps you can try 155s. You'll fight the wind more but will have an easier time getting past 1000 yds.

Another option is to get some 175s or 178s and (CAREFULLY!) load them with some stout charges of PP 2000-MR.

 

[Snoball]

I would think your elevation is going to have a decent effect at this distance as well. Depending on where you are shooting, and how fast you are shooting, that round is going to start to be getting close to trans-sonic speed. I know with my particular 308 load, 1200 is about the furthest I could deem reasonable. Any further than 1000-1400 (depending upon your data) I think you would be wise to invest in a different caliber. Oh, and if your not reloading you might want to take that trade up for the accuracy and distance you are looking for.

 

[gstaylorg]

Run your MVs for the different loads and atmospheric conditions through the JBM Ballistics calculator (or other similar ballistic calculator). Look closely at the outputs, particularly the mach #. I suspect you'll find your load is trans-sonic, or even possibly sub-sonic depending on your initial muzzle velocity. I've been shooting 1000 yd F-T/R matches for some time and I can tell you that if you can consistently hold 7" groups at 1000 yd with a .308, you would do extremely well in these comps.

Properly loaded .308 rounds can definitely travel farther than 1000 yd, particularly out of a 30" or longer barrel that generates muzzle velocities 2750-2800 fps for 185 gr projectiles and well over 3000 fps for 155s. However, they will start to go trans-sonic fairly soon after that. If you're using a projectile that doesn't handle trans-sonic well, it's not going to fly well when it reaches those speeds. Shooting a .308 at 1000 yd is simply challenging, no way around it.

Across the pond, they often compete with .308s out to 1200 yd, so the round can definitely do it, but again, it helps to have a really long barrel and high BC projectile going as fast as possible. Obviously, when you're pushing up against the inherent limitations of the load, other factors such as wind and shooter error become greatly magnified.

 

[Layton]

With a 175g OTM at 2700fps I show you going trans-sonic at 1130 yards. You may not be pushing that fast with a 24" barrel.

L

 

[TexAg07]

Ok, I ran 175 Southwest at 2700ish through the chrono and the 168 AMAX were 2735ish out of the barrel. The day of the pic was 98 degrees and 10 mph wind west to east, shooting north to south over a canyon. I know to keep barrel cool and ammo cool and was trying to not shoot to fast and heat the barrel up to much. How much pressure can a stock 700 bolt take? Do I need to upgrade to surgeon or upgrade caliber? I dont want to damaged the breach......and kill myself.

 

[JB02]

Ok, I ran 175 Southwest at 2700ish through the chrono and the 168 AMAX were 2735ish out of the barrel. The day of the pic was 98 degrees and 10 mph wind west to east, shooting north to south over a canyon. I know to keep barrel cool and ammo cool and was trying to not shoot to fast and heat the barrel up to much. How much pressure can a stock 700 bolt take? Do I need to upgrade to surgeon or upgrade caliber? I dont want to damaged the breach......and kill myself.

You don't need a Surgeon or a new caliber. It's the load. I did a quick JBM calc and it looks like you are just barely supersonic at 1000 yds. Take a look at how much drop and drift you're encountering around 1000 yds:



Are you able to spot your POIs? That might give some clue on your dope.

Using the weather conditions and your location in KS, I ran some numbers. Looks like you would be well served switching to 155s, and 2950 fps is definitely doable.

 

[rancilio]

You might consider leaving the beer at home for a session or two and see if that helps accuracy. If that doesn't work, you might as well go back to the bottle.

 

[TexAg07]

I wasnt drinking at that time, something I had to show a Point of Reference. Yes, I can see my POI, thats how I build my dope sheets accordingly to POA vs POI. I guess my wind-calls......gaining more and more experience on that. I dont know, I am new to this and dont have formal training other than a buddy who was a marine sniper, he taught me how to load the bipod and hold the rifle. Other than that, alot of rounds down range.

With 168, I raised 40.5 MOA and doing a 2.2 mil hold on the left. With the 175, 37.75 MOA raise and same hold on wind. Rifle Zeroed at 100.

155 off Lapua Balistics running though my "dope calculator" says a 30.28 MOA raise. That sound right? Does the heat have a greater effect on 155?

 

[Beluebow]

Once you go past 1200yrds its a whole new ball game.Unlike shooting to a grand.

 

[TexAg07]

I think I just need more rounds down range and different rounds. I am making sure I am not wasting my time and that my gun can do it.

 

[JB02]

I think I just need more rounds down range and different rounds. I am making sure I am not wasting my time and that my gun can do it.

Your gun can do it. Shooting in the wind takes practice. I think switching to 155s would really help, especially if you can find an accurate load ~ 3000 fps.

 

[MontanaMarine]

If you really want to take the 308 to it's furthest potential, you will have to handload your ammo. I'd suggest loading some 208gr AMax, 210 Berger, or 215 Berger over RL17, loaded long to be about .015 off the lands.


I'm loading moly'd 208 AMax over 49.0gr RL17 at 3.08" OAL. That load gets 2620 fps from my 22" 308, Rem 700 Varmint bbl. I've had good results on steel out to 1500 yards, at elevations of 2900-4500 feet.

Shooting a 308 to a mile is possible, and I do it now and then, but it's not something one can take too seriously.

 

[Dick D]

Another thing you will need for 1000 yd and longer shooting is a chrono to check your extreme spread with. Most ballistic programs will show you that with any mid-weight 30 caliber bullet about 10 fps difference at the muzzle is about 1.7" to 2.0" difference in drop at 1000 yds. Shoot a 10 shot string across the chrono and if your extreme spread (fastest to slowest round) is 50 fps then that is about 10" of vertical dispersion in the ammo itself at that range.
You need to hand load some very good ammo with about 20 FPS or less extreme spread for shooting these distances.

 

[Sharpsman]

I can shoot shotgun slugs to 800 yards....but my target needs to be a barn!!

 

[Sako man]

Have you chrono'd your rounds and verified your dope? That may reveal some of the problem.

Perhaps you can try 155s. You'll fight the wind more but will have an easier time getting past 1000 yds.

Another option is to get some 175s or 178s and (CAREFULLY!) load them with some stout charges of PP 2000-MR.

Sorry but incorrect, he is not going to be able to get 155s any where near 1100 yards or past that, they will spin out of control once hitting sub sonic from a 24" 5r. One of the only ways to get a .308 out to a mile or even past 1100 is by using 175 grain SMKs or heavier. Basically you need a bullet that will stay stable when going transsonic. There is an invisible wall they hit between sonic and trans, this barrier will make lighter bullets de stabilize. This is even true with the high BC 155 scenar going very fast. Look into 175 smks or better 175 Berger tactical which are designed for extended distances.

Making 500 yard shots is cake compared to the exponential problems one faces with atmospheric issues that appear close to or past 1000 yards. A .308 can make it one mile, this have been proven. It's also been proven it can kill at one mile. That said its not an ideal caliber for that distance.

If shooting a mile is your goal then maybe look into pushing 7mm or better .338, trust me I have been thinking about the same thing.

 

[Sako man]

If you really want to take the 308 to it's furthest potential, you will have to handload your ammo. I'd suggest loading some 208gr AMax, 210 Berger, or 215 Berger over RL17, loaded long to be about .015 off the lands.


I'm loading moly'd 208 AMax over 49.0gr RL17 at 3.08" OAL. That load gets 2620 fps from my 22" 308, Rem 700 Varmint bbl. I've had good results on steel out to 1500 yards, at elevations of 2900-4500 feet.

Shooting a 308 to a mile is possible, and I do it now and then, but it's not something one can take too seriously.

I would say this is pretty accurate, heavy bullets will excel at distance. That said RL at 49 grains with a 208 grain bullet will create a lot of pressure so don't use that formula as an example without a work up. Im sure those 208s are crunching into powder when seated, lol.

 

[leadbullet]

rebarrel to 260 if you want to go past 1000yds, mine hits easily at 1250yds, for the 1 mile mark you may want something with more powder capacity in the order of a 300 win mag at minimum and a 338 of some kind preferrably. Gravity is a bitch.

 

[VKC]

At those distances it comes down to wind calls. Get a friend to stand down range with a radio and a kestrel. Look at him at 1000 yds through a spotting scope and call the effective wind to him. Have him calculate it out with his kestrel and keep doing that until you can read within +/- 1mph.

 

[Sako man]

Man thats a great idea. So simple it hurts.

 

[sib1948]

Shooting consistently to 1200 or more easier and less time consuming to pick a different caliber. I would suggest a 338. You'll love it but expensive, but not too bad, since you reload!

 

[JB02]

Sorry but incorrect, he is not going to be able to get 155s any where near 1100 yards or past that, they will spin out of control once hitting sub sonic from a 24" 5r.

Whatever. Run the numbers yourself. The 155s stay supersonic out to 1200 yds:



Trying a new bullet is much easier than blowing a bunch more money on a new rifle or caliber. I concede that a big magnum shooting high BC bullets is more capable at 1000+ yds, but OP wants to hit 1000 yds with his rifle. You're basically telling him to sell his Mustang GT and buy a Ferrari.

To each his own.

As far as going with 208s, good luck finding any. 155s are available now. Your rifle's 11.25 twist may not like those really heavy bullets that are really designed for 30 cal magnums. That said, [MENTION=232]MontanaMarine[/MENTION] has a pretty good load, but it seems a little on the hot side. Be sure to work up to it. If you're able to duplicate his results, you'll have pretty good performance against the wind. The 155s still have the least amount of drop:

 

[islandermyk]

1400 yards is my limit with my .308
I tried a mile in two different sessions/days... Never did hit, but I can see that my hits were between 2 to 4 feet away just right of the target.. never did come any closer. Did (I think) 12 or 14 shots those days before calling it quits. This was attempted during my first year of LR stuff... I may have to try this again soon
My scope (S&B PMII 5-25 H37) was maxed out and I was holding over another 6 or 8 mils for elevation. Windage was jumping around and between 1 and 3 full mils.... and as far as 4 mils, but I think I pulled that one.
I was shooting 175gr SMK HPBT's 43.7 gr of Varget, CCI Magnum Primers.
I've yet tried shooting that far again with my new loads, but I have no problem hitting 1138 yards with'em.
New load was was brought down to 43.0 gr of Varget. Getting an average of 2361 fps out of my rifle.

Here's the target 18"x12" that I didn't hit, lol!


Here's behind the target. That black spot you see in the horizon is my buddy's jeep a mile away.

 

[islandermyk]

.. another thing..

Paint your target florescent/hunter orange! I remember having a bitch of a time trying to find the fricken target, hahahahaha!

 

[MontanaMarine]

I would say this is pretty accurate, heavy bullets will excel at distance. That said RL at 49 grains with a 208 grain bullet will create a lot of pressure so don't use that formula as an example without a work up. Im sure those 208s are crunching into powder when seated, lol.

With my OAL at 3.08", there is just light compression at 49.0gr. QuickLoad says my load density is 102%.

Yeah, don't start at 49.0gr....work up. 49.0gr is working in my rifle but they are all a little different. I'm shooting moly'd bullets in a long Remington factory throat, and roomy factory chamber, and using Win brass.

 

[MontanaMarine]

BTW, Quicktarget predicts my 208 AMax at 2620 fps will retain 1200 fps at 1600 yards. That's at 4500' el, and using a BC of .630 G1, which I believe is Litz' estimate of actual BC for the 208 Amax.

 

[Sako man]

Whatever. Run the numbers yourself. The 155s stay supersonic out to 1200 yds:

View attachment 13101



View attachment 13104View attachment 13102

155 whats? What B.C. Scenars? Elaborate please. Now if they are scenars and they do stay supersonic till 1200, which is quite possible, they are not going to make it a mile. All your chart half way proves is that a 155 something or others (SMK?) goes till 1200. This negates the fact that once they hit the barrier between sonic and not they go bananas, and then good luck hitting anything at past that range let alone another five hundred yards. Try it as I have and you will see.

Lastly going to something like .260 which will get him closer to a mile would only be an easy upgrade in barrel, so kinda like putting a super charger on the mustang. Not quite like upgrading to a 430 Sucderia.

 

[Sako man]

BTW, Quicktarget predicts my 208 AMax at 2620 fps will retain 1200 fps at 1600 yards. That's at 4500' el, and using a BC of .630 G1, which I believe is Litz' estimate of actual BC for the 208 Amax.

I have dumped all my prior data and replaced with Litz, much more accurate results now. Interesting, but Lapua was advertising a much higher BC for their 155s, think they were saying 510? But if you work backwards with an accurate chrono you will find they are actually in the 490s.

 

[JB02]

155 whats? What B.C. Scenars? Elaborate please. Now if they are scenars and they do stay supersonic till 1200, which is quite possible, they are not going to make it a mile. All your chart half way proves is that a 155 something or others (SMK?) goes till 1200. This negates the fact that once they hit the barrier between sonic and not they go bananas, and then good luck hitting anything at past that range let alone another five hundred yards. Try it as I have and you will see.

So thanks for runny the numbers and proving my point. 1200 yards is not a mile, as you know.

I wasn't trying to prove your point. There's no way you're going to get to a mile with a 308 with any sort of accuracy or precision. Did you see any of my numbers going out to 2000 yds? They all stop at 1200 yds because that's pretty much the maximum effective range. The OP was shooting 1000 yds with 168s and 175s and having trouble there. My advice to him is that there are better bullets available to get him 1000-1200 yds. If he wants to go beyond 1200 with any sort of authority, he needs a magnum.

And of course my curves use the 155 Scenars (best possible solution on paper), and all the numbers are crunched using the Litz model. Litz himself has compared multiple 155s (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Lapua_Scenar.pdf), and although the Scenar has the highest BC, the others will do just fine given all other inherent variables in shooting.

208s will work too but are hard to find. He can get 155s now and go shooting.

 

[MontanaMarine]

I have dumped all my prior data and replaced with Litz, much more accurate results now. Interesting, but Lapua was advertising a much higher BC for their 155s, think they were saying 510? But if you work backwards with an accurate chrono you will find they are actually in the 490s.

I've shot a few hundred of the 155 Scenar, some out to a mile (88-90 moa at 4500ft el, from my 308Win/2800 fps, depending on the day). In my experience working the calcs backwards from chrono/el turret, the BC seems to be about .460. I read on one of these threads that Litz rates them at .465 in his book. So my calcs/experience seem pretty close to his.

When I first started with the 155 Scenar and a range card based on BC .508, I was always hitting low.

 

[Sako man]

I wasn't trying to prove your point. There's no way you're going to get to a mile with a 308 with any sort of accuracy or precision. Did you see any of my numbers going out to 2000 yds? They all stop at 1200 yds because that's pretty much the maximum effective range. The OP was shooting 1000 yds with 168s and 175s and having trouble there. My advice to him is that there are better bullets available to get him 1000-1200 yds. If he wants to go beyond 1200 with any sort of authority, he needs a magnum.

And of course my curves use the 155 Scenars (best possible solution on paper), and all the numbers are crunched using the Litz model. Litz himself has compared multiple 155s (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Lapua_Scenar.pdf), and although the Scenar has the highest BC, the others will do just fine given all other inherent variables in shooting.

208s will work too but are hard to find. He can get 155s now and go shooting.

I see, thanks for your clarification.

 

[Sako man]

I've shot a few hundred of the 155 Scenar, some out to a mile (88-90 moa at 4500ft el, from my 308Win/2800 fps, depending on the day). In my experience working the calcs backwards from chrono/el turret, the BC seems to be about .460. I read on one of these threads that Litz rates them at .465 in his book. So my calcs/experience seem pretty close to his.

When I first started with the 155 Scenar and a range card based on BC .508, I was always hitting low.

OK, I was going from memory but yes I seem to remember 460s not 490s. If I look I'm in my Atrag I'm getting it will say .465