mini red dot mounted way out front???

[prodigalson]

Howdy folks. I had my AR configured the way I THOUGHT I would like it. Problem is, it weighs every bit of 10lbs, and that isn't gonna cut it. So I plan on shaving some weight by taking off my variable power scope and replacing it with a mini red dot. Trijicon RMR, Leupold delta, Burris fast fire, I haven't decided yet.

What I intend to do, is mount it way out on the fore end on the top rail. I have no experience with this type of sight, and my concern is with being able to see the dot due to parallax.

Does anybody here have any experience with these sights as their primary optic? And would those people say yay or nay to this? And BTW, I do plan on buying one of those protective shields just in case I smash it on the truck door putting it in our taking it out.

Thanks for the input.

 

[elfster1234]

This is what I would do if you really want to go the red dot option... This will be the first and last red dot that you will need to purchase if you do it right the first time,,,,, you don't need to worry about parallax,,, and will give you the option to use as a primary red dot OR maybe even use as an eventual offset red dot if you decide to sell the rifle and transplant the red dot to something else.

Buy an aimpoint micro t-1, 2moa OR 4moa pick of your flavor:

Aimpoint Micro T-1 2MOA/M4 QD Mount Combo | LaRue Tactical

DO NOT get a burris fast fire type red dot OR eotech! Been there, done that, wasted money IMO. Right now I'm using an aimpoint pro and it's really nice for the money,,, but if I was you..... get the micro t-1 to shave off even more weight!

Howdy folks. I had my AR configured the way I THOUGHT I would like it. Problem is, it weighs every bit of 10lbs, and that isn't gonna cut it. So I plan on shaving some weight by taking off my variable power scope and replacing it with a mini red dot. Trijicon RMR, Leupold delta, Burris fast fire, I haven't decided yet.

What I intend to do, is mount it way out on the fore end on the top rail. I have no experience with this type of sight, and my concern is with being able to see the dot due to parallax.

Does anybody here have any experience with these sights as their primary optic? And would those people say yay or nay to this? And BTW, I do plan on buying one of those protective shields just in case I smash it on the truck door putting it in our taking it out.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Shooter0311]

I agree with Elfster except unplug larue and plug in Alamo 4 star standard height DLOC mount for T1. I really like the rmr series
but as a primary; I much prefer t1 micro (2 moa for me).

Just my .02...

T1 mounted forward with law folder and dueck RTS on 45 (cannot see).

 

[Papa Zero Three]

What I intend to do, is mount it way out on the fore end on the top rail.

Why do you think mounting it farther away from you is a better idea than mounting it were it normally goes on the rail?

 

[308Hunter]

I have always mounted my issued red dot as far forward as possible. This gives you the longest sight radius, and makes the system more accurate.
Think 3-dot sights on a hand gun compared to a open sighted rifle.

 

[prodigalson]

Why do you think mounting it farther away from you is a better idea than mounting it were it normally goes on the rail?

My thought process = 1) better peripheral vision. 2) faster target acquisition because of number 1. It's just the way my brain thinks. LoL.

 

[SniperCJ]

I have always mounted my issued red dot as far forward as possible. This gives you the longest sight radius, and makes the system more accurate.
Think 3-dot sights on a hand gun compared to a open sighted rifle.

Whaaat!? "Longer sight radius'?? There IS no sight radius with a red dot sight. How can mounting it farther out make it more accurate.

PS - Get the T-1 Micro

 

[Papa Zero Three]

My thought process = 1) better peripheral vision. 2) faster target acquisition because of number 1. It's just the way my brain thinks. LoL.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intentions here. Are you wanting to mount this on the rail where typically the front sight post/Front BUIS is located?

 

[prodigalson]

Yep, you got it. LoL. Like I said, it's one of those theoretical things that floated through my cranium. Ha ha ha ha.

 

[mtrmn]

I started with red dots long ago with the Armson OEG. The instructions with it said to mount it as far forward as possible and that's just the way I've done it ever since. I have never mounted one THAT far out though. Mine are mounted as far fwd as possible on the flattop receiver. I have a Docter (like Trijicon used to sell) and a Burris Fastfire. I still use the OEG's on a couple of guns.

 

[elfster1234]

Personally, I like to have my red dot as far back as I can get it just so the rear flip cap misses my rear iron sight as shown here in this pic and this is the reason why (especially if you have astigmatism or any type of blurred red dot due to small amount of astigmatism).... Everyone is different and this is just what I do:

Try testing this yourself regardless if you have an eotech or any other red dot.... The closer the red dot unit the smaller the dot or eotech dot. The further way the red dot unit the bigger the red dot or eotech dot. As a recreational shooter, I'm usually just screwing around at the range shooting groups. Once in a blue moon I'll do some spray and pray stuff but I find that as a waste of ammo being a reloader unless I'm practicing unsupported standing, kneeling, sitting, or prone. I always have an objective when I hit the range may it be improving my personal skill or testing reloaded ammo as I hate wasting money... Regardless, this is my home defense rifle hence the reason for the red dot. If I need a bigger & more pronounced dot, then I'll just jack up the brightness setting for spray and pray type stuff....... BUT if I'm going for groups then I like to have my red dot as small and as perfectly round as possible. The closer the unit, the smaller the dot. For some strange reason I have a very small amount of astigmatism with red dots when going for groups. I have found you can make the red dot crazy small, crazy clear, and perfectly round if you LOWER THE BRITNESS SETTING AS LOW AS VISIBLY POSSIBLE WHILE CO-WITNESSINGS WITH THE REAR IRON SIGHT ONLY using the SMALLER HOLE REAR SIGHT APERATURE.... The smaller hole aperture (just like a pin hole in paper) actually somewhat magnifies / concentrates the red dot light and makes it perfectly round, clear, and crisp for detail work like shooting groups if that's your deal. This is also called the "stenopeic effect" such as pinhole glasses. The closer the red dot unit, the smaller the dot MOA size. Don't believe me? try it for yourself! Another reason why I like aimpoint single dots & not eotech = easier to co-witness and less busy.

As for field of view...... try flipping your caps DOWN and NOT UP!! you will get a hell of a lot more field of view with the caps out of the way & the body of the red dot unit pretty much disappears with 1x two eye open viewing anyways & also protects your caps from getting busted off..... This is why aimpoints rock (coming from a person that has owned eotechs before)... One single dot, easy protective caps, small unit body. IF red dots is your thing. Personally, I would much rather have a variable power 1-4, 1-6, blah blah blah scope... I absolutely hate red dot magnifiers..... but being that this is my home defense rifle, then the red dot is a MUST HAVE & is nice to screw around with from time to time.

Howdy folks. I had my AR configured the way I THOUGHT I would like it. Problem is, it weighs every bit of 10lbs, and that isn't gonna cut it. So I plan on shaving some weight by taking off my variable power scope and replacing it with a mini red dot. Trijicon RMR, Leupold delta, Burris fast fire, I haven't decided yet.

What I intend to do, is mount it way out on the fore end on the top rail. I have no experience with this type of sight, and my concern is with being able to see the dot due to parallax.

Does anybody here have any experience with these sights as their primary optic? And would those people say yay or nay to this? And BTW, I do plan on buying one of those protective shields just in case I smash it on the truck door putting it in our taking it out.

Thanks for the input.

 

[WB300]

OP,

I second everything elfster stated, all the way down to having the covers flip down. For years I was the only one on our SWAT Team using an Aimpoint (4moa dot). When it was time for me to lay behind the .308, I'd let someone use my M4. Guys started coming out of pocket to purchase their own. I'd go with the 2moa dot and mount it just like in the pic above.

Bill

 

[mallrat]

Used to have a cheap red dot mounted on the front of a rifle length quadrail, worked for me. Then I decided that I wanted crosshairs even in case of a dead battery so I got a pistol scope and mounted it in the same location. Works fine, and the model I ended up with can be illuminated for low light or shadowy conditions. Not saying it's necessarily better than a conventional setup in all circumstances, but its worth trying.

 

[elfster1234]

2nd that with the 2moa dot also..... if you want it more pronounced, then you just jack up the brightness

OP,

I second everything elfster stated, all the way down to having the covers flip down. For years I was the only one on our SWAT Team using an Aimpoint (4moa dot). When it was time for me to lay behind the .308, I'd let someone use my M4. Guys started coming out of pocket to purchase their own. I'd go with the 2moa dot and mount it just like in the pic above.

Bill

 

[LtDan]

I have an Aimpoint PRO on my RRA 5.56 and SCAR 16, both mounted forward, fairly close to the flip front sight. Having the optic further forward really opens up your field of view and is very beneficial when using the weapon in a room clearing situation. Personal preference will be the deciding factor, I've used it mounted both ways and really prefer it farther away.

I've never tried utilizing the dot with the rear sight like Elfster suggested, sounds interesting and I'll have to try that for precision work.

 

[Delta4-3]

I have to disagree there, respectfully of course. When you mount a red dot back closer to the eye, and run both eyes open, you don't see the sight, just the dot when using it under room clearing situations. When it's forward, it tends to distract as you see the sight body too, and causes your eye to fight one more focal plane. There is a reason no special unit ever puts a red dot up front.

I have an Aimpoint PRO on my RRA 5.56 and SCAR 16, both mounted forward, fairly close to the flip front sight. Having the optic further forward really opens up your field of view and is very beneficial when using the weapon in a room clearing situation. Personal preference will be the deciding factor, I've used it mounted both ways and really prefer it farther away.

I've never tried utilizing the dot with the rear sight like Elfster suggested, sounds interesting and I'll have to try that for precision work.

 

[LtDan]

I have to disagree there, respectfully of course. When you mount a red dot back closer to the eye, and run both eyes open, you don't see the sight, just the dot when using it under room clearing situations. When it's forward, it tends to distract as you see the sight body too, and causes your eye to fight one more focal plane. There is a reason no special unit ever puts a red dot up front.

No worries, no one solution works for everyone. My experience is exactly the opposite, when it is farther away I see much less of the sight body, my field of view is much better and the dot is always right there for me. Most of my training with it has been in school buildings during active shooter scenarios where I had it mounted both ways several times on both of my 5.56 rifles to make sure it was what suited my 48 year old eyes best. It may be different if used in more confined areas, I will definitely explore that possibility.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Yep, you got it. LoL. Like I said, it's one of those theoretical things that floated through my cranium. Ha ha ha ha.

putting the red dot sight near the muzzle of the weapon will not help you in any way. Yes, it can be done, but it is far from efficient and defeats the purpose of running a red dot sight,that being, able to shoot with both eyes open, remain situationally aware and quick target acquisition.

Try this simple test if you doubt me. With your hand form a circle, all four fingers extended and joined and bend them until your thumb touches your index finger (make a pretend monocular). Now look at objects in your house from 2-3 feet away to across the room. Put you hand up 2-4 inches away from your face and look at these objects. Notice how they appear in your circle and how easy it is to pinpoint them. Now move your hand to arms length and repeat the process. Notice how you have to make an effort to focus on and look through the circle and locate the intended target. You've effectively reduced your field of view through the optic, made it harder to quickly acquire the target and introduced more obstruction (sight body) into your field of view. At longer distances, this becomes even more pronounced. By longer I mean from 5m and out. What's easier and quicker to look through, a big hole or a small hole?

There is a reason why everyone in the industry mounts their red dot optics pretty much directly over the ejection port of the weapon on ARs when its used as a primary optic. It is also the reason why those who use a red dot as a back up to a bolt gun mount it closer to the scope, be it be it by the front or back of the scope body. It doesn't make much sense to mount it further away from you and renders the optic (and you) less efficient.

 

[LtDan]

putting the red dot sight near the muzzle of the weapon will not help you in any way. Yes, it can be done, but it is far from efficient and defeats the purpose of running a red dot sight,that being, able to shoot with both eyes open, remain situationally aware and quick target acquisition.

Try this simple test if you doubt me. With your hand form a circle, all four fingers extended and joined and bend them until your thumb touches your index finger (make a pretend monocular). Now look at objects in your house from 2-3 feet away to across the room. Put you hand up 2-4 inches away from your face and look at these objects. Notice how they appear in your circle and how easy it is to pinpoint them. Now move your hand to arms length and repeat the process. Notice how you have to make an effort to focus on and look through the circle and locate the intended target. You've effectively reduced your field of view through the optic, made it harder to quickly acquire the target and introduced more obstruction (sight body) into your field of view. At longer distances, this becomes even more pronounced. By longer I mean from 5m and out. What's easier and quicker to look through, a big hole or a small hole?

There is a reason why everyone in the industry mounts their red dot optics pretty much directly over the ejection port of the weapon on ARs when its used as a primary optic. It is also the reason why those who use a red dot as a back up to a bolt gun mount it closer to the scope, be it be it by the front or back of the scope body. It doesn't make much sense to mount it further away from you and renders the optic (and you) less efficient.

Your test shows moving the optic close increases your field of view thru the optic, which it does. Moving the optic further increases your field of view all around, particularly with you right eye as the body of the optic is not blocking your field of view. All you need to be able to see is the aiming point, which stands out perfectly. At least for me.

Not saying it is for everyone, but it is faster for me and opens up my field of view, not thru the optic but overall. Try it, then place your optic wherever it works best for ya.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

You fail to address the Cons you are subjected to deal with an optic mounted farther away. Also, the FOV when mounted in the traditional position is not negatively affected by the sight body, it is minimal at best. One does not walk around looking through the optic for more than a few moments when engaging a target. The shooter (dependant on the situation) is in a high ready and is looking right above the optic body, so there is zero blockage of the field of view. I am not saying you cannot do the same with a far mounted red dot, I am saying that it is less efficient and not worth doing;it's like practicing a bad habit. I say this based on my experience as an instructor of CQB and having had applied it on a two way range. Just because you can, doens't mean you should or that it's OK to do. For a recreational shooter, flat range plinker who has plenty of time, it might work fine but for real world application or even shooting scenarios found in most carbine courses, it takes more time and shot groups open up.

Bottom line, there really are no PRO's to mounting the optic farther out. If it works for you great but time yourself and others with the optic in both locations and you will find that everyones times will be quicker and shot groups tighter when the optic is mounted in the traditional location.If you don't want to believe my advise here, then look at the top competitors of tactical 3 gun matches. Speed, time and accuracy are all things these people look at shaving down and use every advantage they can find. You won't find anyone of them running a red dot that far out. If there was any advantage in doing it, they would be doing it. The fact that you don't see this happening should tell you something.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

TNVC had (may still) an extreme forward Mt for T1 that worked really well for me on varmints. I plan to use z 1x4
for primary and the offset forward mountef T1 In 3 Gun.

 

[LtDan]

"Mounting on the M16A4 Rifle or M4-Series Carbine

2-31. The M68 mounts directly on the integrated rail on top of M16A4 rifles and M4-series carbines (Figure 2-23 ). The half-moon spacer (1, Figure 23 ) must be installed to raise the M68 above the front sightpost. The Soldier’s preference dictates the notch that the M68 is mounted on. Although any notch is acceptable, testing has shown that the farther away the M68 is from the Soldier’s eyes, the better his field of view."

From the Army Field manual FM3-22.9

In any case, I have actually tried it mounted each way, found the way that works best for me. Run yours from the bottom of the magwell if that's what works for you.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

"Mounting on the M16A4 Rifle or M4-Series Carbine

2-31. The M68 mounts directly on the integrated rail on top of M16A4 rifles and M4-series carbines (Figure 2-23 ). The half-moon spacer (1, Figure 23 ) must be installed to raise the M68 above the front sightpost. The Soldier’s preference dictates the notch that the M68 is mounted on. Although any notch is acceptable, testing has shown that the farther away the M68 is from the Soldier’s eyes, the better his field of view."

From the Army Field manual FM3-22.9

In any case, I have actually tried it mounted each way, found the way that works best for me. Run yours from the bottom of the magwell if that's what works for you.

I understand you are trying to justify your choice but the above does not support your position and I have to question if you've even used the M68 to think it would work effectively that far out on the gun.. Look at the accompanying pictures in that manual Starting with figure 2-1,2-2,2-6,2-9, etc. All pictures show the M68 being mounted on the upper receiver, NOT the handguard or anywhere near the front sight post. The only exception to this is if a PVS14 is mounted (figure 2-25), then the M68 is mounted forward of the upper receiver to make space for the pvs 14 if needed. NO WHERE in the FM does it show or even suggest you mount it on the handguard rail for normal use. I teach this material and use this manual (among many others)for a living, I am not trying to justify my personal preference, I am simply stating how this optic (and other red dots) was designed and intended to be used. The key word being Intended. You can mount an optic anywhere there is pic rail to mount it, doesn't mean its correct or can be used effectively from that position.

Since you are content with using your optic that far forward and it works for you, drive on, but for 99.99% of the rest of the users out there, it is not the recommended way to use it.

 

[Dogtown]

FYI, electronics don't like intense heat and you'll find a lot more out front than you will towards the rear of a rifle.

 

[LtDan]

I understand you are trying to justify your choice

No, I never have been, don't have to. As I've stated, it works for me. I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone, just offered it. I should have clipped the sentence "testing has shown that the farther away the M68 is from the Soldier’s eyes, the better his field of view".

I doubt you speak for all but .01% of the rest of the users out there, and an internet credential pissing contest is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded. Take note from an above post, a differing viewpoint offered, respectfully, and it's food for thought. Thats what I was offering, a differing opinion. If you are unable to agree to disagree, then type on...

The heat factor is not a concern. Not shooting select fire and if I'm in an engagement in Central Ohio that generates that amount of heat, the optic is my last concern.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I doubt you speak for all but .01% of the rest of the users out there

Well take a look at anyone who is anyone in the shooting industry, or even just average Joes red dot set ups and you will see that what I have stated is indeed true.

and an internet credential pissing contest is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded. Take note from an above post, a differing viewpoint offered, respectfully, and it's food for thought. Thats what I was offering, a differing opinion. If you are unable to agree to disagree, then type on...

agreed on the pissing contest comment. I'm not trying to be argumentative or push a personal preference, but simply provide factual information and good common accepted practices.

 

[prodigalson]

So, one thing everybody can agree on, is that I should stay away from the RMR type micro red dots, and lean towards an aimpoint t1 style? Maybe a Vortex Sparc? Any other suggestions?

 

[elfster1234]

just get the micro t1 and be done with it.. you will thank us all later and will need to be the last one you purchase....

other option would be an aimpoint pro which already comes with the mount for like $400 dollars as in my picture above... great optic for the money, but if you want the option down the road to run as an offset, then get the micro t1

So, one thing everybody can agree on, is that I should stay away from the RMR type micro red dots, and lean towards an aimpoint t1 style? Maybe a Vortex Sparc? Any other suggestions?

 

[Papa Zero Three]

So, one thing everybody can agree on, is that I should stay away from the RMR type micro red dots, and lean towards an aimpoint t1 style? Maybe a Vortex Sparc? Any other suggestions?

As a primary optic, an RMR might not be the best choice, they tend to be small and are great secondary sights and or good on pistol's. For a primary red dot optic a T/H-1, an Eotech, Trijicon SRS or a Aimpoint patrol would all be good choices. Less expensive options would be the Bushnell TRS-25, the Vortex Sparc, or the vortex Strikefire.