It doesn't look like there is enough real-estate at the 12 o'clock to mount a clip on NV setup, that would be a no-go for me. Other than that it looks great. Could the top rail be brought back, but still leave a gap for scope clearance. That way you could have a buis and a clipon.
- Thread starter A10XRIFLE
- Start date
George.
Looks real nice, and clean.
I shoot with either an eotech or Acog. In front of either of those is a PVS-24 and in front of that is a LDI CQBL-1 laser. It is a VERY affective combo for pigs, and if need be other things. The way that rail looks, it does not look like I could begin to do that. Even if the laser is on the side it does not look like an acog and PVS-24 will fit on top.
That would be a limiting factor for me.
Just my thoughts.
Looks real nice, and clean.
I shoot with either an eotech or Acog. In front of either of those is a PVS-24 and in front of that is a LDI CQBL-1 laser. It is a VERY affective combo for pigs, and if need be other things. The way that rail looks, it does not look like I could begin to do that. Even if the laser is on the side it does not look like an acog and PVS-24 will fit on top.
That would be a limiting factor for me.
Just my thoughts.
People keep bringing up the lack of rail at 12 o'clock. That concern has already been answered.
Sac Sheriff has GAP10/NF combos for their snipers... I believe they were running IR lasers on their side rails.
Anyways it's all about the options.
I think fully key moded forearms look like shit... Would just end up spending more money to cover it up.
I like the looks if the proto design and it would serve my application ... But a lot of potential customers seem to want keymods and ability to customize
Anyways it's all about the options.
I think fully key moded forearms look like shit... Would just end up spending more money to cover it up.
I like the looks if the proto design and it would serve my application ... But a lot of potential customers seem to want keymods and ability to customize
I have to say keyed slots would be much better. Maybe i'm wrong in thinking that it would be an easy addition. I think they look great so beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Other then that I think slots that line up with gas block adjustments would be something to take into consideration, on many rails access to them is not always easy.
I have a rifle on order scheduled for delivery next year. I would like a built in 20 moa cant. I would like a QD sling point built into the rail on both sides close to the receiver and out towards the end of the rail. I am all about function but don't quite understand the advantage of the vertical cuts at the top with the horizontal cuts on the lower half of the rail. If there are functional advantages to this look over other rail designs please discuss. I would like to see a design with a rounded bottom and flattened sides allowing the shooter to ground the rifle against a vertical frame when shooting off hand. I have quad rails and round hand guards. They each have their advantages and disadvantages. A new design should incorporate the advantages and not the disadvantages. Will the bottom rail section accommodate a Picatinny style tripod mount?
Just because this would give the GAP a unique look doesn't mean the look would be better. Often unique looks are unique because they are unattractive. FWIW, I think the design is ugly with no discussed functional advantages. I would rather see an off the shelf rail which would provide more functionality than my perception this design provides.
Just because this would give the GAP a unique look doesn't mean the look would be better. Often unique looks are unique because they are unattractive. FWIW, I think the design is ugly with no discussed functional advantages. I would rather see an off the shelf rail which would provide more functionality than my perception this design provides.
George i think the Keymod looks like crap please don't do that . the 3 things i see with the design so far that i am not digging is the bottom rail should match the top to make it look balanced if you don't go full rail. I also think there should be a option to mount a rail to make the top a full length . I use a Dbal D2 and put it in the front behind my flip up sight. I know people tend to set up different but i also think the look of a full rail has more appeal. I just picked up a Geissele MK1 rail and really like that design where you can move the pic rails where you want them on the side or bottom and it has a full top rail. It keeps that smooth feeling on the sides and still has options to move kit where needed. I also agree it needs to have holes cut to allow for QD sling . As far as the cut pattern besides just the look of the design i can't input because i know it has a purpose and i don't know that side of it . I look forward to seeing how this works out as i have spoken with you on Facebook about getting a New Gap 10 from you soon and am Excited to see how this new rifle turns out ! I also like yourself look forward to you guys having your own design like you were saying . I know whatever you end up going with will be Bad Ass .
Jason
Jason
All that's important to me is that its confirmed to be held to .0000001. I'm not willing to sacrifice perfection in my shooting abilities by a substandard part! 
JK....Looks good. I'll take 3 when they're ready. When will you have one for me to fondle?
JK....Looks good. I'll take 3 when they're ready. When will you have one for me to fondle?
ANPVS 24, 27, 25 and 3 thermals that I could get my hands on all fit the front its plenty long.
I shoot the same setup Acog on back PVS 24 in front, works perfect!! I can clip on and off the 24 and put on a thermal. the place on the middle is where a normal scope bell and tube would sit its un nessesary real estate
With a Front BUIS attached at the same time?
Ok cool, thanks for taking the time to address that. Now I'm just being a pain in the ass, but did you try them with multiple scopes? Which optics worked for you?
Trigicon ACOG, 5.5, Busnell HDMR, Nightforce. March 1-8 im quite sure they will all work.
Let me be real blunt. BUIS is not a consideration at all for me the concept is borderline insane. Scopes, with Red Dot Co-alligned, BUIS Etc. This is a precision rifle not a entry weapon. I have yet in now 25 years of Miliraty and LE experience ever heard of anyone having to strip a scope that went down and go to a BUIS system to finish an op.
Or better yet Imagine being in a gunfight or in a doorway and trying to implement a switch to backup irons.
In almost 20 years of competition shooting the only scopes I ever saw go down were a shift in impact or a knob freeze. in both these cases the reticle can be used in a hold off manner to get the job done. Hell at RO a guy sheered a windage knob off we duct taped the knob back on and he finished with his reticle using holdoffs.
Im sure someone will say that BUIS look cool. or they use them all the time. But for this Weapon System/Precision Rifle/Target rifle its a non issue to me. Id venture to make a heavy wager that 95% of the guys with BUIS on their rifles have never even zeroed them.
Open question to all the US Army Snipers. Other than in Sniper school when they made you guys put them on how many of you guys ever had to switch to irons during an actual op on your M-24 SWS.
Did I tell you guys how much I like the word BUIS???
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I would have to agree about flip ups-but I have the Dueck offset sights, zeroed at 50, and use them all the time. They are just plain quicker for anything inside of 100 for me, especially on a running target. But the rail you have offered above would work fine for my setup. I will still stand by my opinion that the side rails would not be used by 95% of the owners except to mount a QD adapter. Somebody should make a rail segment that could clip on a QD hole and maybe index another hole with a pin for stability. Tool-free segment install I say...but I would just mount a sling.
That said I will still buy one even with the stubby little rails up there
. They are just plain quicker for anything inside of 100 for me, especially on a running target. But the rail you have offered above would work fine for my setup. I will still stand by my opinion that the side rails would not be used by 95% of the owners except to mount a QD adapter. Somebody should make a rail segment that could clip on a QD hole and maybe index another hole with a pin for stability. Tool-free segment install I say...but I would just mount a sling.That said I will still buy one even with the stubby little rails up there
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I would have to agree about flip ups-but I have the Dueck offset sights, zeroed at 50, and use them all the time
That said I will still buy one even with the stubby little rails up there
micro red dots and offset mounts are ideal for 3 gun stuff but they are mounted for use with the scope in place.
A couple changes that have already been made: Bottom pic rail extended to 5 slots, QD mounts behind rails at 3,6,9 oclock.
There will be no Key Mod so quit asking. Top rail is staying the same.
Should have a Picture of the new drawing soon.
Every time I hear the word BUIS and Key mod I think of this picture. Its like a re-occurring nightmare.
Every time I hear the word BUIS and Key mod I think of this picture. Its like a re-occurring nightmare.
LOL......now thats funny.
On this I agree 100%. I would further state this justifies incorporating the 20MOA cant.
Sounds like you are addressing the QD's for slings. and increasing the front bottom rail for bipod attachment.
All good.
I would still like you to consider flattening the sides and changing the horizontal cuts ( I assume they are cuts, or are they just indentations?) below the vertical cuts. Or explain the advantage. I sure cant see the advantage from a manufacturing cost or from an operational standpoint.
It seems like there is a lot of concern that the top rail segment is too short for a clip on NV or thermal sight. My feeling is that the concerns comes from the perceived distance between the scope bell and the NV optic. I "think" it would go a long way to quell these fears if one could provide actual photos of a real rifle with a representative scope and clip on NV optic(s). From what has been posted, it seems that there are several of these sights available for a photo op. It also appears that everyone has their own ideas about what a "perfect" rail system entails. Unfortunately, these opinions are like all other opinions...
By the way, the rifle posted does not have a backup bipod mounted at the 9'o clock position. Obvious fail!!!
By the way, the rifle posted does not have a backup bipod mounted at the 9'o clock position. Obvious fail!!!
I'll be blunt too. The piece closest to my fingers removed my aimpoint from my weapon. While its not a precision rifle, if I had been carrying my M24 it would have done the same. Unfortunatly, they put me on a streatcher so I could provide security incase of an attack from hadji paratroopers. I didn't see any, but if I had, you bet your ass I would have used my Buis which was already deployed. Airborne ops and fast roping can both take their toll on optics, as can falling through the roof of a building during a rooftop foot pursuit. IED's fit in there somewhere.
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I'll be blunt too. The piece closest to my fingers removed my aimpoint from my weapon. While its not a precision rifle, if I had been carrying my M24 it would have done the same. Unfortunatly, they put me on a streatcher so I could provide security incase of an attack from hadji paratroopers. I didn't see any, but if I had, you bet your ass I would have used my Buis which was already deployed. Airborne ops and fast roping can both take their toll on optics, as can falling through the roof of a building during a rooftop foot pursuit. IED's fit in there somewhere.
God Bless you man!
Honest to God, no shit there I was, got off the bird in the middle of the night and my optic was gone. I still to this day have not figured out how it came off during the infil. So I guess that makes me that one guy, but having back up sights allowed me to stay in the fight. I agree it is rare ,but it does happen.
Again, a low incident event that I saw happen to another teams gun while deployed, elevation knob stopped working correctly so they ended up running irons until they could get a replacement.
Both of those incidents I mentioned cover a 20 and change year time span, so do not take it as a common occuring thing.
Don't take my comments as disagreeing with you on this, on the contrary, you have valid points. I agree that 95% of civilian people I've seen with iron sights probably haven't even zero'd them or ever use them after zeroing them if they did. However, you asked what people thought and wanted and you're getting feedback that, whether you agree with it or not, is what people want. So it boils down to build what you personally like or build what your customers want. One of the things I've found to be just about universal that I have heard from people who make any type of product is that customers typically ask for shit that they as mfgrs wouldn't put on it themselves or ask for uneccessary features/options that they will probably seldom use but still want. The trick is to find the happy medium of making something you are good with and that the customer base also likes. Is building a second version with the features you disagree with here an option that you can offer to those customers who want them?
Nope, you're number 2! I gotta ask, were you knee deep in hand grenade pins like I was?
George, as a customer of yours over the years, I'm confident the attention to detail that you and your crew put into your work will be more than satisfactory, and I think it's very cool that you have opened up the input into the new handguard to one of the main areas of your target market.
I'm with you on the TWS clip-on, space for the large objective bells, and disdain for the insane rail-mount trends. The few shooters that actually use TWS, Clip-on NVD's, and IR pointers are covered with the tasteful use of rail space already provided.
As to your question about iron sights, the only time I used anything other than optics on the M24 was during the first few days of a SOTIC MTT Course run for us by 1st SFG. We pulled the M3A's, attached the Palma sights, and focused on fundamentals/grouping exercises out to 400m with that configuration. This block of instruction used to be in the SOTIC POI, but is no longer there, according to what current SF Sniper Instructors have related to me. It would be interesting to hear from the guys who are using M110's what the marksmanship POI is like with that system.
Operationally, I can't think of an instance, even with the SPR's, where irons were used, and we had guys even doing controlled bursts on packs of dogs at night co-witnessing with the PVS-14's behind the Leupy MR/T's, suppressed. It wouldn't surprise me if someone has a freak horror story though. Edit: Looks likes some horror stories appeared above. I know of a few M24's that were abused in ways that people may find hard to believe: slipping out of a M-1950 WPNS case on a jump before they were using the modified cases, getting run over by a Bradley, and falling out of a Blackhawk. The one that fell from the M-1950 on a jump still had the same zero after the "owner" recovered it from the DZ on Fort Lewis, where it was buried almost buttplate deep in mud!
For the GAP-10, I know for me and the crowds I shoot with, I would never expect to see someone with a BUIS on a GAP-10, especially with the elevated rail height. It's a precision semi-auto that is meant to be complimented with a higher-end, quality optical sight to match the capabilities of a 1/2 MOA or better rifle system at extended distances, or precision fires for the LE Sharpshooter within common Special Response scenarios.
I have noticed that with heavier-barreled AR's, a lightweight, rigid rifle-length handguard goes a long way in balancing the system, as well as helping with handling. You have already added the QD slots, which would have been my only request. Thanks again for your excellent products and down-to-earth approach. I'll be playing with my .260 Rem AR you built for me this week out to 1200yds. It's boringly accurate.
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I'll be blunt too. The piece closest to my fingers removed my aimpoint from my weapon. While its not a precision rifle, if I had been carrying my M24 it would have done the same. Unfortunatly, they put me on a streatcher so I could provide security incase of an attack from hadji paratroopers. I didn't see any, but if I had, you bet your ass I would have used my Buis which was already deployed. Airborne ops and fast roping can both take their toll on optics, as can falling through the roof of a building during a rooftop foot pursuit. IED's fit in there somewhere.
Holy shit those are some big pieces of Frag. Hope you recovered well.
Im sure there are incidents like yours. But the real truth especially for 99.9 percent of the users of this platform will be for long range precision shooting. target shooting, Hunting. Etc. And BUIS will not be useful and in almost all cases a waste. I want this guard to be perfect for the majority of users. There are 2 models of guards that Hogan currently makes that have full rails on top and Key mod so if someone has to have that its available already.
Roger that, I agree that even in LE buis' will not get deployed. Mil use is rough on gear and I like backup options, but they could use another rail as you mentioned.
Thanks for the well wishes! It's hard to recover when the VA fucks up every other surgery you have. I still have internal bleeding fro a surgery on June 17th! However, I can't complain, I'm a professional stay at home dad, with three daughters. I can't say I would trade that for perfect health any day. I'm also not a black bracelet on a buddy's wrist! Life is good, and they make stuff to ease pain!
Thanks for the well wishes! It's hard to recover when the VA fucks up every other surgery you have. I still have internal bleeding fro a surgery on June 17th! However, I can't complain, I'm a professional stay at home dad, with three daughters. I can't say I would trade that for perfect health any day. I'm also not a black bracelet on a buddy's wrist! Life is good, and they make stuff to ease pain!
Yep, the old saying "One is none and two is one" has saved more than one persons life on many occassions.
I'll be blunt too. The piece closest to my fingers removed my aimpoint from my weapon. While its not a precision rifle, if I had been carrying my M24 it would have done the same. Unfortunatly, they put me on a streatcher so I could provide security incase of an attack from hadji paratroopers. I didn't see any, but if I had, you bet your ass I would have used my Buis which was already deployed. Airborne ops and fast roping can both take their toll on optics, as can falling through the roof of a building during a rooftop foot pursuit. IED's fit in there somewhere.
Did Aimpoint warranty that? Kidding, thanks for your service man!
Do we know what the difference in weight will be between old and new?
Then why even ask for input? The current design/rendering looks like shit ....Like most of POF's products.
There is a reason the market is moving towards, lightweight, modular systems.
You are limiting your market by this current design. Run a full length top rail. If people want to run higher OBJ , then they can use a higher mount or riser. That is going to have the same bore axis as your current one, without forcing people to run the bore that high.
You should just use the SR-25 URX 4 and be done with it. Save the weight and let people add what they want. Everyone wins.
Every time I hear the word BUIS and Key mod I think of this picture. Its like a re-occurring nightmare.
Every time I hear companies who are resistant to change/market demands, I think of A.R.M.S. and how they threw their 90% market share away by being stubborn fools.
EDIT: Set it up so it can run 45* offsets. Something like the KAC Micros or Surefire/Dueck Defense. This way if they need to engage at less than 100 yards, they arent looking through a straw, and this saves weight,money,batteries and real estate compared to a T1 offset.
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I like my offset irons for two reasons (offset irons or red dot IMO = 1x type stuff). My LMT MWS might not be totally on par with a GAP-10, but it would be one hell of a close 2nd in terms of precision based AR-10's.
1.) they are just fun to use once in a while rather than going for bug hole groups all the time....
2.) needed for deer hunting in my tree stand for that possible deer running past my stand = main reason.
1.) they are just fun to use once in a while rather than going for bug hole groups all the time....
2.) needed for deer hunting in my tree stand for that possible deer running past my stand = main reason.
With that availability I withdraw my earlier suggestion of KeyMod. I honestly don't keep up with Hogan's offerings so I wasn't aware of what was out there and available. Gotta love custom shops!
After my own bolt gun run finishes settling down I'll be looking for a GAP-10 offering next year. Thanks George.
My GAP10 has the old style handguard and the only thing I really wanted to see on it was built in QD attachments and a slightly longer forward 6 o'clock rail section-- both of which sound like they're addressed in the latest design.
One concern I haven't heard about is cheekweld if a full length upper rail is used; because the Hogan handguard design slides over and adds additional height to the rail already on top of the receiver I've found that even with a 1.18" high scope mount (which puts a 56mm objective nearly touching the relieved portion of the current rail) I have the cheekrest on the PRS stock nearly maxed out for height to get a solid cheekweld.
If the top rail was continuous that would require an even higher scope mount and I would run out of cheekrest adjustment on the PRS.
If the Hogan handguard rail was at the same height as the rail on the receiver itself (not an option given the extrusion profile and current method of attachment) then a full length rail would be OK.
Sounds like the full length rail / keymod guys are covered by some of Hogan's other offerings.
One concern I haven't heard about is cheekweld if a full length upper rail is used; because the Hogan handguard design slides over and adds additional height to the rail already on top of the receiver I've found that even with a 1.18" high scope mount (which puts a 56mm objective nearly touching the relieved portion of the current rail) I have the cheekrest on the PRS stock nearly maxed out for height to get a solid cheekweld.
If the top rail was continuous that would require an even higher scope mount and I would run out of cheekrest adjustment on the PRS.
If the Hogan handguard rail was at the same height as the rail on the receiver itself (not an option given the extrusion profile and current method of attachment) then a full length rail would be OK.
Sounds like the full length rail / keymod guys are covered by some of Hogan's other offerings.
Current Design with mods, longer 6 o'clock rail with QD MOUNTS AT 3,6,9 AND ADDED large Diamond checkering. The drawing is a concept and the guard will look a lot different then the drawing.
another view
I mentioned having the rail 20moa in a previous post ... Is it possible to mount a standard ring setup with scope with the upper cutout provided or is a unimount only way to do it due to height restrictions ?
Textures look good, but I think people asking for them are think cqb instead of distance engagements... Flexability is a good thing though... Might work well off a pack or barricade depending how aggressive they are...
QD sling mounts are nice ... Save a lil money and weight not putting pict QD mounts on the rails.
- thanks for allowing us to provide input
Textures look good, but I think people asking for them are think cqb instead of distance engagements... Flexability is a good thing though... Might work well off a pack or barricade depending how aggressive they are...
QD sling mounts are nice ... Save a lil money and weight not putting pict QD mounts on the rails.
- thanks for allowing us to provide input
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Looks pretty slick. One thing I would tweak is the edges on the rear surfaces of the material where the QD sockets are. When I rapidly get into a standing supported barricade position, driving the support hand forward, I prefer to have minimal "catch-me, spank me" edges, especially ones that are at 90 degrees. If you rounded out the tail-end of the QD socket base material, that would help prevent dings and gouges on the shooter's hands. I also find this an issue when slinging-up, so I look for the lowest-profile mounting solutions for my QD swivels, with minimum protrusion into the range of motion and support hand interface with the blaster.
I also like the textured grip surface on the bottom of the handguard.
I also like the textured grip surface on the bottom of the handguard.
I like it, even though my build will probably have the old one, I'd be down w/ that one. Good job George!
Excellent idea on texturing! That just makes sense.
Looks great! I'll be happy to test it for you on my Feb order
+1 on ^^^^^ this.
I like it. Also down with adaptation to a February '13 order!
Will the top work with standard rings, and not have to be pushed further forward than it can accommodate? Having to buy a riser / riser/forward rail, sucks. If I could just drop a scope from another rifle on it and snuggle up behind it, zero, and go to work would be nice.
I like it! Would still like an optional top rail filler that you can screw on. Very nice with the QD holes!
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