Hits at 1000...so elusive?

[Wannashootit]

Got back from the range yesterday. Still tweaking, but so far have settled on 44.6 of H4350 giving an avg. of 2678 with the 162 Amax from my 7-08.
Hitting the 10" plate at 565 is too damn easy, even with the crappy OEM trigger still on my Savage. Yeah, I know it's only minute-and-a-half shooting...

But seems that extra 400 yards is far more elusive than I ever thought it would be. After dialing up about 30 minutes from the 200 yard zero, I had bullets splashing everywhere directly NEXT to, but never ON, the plate at 1000 yards. It was about as good a day as one could hope for, still to very light wind- and what was there was close to zero value at our backs.

I know that all the environmental influences really start to kick in beyond 600. The last 400 is down a ditch there (at Manatee), so I can only wonder about wind effects through there. But holding off based on the last splash of dirt still didn't get me hits.

I realize that at least some of this is the diff between my 3/4 minute rifle and what a more accurate one can achieve.

Any tips on getting over the hump of the last 400 yards?

 

[msmith64]

My guess is that the round is transonic at that range and the trajectory can be real weird when that happens. I have very similar issues pas 700 yds or so with 308 rounds at 2670 fps. To go past 700 yds or so I need to run 175 grain bullets, I am guessing that a heavier round will help you too.

 

[Wannashootit]

The 162 is pretty heavy for the 7-08, and the BC of the Amax is off the chart. The calculator shows 1477 fps at 1000, so still (theoretically) plenty of supersonic velocity at that range.

 

[SporterII]

Yep, that 162 is still hot @ 1000. 2670 with 44.6 h4350 is good speed. That range will fool ya with horizontal berms feeding jet streams at several points. Off from the right mostly. Those wind socks on the left above do not tell the story as you have found. Nice place, just have to walk it and pay attention. If you are all over it, you are about there. Not the easiest place with wind.

 

[Rprecision]

When the math is played out you realize very quick all of the fundamentals have a notable difference at 1k.

I am a bit confused as I would expect your comment consistent with a .308 @ 1k not the more BC efficient 7-08. I always thought a 7-08 could put the hurt down and really buck the wind.

 

[7magsavage]

I would be willing to bet that the wind was variable. I remember going out to practice one day and the wind was really light (less than 5mph), and I thought it would be extremely easy at just about any distance. However, I had the same thing happen. I would miss just a little left, hold a tad right then miss just a little right. I figured out that the albeit light wind was just swirling around and this was just enough to cause a miss just off one side of the target or the other. I would rather shoot in consistent 15 mph winds than just a swirling breeze any given day.

 

[Wannashootit]

Yep, that 162 is still hot @ 1000. 2670 with 44.6 h4350 is good speed. That range will fool ya with horizontal berms feeding jet streams at several points. Off from the right mostly. Those wind socks on the left above do not tell the story as you have found. Nice place, just have to walk it and pay attention. If you are all over it, you are about there. Not the easiest place with wind.

Thanks, that's kinda what I was thinking.... the wind socks twenty feet in the air on top of the berms often don't relate at all to flagging down closer to ground level. Considering the bullet's arc (wonder what the "highest" elevation it reaches, is?) from ground level to the target doesn't surprise me.

I've always figure that long, deep ditch down to the 1000 yard plates was a different world- guess it takes a lot of experience there to know what's really happening those last 400 yards.

 

[Rprecision]

I've always figure that long, deep ditch down to the 1000 yard plates was a different world- guess it takes a lot of experience there to know what's really happening those last 400 yards.

having stronger winds at target has greater effect on bullet flight due to time of flight too!

 

[7magsavage]

having stronger winds at target has greater effect on bullet flight due to time of flight too!

It has always been my understanding that it's just the opposite. The winds at the shooter have more effect on drift than at the target.

 

[milo 2.0]

You've got the optimum bullet for the case, really it's just a matter of getting a hit, after that will come another, then more, one day you'll be making it your first shot of the day.
Loose the gremlins, get your confidence up and don't look back, everyone's had their ass handed to them by the wind. I'm not into data books, or documenting stuff, just remember that gray matter between your ears is one of the most efficient hard drives available.

As for wind effect, split it into thirds, close, mid and far, where the wind is the strongest will have the most effect, and wind 30-40 feet in the air is stronger than on the ground, the majority of the time. One day, in 35mph wind, it took 1 3/4 min right wind to hit at 500, but took 1/2 min right to hit at 1K and 1100.
Just drill the target! The more you dwell on it, the harder it will be.

 

[Dan Newberry]

If you were shooting in a wind coming from the front, or from the rear, and vacillating from 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock (or 7 to 5), then you're going to have a hard time sorting it out. Add to this the fact that you should want to become as proficient as possible at discerning the wind without wind flags (just the grass and trees and scope mirage)--and that makes it even harder.

We will assume that your vertical spread is good, and that your bullets were not hitting high over the target on one shot, and dropping low on the next. If that is the case, then the load will need to be re-developed to get rid of velocity variations as much as possible.

So again, assuming no major vertical (MOA or less), you're missing left, then right, then left...

All of the wind matters, the wind at the shooting position... midrange wind... as well as wind in the last 100 yards before the bullet hits the target. For ranges past 400 yards, we always take three wind readings: Firing Position, Midrange, and Target. (Wind at the target isn't worth anything, but it is a good indicator of what is probably happening just prior to getting to the target). If you average these three readings, you get a decent idea of the wind value.

This works very well in actual shooting--not just here on the 'net.

But back to the "miss right, miss left" conundrum. This is normally due to a wind that is slicing the bullet's path, first one way, then the other. First from 1 o'clock, then from 11 o'clock. How can we react to this?

Unfortunately, the only good answer is to "wait." Simply wait on the wind to change that pattern long enough for you to get a more readable condition. Wind runs in patterns, and it'll eventually change from the slicing, fish-tailing situation to something more manageable.

If you cannot wait (or if you just want to wing it and see how things go), do this:

Begin timing the breeze from the firing position (because this is where you can most easily determine wind speed and direction). When you feel the wind slicing more against the right side of your face for 10 to 15 seconds, then it drops off... you can bet that the same condition will repeat within a couple of minutes. When it does, be ready. But don't wait until the end of that 10 to 15 second cycle this time--shoot about 6 seconds into it, and mark your bullet strike (either by spotter or by seeing the hit in your own scope, which is a vital skill to develop). If you miss left... hang tight, and wait for that same wind pattern to come back around, them make your follow up shot with the appropriate amount of hold over to get on target.

I "engineered" a little gadget that anyone can carry in their field bag, which will give you a wind direction indicator for your firing position. If you lean the stick toward the direction of the prevailing wind, the straw will droop in that direction when the wind is at a lull.

field expedient wind direction indicator, for long range shooting - YouTube

Lastly... when we have free-style time at the end of a course day, and we see this slicing wind "miss right, miss left" situation going on at the 1040 yard plate, I've found that if I counsel the shooter to break the rhythm by making the seemingly counter-intuitive decision to put a second shot down range with the same wind hold as he/she missed with on the previous shot--more often that not, we get a hit.

Slicing wind is a real booger when you're judging it from natural elements alone (no wind flags).

Dan

 

[damoncali]

I "engineered" a little gadget that anyone can carry in their field bag, which will give you a wind direction indicator for your firing position. If you lean the stick toward the direction of the prevailing wind, the straw will droop in that direction when the wind is at a lull.

field expedient wind direction indicator, for long range shooting - YouTube


Dan

Brilliant! Makes me wonder how a higher tech version of the concept would work.

 

[Pinecone]

Slicing wind is a real booger when you're judging it from natural elements alone (no wind flags).

Dan

Oh YEAH. The second day at your course was a real challenge with the wind.

 

[40xs]

Newberry has your answer! A tail wind is the hardest to shoot in, even at low value, It's constantly zig-zaging and almost impossible to detect exactly when to send it. You are either going to be to the left or to the right of your target. I admire any person who can put them on center in this kind of condition. I would much rather shoot in a full value crosswind any day!

 

[Suasponte]

Remember the fact that your bullet is way above the line of site. Picture tossing a ball that far and how high up that ball would have to go. Just looking at mirage on the ground is not enough to get a good read. I am not familiar with the range your shooting at but look at the height on your ballistic calculator and see if there is a any type of media that would let you get a better read on the wind at the apex of your shot.

Terry

 

[SporterII]

That's right. As has been mentioned.
This range has great indicators 'above berm'. Problem is partly that those berms are high. Posts under supporting windsocks ... Then, there is a 'tunnel' berms from 550 to 1000.
There is a flag , clear, high and behind. I like that for starters. May help ya.