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Suppressors Too Late For a Trust Owned Suppressor?

bronco_buster

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 27, 2008
217
1
OH
So here's the million dollar question...Did I just miss the boat on ever owning a suppressor? My plan was a trust given the CLEO requirement. I actually have some documents arriving this week to begin the trust creation. I don't want to sink $500 in attorney fees and create my revocable trust...and then not be able to get through the rest of the process.

So do I create a trust as quickly as possible, pay for a few suppressors, and submit my forms now...or wait and see how it plays out?

I've heard that people are using the electronic forms and getting approved in several weeks...is this possible?

Thanks.
 
It's worth it to do it right the first time... You didn't miss anything - you're just going to need to submit prints/photos of those listed in the trust should this nonsense move forward. Hopefully, it just gets put on the back-burner...
 
No people are not using electronic forms and getting approved in weeks. I *think* for dealer to dealer it sped things up but not 100% sure. It also might speed up the first portion (check cashed) but i have not heard of anyone getting them faster.

As for the trusts....as of right now nothing has actually changed. It will still be awhile before things truly kick into action. And even then theres a *decent* chance (IMO) that any submitted paperwork will be grandfathered in. Last i heard the ATF has to open the change up to a public comment time frame before they can even kick it into effect. And for it to go into effect will take some time as well since paperwork would need to be redone and reformatted.

So (IMO again) for the time being the normal trust route is still a good option. But i wouldnt wait much longer.
 
ATF change has to have congress approve it. You know how that will go.
 
Executive action means it doesnt have to go through congress, I believe. May just have the time to finalize the law before having to submit prints.
 
ATF change has to have congress approve it. You know how that will go.

Incorrect. This is a "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" and it's an administrative act by the BATFE that does NOT require Congressional approval. BATFE already has wide latitude to make rules to implement the NFA and this does not make any fundamental changes in the eyes of the administration. It's a "housekeeping" rule meant to (in the BATFE's opinion) bring trusts and corporations into better compliance with existing law by requiring anyone who has legal authority over the disposition of an NFA item to undergo the enhanced BATFE background check as well as an amendment to the CLEO signoff that they SAY will remove one obstacle to private applications, which is the objection of many CLEO to the language of the sign off they use now. The BATFE says in it's NPRM that their intent is NOT to eliminate the CLEO signoff but to make it applicable to trusts and corporations because (they say) they have seen two or three instances of trusts or corporations who have felons or other disqualified persons as officers or trustees, so they want to "close the loophole" due to the massive increase of the use of trusts so they can be sure that disqualified persons don't have access to NFA items.

Of course the stupid thing about this argument is that it's already illegal for a convicted felon or other disqualified person to possess so much as a single round of ammunition, and the issuance of an NFA tax stamp does NOTHING to change that. Moreover, a trust or corporation that allows felons to access ANY firearm, NFA or otherwise, is violating the law already and the officers can be prosecuted.

The BATFE is making a determination that it need to accurately identify the "responsible person or persons" who have control of and access to NFA items, which is (given that the NFA exists to begin with) a perfectly reasonable (in their eyes) upgrade to the rules to cover an emerging threat that they perceive. They don't HAVE to do this because, as I said, it's already illegal for a felon to even touch an NFA item or any other firearm, NFA tax stamp or not. But they are jumping on the issue as part of Obama's anti-gun agenda because they can do this administratively and WITHOUT Congressional approval. This is the Progressive agenda. If you don't understand Progressivism, I suggest you immediately get a copy of Ronald Pestritto's "Woodrow Wilson and the roots of modern liberalism" and his other book "American Progressivism" right now and discover what the Progressive plan for America is and has been for the last 100 years.

While the rationale for identifying and background-checking everyone who might have control over an NFA item is hardly objectively unreasonable, the real intent of the BATFE is to continue and advance the impeding of the issuance of NFA tax stamps by tweaking the NFA rules in ways that make it harder (but not impossible for everyone) to get the required approvals. The change to the CLEO signoff while ostensibly "liberalizing" it actually makes it harder because it sweeps trusts and corporations within the ambit of the detailed fingerprint/photograph background check and adds a SIGNIFICANT economic burden to everyone, particularly corporations and trusts, which must go through the paperwork EVERY TIME they change a trustee or corporate officer who is defined as a "responsible person."

They are also COUNTING on the unwillingness of CLEO hostile to the idea of NFA items to even sign off on the new language. The very idea of the CLEO sign off originated in 1934, when there were NO COMPUTERS and no massive federal or state criminal record systems and so it made perfect sense (to them) that the local CLEO would be able to check his files to make sure it wasn't John Dillinger or some other mob boss applying for a machine gun stamp. It was DELIBERATELY worded so as to put some liability on the CLEO if he FALSIFIED the approval form because he was corrupt.

The BATFE ADMITS in its NPRM that the CLEO signoff is an anachronism, but it wants to expand it anyway, ostensibly because there are some states and some criminal records systems that are not inputting "adequate" information into the NCIC or other federal databases. Of course rather than identifying those non-complying systems, they are going to extend the CLEO signoff to everyone using that as a plausible excuse (which is all they need under federal law and court precedent) when their real intent is to increase the unfunded mandate burden on local CLEO in hopes that MORE CLEO will refuse to sign off on the approval because of the time and costs of doing the local background check and the research necessary to tell the BATFE if that particular NFA item is "legal" in that particular jurisdiction.

As an unfunded mandate, no CLEO is REQUIRED to even look at the form. That was settled by the Supreme Court when the BATFE tried to make the CLEO responsible for the NICS checks.

This will increase the expense and paperwork burden on corporations and trusts, make them more likely to be in violation if they neglect to do the paperwork, reduce the likelihood that CLEO will be willing to undertake the burden of filling out and doing the necessary investigations, and therefore will substantially reduce the value and effectiveness of using corporations and trusts as vehicles for NFA ownership.

And that is EXACTLY what the BATFE wants to do. It wants to make it as hard as possible to get an NFA approval and it wants to go back to the "good old days" when the examiners could sit around drinking coffee and telling war stories and occasionally processing the odd NFA form from the very few people who had the time, money and political pull to get the paperwork done.

In other words, the NFA community has made itself a pain in the ass to the BATFE so they are going to use this excuse to inhibit our ability to get NFA items and they are going to do it ADMINISTRATIVELY, just as Obama said he would, without the approval of, and likely in spite of Congress.

The ONLY way to stop or even slow this down is to bury the BATFE and your Congressman in paperwork, but it has to be PROFESSIONAL and POLITE paperwork that makes the following points:

a) The entire fingerprint/photograph background system for NFA items is burdensome, unnecessary and violates Equal Protection because a simple NICS instant check would accomplish the same goal much more quickly and just as effectively...given that it's already a serious federal crime for a felon to touch ANY firearm. Thus, the entire NFA should be amended to require ONLY a NICS instant check for ANY NFA application, and that NICS check should extend to ANYONE who has physical or administrative control over the NFA item, private, corporate or trust. Quick and easy, go to a gun shop, run the NICS check on employees and trustees, get back an approval number from NICS, give a copy of the 4473 to the corporate office or trustee with the name and authorization on the form and the company files it in the NFA files and they are done. In order to get a NICS check you ALREADY have to submit verifiable state or federal picture ID, and all those driver's license, ID and passport databases are linked together at the federal level so a NICS check will cover the situation adequately. With modern computer systems and the in-place NICS system, the fingerprint/photograph expanded background check AND the CLEO signoff are unnecessary, burdensome and deliberately obstructive.

b) If the local CLEO needs to be notified of an NFA item in his jurisdiction then it should be merely a NOTIFICATION. The BATFE would send a form or copy of the federal form to the CLEO with the REQUEST that if the CLEO knows of any reason that person should not be allowed to have the NFA item it is up to the CLEO to CONTACT THE BATFE and register and OBJECTION to the transfer, at which point the process would be suspended pending investigation and appeal.

If the CLEO doesn't find any reason to object, or simply ignores the notification, the process proceeds on track as if an approval was given. In other words, it's "approved unless objected to."

c) It is objectively reasonable that ANYONE who has control over an NFA item must be required to undergo a NICS check and that the corporation or trust obtain and keep the documentation that the individual is not disqualified from possessing firearms and make that information available to the BATFE for inspection if necessary.

We are NOT going to get them to do away with either the CLEO sign off OR the universal background check because they don't put forward an NPRM unless they have already made up their minds what they are going to do.

But we can put pressure on the BATFE by submitting reasonable, rational, polite and carefully-worded arguments and suggestions to both the BATFE during the 90 day comment window AND to our Congressional representatives who can put pressure on the administration to cooperate, or ultimately make a new law.

But we MUST be reasonable, rational and sane about this. If they get hammered with a bunch of irate rants and raves they will use those against us to say "See, these redneck jackasses can't be trusted, they can't even write a reasoned response!" It'll be very bad if that happens.

But there is NO TIME TO WASTE, and everyone who cares needs to get with the program and start writing letters and most of all contacting others and getting them in on the effort. The NFA is a very small community comparatively speaking and we have to find ways to encourage regular gun owners to participate on the "if they can do it to us, they can do it to you" basis. And that's exactly what's in the cards. If they can require fingerprints and photographs for NFA items, and they can require CLEO approval, there's not very much standing in the way of a change in the rules that applies that process to EVERY gun purchase.

So get with the program and spread the word!
 
Way to turn this thread completely political...
 
WARNING:
If you move your lips while you read, then you're gonna have a face cramp AND feel out-of-breath by the time you finish Altnews' post above.


I feel like I just got politically yelled-at by the Micro-Machines guy...


To the OP: get your trust. Put only the minimum of people on it. You can make legal additions later. Buy some cans.
 
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I am just impressed that someone form Boulder CO has this viewpoint. You must be in hell considering what is going on in Colorado.. I went to school in Boulder 28 years ago and the Liberals then drove me insane.. I cant imagine what it must be like now.

Good job Altnews. I Agree, if we want to keep the right to be able to own the cool toys then we do need to be on the ball with this stuff or we will be stuck with using slide fire stocks, solvent traps and oil filters.
 
Well, it IS completely political so what's the problem?

Do you really need me to explain it to you or are you capable of reading rules and fucking comprehension? There's a reason Frank pulled the 2nd Amendment section...
 
Op, no there is still a rule making process which takes time, and while anything can happen, often folks are grandfathered in under the rules by which they apply. I would move quickly, and would only hesitate if I lived in a locale where the CLEO won't sign. There is more benefit to a trust than just expediting the process... Good luck.
 
Well, it IS completely political so what's the problem?

No political posts on the 'Hide. Period. Read the rules.

The majority of your post concerns civic process and your interpretation of future possibilities. Fine.
Just delete the name-calling stuff about specific people and political parties.

Education about government policies/processes? Seems legit.
Obvious political rants? Not on Frank's site.

Most of us probably agree on the civic duty call to action, but that's not what the OP is asking about...
 
So this is probably not the time to try and lobby to get suppressors removed from the nfa huh lol

Aside from the fact I'll probably never afford a machine gun, it is stupid that suppressors are on this thing. I'm just glad I got mine when I did but I really wanted to make a form 1 can. With current wait times and political attention, it is practically discouraging to start more paperwork.


Sent from my Galaxy S4
 
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So this is probably not the time to try and lobby to get suppressors removed from the nfa huh lol

Aside from the fact I'll probably never afford a machine gun, it is stupid that suppressors are on this thing. I'm just glad I got mine when I did but I really wanted to make a form 1 can. With current wait times and political attention, it is practically discouraging to start more paperwork.


Sent from my Galaxy S4

Go to eForms and do your Form 1. They are going to processing within a day or two.
 
So here's the million dollar question...Did I just miss the boat on ever owning a suppressor? My plan was a trust given the CLEO requirement. I actually have some documents arriving this week to begin the trust creation. I don't want to sink $500 in attorney fees and create my revocable trust...and then not be able to get through the rest of the process.

So do I create a trust as quickly as possible, pay for a few suppressors, and submit my forms now...or wait and see how it plays out?

I've heard that people are using the electronic forms and getting approved in several weeks...is this possible?

Thanks.

The quick answer is that if you were planning on putting a suppressor on a trust that you are going to pay a lawyer $500 to draft up, I would not spend my cash on it. It is likely that trusts submitted prior to the rule change will be grandfathered in, but that is not something I would blow $500 on. I have one in process right now that I have been waiting on 6 months. I am not confident of being grandfathered in, but what can I do. The gun trust lawyers are saying now is the best time before the 90 days are up, but they are, shall we say, biased. My gun trust is made using Willmaker. I had no problem getting suppressor #1. The feds aren't kicking down doors because of improper trusts. They are trying to close the loophole on trusts period.

If I were filing today, I would go through the normal process. The only reason to use a Trust at this point is to save money on the tax stamp after you die. When I die, I will be dead and not care so much. You might have a different opinion.
 
The quick answer is that if you were planning on putting a suppressor on a trust that you are going to pay a lawyer $500 to draft up, I would not spend my cash on it. It is likely that trusts submitted prior to the rule change will be grandfathered in, but that is not something I would blow $500 on. I have one in process right now that I have been waiting on 6 months. I am not confident of being grandfathered in, but what can I do. The gun trust lawyers are saying now is the best time before the 90 days are up, but they are, shall we say, biased. My gun trust is made using Willmaker. I had no problem getting suppressor #1. The feds aren't kicking down doors because of improper trusts. They are trying to close the loophole on trusts period.

If I were filing today, I would go through the normal process. The only reason to use a Trust at this point is to save money on the tax stamp after you die. When I die, I will be dead and not care so much. You might have a different opinion.

I believe if they already started processing you'll likely get grandfathered. Trusts are also still beneficial if you have kids that can't take immediate posession.
 
I am just impressed that someone form Boulder CO has this viewpoint. You must be in hell considering what is going on in Colorado.. I went to school in Boulder 28 years ago and the Liberals then drove me insane.. I cant imagine what it must be like now.

Good job Altnews. I Agree, if we want to keep the right to be able to own the cool toys then we do need to be on the ball with this stuff or we will be stuck with using slide fire stocks, solvent traps and oil filters.

Grew up there from a sprout and watched the whole thing go down the Marxist drain one cut at a time. It's not called "The People's Republic of Boulder" for nothing.

Bob Brown, the Publisher of SOF Magazine still lives there. I think he delights in raising the blood pressure of the liberal proletarian dependent class and the Marxist elite in Boulder just by continuing to exist and continuing to publish a magazine out of Boulder that is antithetical to everything that Boulder and Boulder County stands for.

Me? I'm somewhere else now. Bob's a better man than I am, I couldn't take it anymore.
 
No political posts on the 'Hide. Period. Read the rules.

The majority of your post concerns civic process and your interpretation of future possibilities. Fine.
Just delete the name-calling stuff about specific people and political parties.

Education about government policies/processes? Seems legit.
Obvious political rants? Not on Frank's site.

Most of us probably agree on the civic duty call to action, but that's not what the OP is asking about...

If Frank doesn't like it, he knows where to get in touch with me and tell me so. If we can't talk about political threats to our industry and interests here, something is really, really wrong.
 
Form 3 wait times did drop on the new system. I don't think electronic form 1s will be a few days. Heck they have to mail you a stamp
 
Those aren't the only reasons to use a trust, really if you aren't a felon or otherwise legally disabled from NFA ownership, not much will change if this goes through from the why own a trust perspective! Trusts allow multiple people to hold the NFA property or possess it OUTSIDE the presence of 1 Particular person. If you go the regular route YOU cant let anyone ANYONE else possess the suppressor unless you are present WITH them. If you want to have a trust for group ownership purposes, estate purposes and privacy purposes Trusts still will provide all those benefits over traditional SINGLE OWNER types of ownership.
Again if you are using a Trust to otherwise get around a legal or criminal disability well then you are an idiot because you are still illegal. Most trusts I have reviewed have some language in them preventing those disabled from lawfully possessing any of the NFA items in the trust anyway.
The reasons to use a trust go way beyond a lot of what people seem to be worrying about in this thread?
 
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Well, it IS completely political so what's the problem?
I don't agree with this he is just stating facts, politics is only tangential to this as all decisions made by the govt are political

Your reading comprehension is evident since even he admitted it was political. The relevance doesn't change the intent or purpose...
 
Those aren't the only reasons to use a trust, really if you aren't a felon or otherwise legally disabled from NFA ownership, not much will change if this goes through from the why own a trust perspective! Trusts allow multiple people to hold the NFA property or possess it OUTSIDE the presence of 1 Particular person. If you go the regular route YOU cant let anyone ANYONE else possess the suppressor unless you are present WITH them. If you want to have a trust for group ownership purposes, estate purposes and privacy purposes Trusts still will provide all those benefits over traditional SINGLE OWNER types of ownership.
Again if you are using a Trust to otherwise get around a legal or criminal disability well then you are an idiot because you are still illegal. Most trusts I have reviewed have some language in them preventing those disabled from lawfully possessing any of the NFA items in the trust anyway.
The reasons to use a trust go way beyond a lot of what people seem to be worrying about in this thread?

You do realize that in most States any Trust that is in violation of the law is already considered invalid so adding language of that nature is in basic terms... retarded.
 
So here's a little field intel if anyone is interested...

I dropped my Form 4 in the mail today, but first called the ATF and asked this exact question since I'm registering under a trust. The nice lady at the ATF said they had not received any notification of a change and were continuing "business as usual" (i.e. no CLEO signature, prints, pics).

Though nothing says it won't change tomorrow...
 
Twice now our local Sherriff (CLEO) has been charged theft, misappropriation and a host of other crimes. So he will have a current list of everything you have in your position. Federal law with a local approval. Does not sound quite right. They already get a copy of the 4473 if I purchase two guns at the same time. What a bunch of stuff that is. I have played the waiting game and been burned ny it. When you purchase a can and have to wait 9 months to get the "paperwork" approved, the class 3 can go out of business, move, die... whatever and you are screwed.
 
I submitted my paperwork to the ATF w/ Trust paperwork and the check was cashed today. Looks like they are going to continue processing until (if*) the rules officially change.
 
I submitted my paperwork to the ATF w/ Trust paperwork and the check was cashed today. Looks like they are going to continue processing until (if*) the rules officially change.

FYI...they cash the checks before they even look at anything. That's step 1.

The only thing you can assume at this point is they opened your envelope and collected their extortion payment. ;)
 
Nick please don't give out bad legal advice you "learned" on the Internet. Get a law degree then pass a bar exam then practice some years before you try to pretend you understand Trusts enough to advise others. Your premise any trust with a part invalid or in violation of law is invalid as a whole in most states is a lie. Stop spreading misinformation you idiot. An illegal act is an illegal act period as I said nothing in the trust can change that BUT legally It doesn't mean as you have wrongfully said that the entire trust is invalid in most states. Your reading comprehension must need some work in the many States you imply you are a Trust Expert in. Stop Using Google and thinking you know shit !
 
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FYI...they cash the checks before they even look at anything. That's step 1.

The only thing you can assume at this point is they opened your envelope and collected their extortion payment. ;)

I wish it wasn't the case but you are correct. I often forget that the government functions by the "cash the check first and ask questions later" mentality. I feel thoroughly extorted now, thanks :)