i know a lot of guys are using AR 223/5.56 for big game. say,up to 200lb animals-WT deer,antelope,smaller hogs? can anyone confirm from personal observation or experience that this is a viable option for same yielding clean one shot kills with proper shot placement? out to what ranges? if so,what factory loads have proven successful in this context? thanks for input and thoughts.
Hunting & Fishing AR 223/5.56 for big game hunting
- Thread starter mosin46
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First, check local laws as some states and even counties have laws governing calibers for hunting, especially game animals, not so much for varmints and hogs, etc. the bullet selection is your biggest concern. You want a bullet to penetrate deeply with moderate expansion, no varmint type bullets on game. And, of course, bullet placement because you are already working with a handicap. The demand for optimum attention is utmost. It's a personal decision you are making, but you know there are much better caliber choices for this!
of course i know. use a 308. my question was just looking for people's experiences with 223 for big game,basically as a back up if really needed. i do have a clue about bullet selection.
The .223 would never be my first choice but living in the southeast we don't have very large animals. I have shot deer with 75 grain SMK's and they work.
I would feel comfortable shooting smaller pigs with any grain .223 bullet save varmint loads.
I would feel comfortable shooting smaller pigs with any grain .223 bullet save varmint loads.
I used my AR last year and bagged a very big white tail doe. Used 60 grain Nosler Partitions (hand loaded myself). Deer was taken at less than 100 yds, shot to the head = dropped where it stood. Probably won't deer hunt with my AR again, unless it was my only option. With proper shot placement, an AR gets it done, but from now on, I'll use my .308 bolt gun for deer.
I've taken a shitload of big game animals with .22 centerfires. Take good shots and you'll be fine.
The mule deer buck in my avatar was killed with a 52gr SMK. He went maybe 20 yards with both lungs gone.
The mule deer buck in my avatar was killed with a 52gr SMK. He went maybe 20 yards with both lungs gone.
I killed two whitetail bucks last year with 223 shooting hornady 75 grain hpbt match with amp jackets. One was a really nice 8 point. Prob weighed 160-170 on hoof. Shot twice in lungs and didnt run over 20 yards. 2nd shot prob was not needed but jus hated to chance it on a deer as nice as he was. He was probably only 50 yards away.
2nd buck was smaller but still weighed prob 140. Shot him once at about 80 yards. Lung shot. He ran about 75 yards but only because i pushed him seconds after he was shot. He had piled up 20 yards from where he was shot. Anyway.. Had major blood trail all the way to him.
Moral of story, i dont hesitate to shoot deer/pigs with 223 and 75 grain. I have friends that do same. No issues.
2nd buck was smaller but still weighed prob 140. Shot him once at about 80 yards. Lung shot. He ran about 75 yards but only because i pushed him seconds after he was shot. He had piled up 20 yards from where he was shot. Anyway.. Had major blood trail all the way to him.
Moral of story, i dont hesitate to shoot deer/pigs with 223 and 75 grain. I have friends that do same. No issues.
AR 223/5.56 for big game hunting
65yd headshot on a doe last year with an 80 Amax @ 2890 from my 223AI gave a fist-sized exit wound from inner right eye to right ear.
Wouldn't hesitate taking a boiler room shot on a bruiser B&C buck with it, and am thinking of hunting this year with my FrankenSPR and 77 Noslers just because some folks seem to think ethical 223 kills are unpossible.
65yd headshot on a doe last year with an 80 Amax @ 2890 from my 223AI gave a fist-sized exit wound from inner right eye to right ear.
Wouldn't hesitate taking a boiler room shot on a bruiser B&C buck with it, and am thinking of hunting this year with my FrankenSPR and 77 Noslers just because some folks seem to think ethical 223 kills are unpossible.
I have used it for years. I have taken 20 plus deer with the 5.56. Bullet placement is critical along with using a quality controlled expansion bullet. Barnes X's and Nolser Partitions are my favs. I would also try to keep shots under 100 yards.
thanks. that is what i am trying to access.
There's a guy on another forum that has a thread, several pages long, of his exploits with the 70 grain TSXs on hogs.
After seeing his photos, and others, I'm a big believer in the effectiveness of the heavy TSX bullets taking the .223 to another level in hunting.
I'd post a link, but I'm kinda new here and I don't know if linking to another forum is ok or not.
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After seeing his photos, and others, I'm a big believer in the effectiveness of the heavy TSX bullets taking the .223 to another level in hunting.
I'd post a link, but I'm kinda new here and I don't know if linking to another forum is ok or not.
Sent from my Galaxy S2
Indiana has some weird laws about what's deer legal. I used 223 for hogs and large coyote. I wouldn't consider anything we have around here "large game" when I think of that its mainly bears or elk
I will agree that it's just the right bullet in the right spot and you're money. Years back I went a few years with only hunting with archery gear. I then got back into the rifles for pig hunting in TX. One morning I had a 120ish pound boar come out into the sendero at 80 or so yards. I put the eotech on his ear for the shot.....then slowly watched as my archery minded brain told my body to move the sight to behind his shoulder. I took the shot and pig dropped in his tracks. .223 bonded bullet went behind on side shoulder, broke off side shoulder and came to rest in perfect mushroom under off side hide. Bullet performance was great even though I had no conscious intentions of shooting pig behind the shoulder instead of head shot. I still can remember telling myself to stop aiming behind the shoulder but my head was still so wrapped around bowhunting that it must have been very strongly ingrained......not sure if I stayed in topic there, but sometimes I digress.
I've never taken a deer with a 223 Remington but I have with a 222 Remington and a 204 Ruger at about 80 and 252 yards respectively. My .224 caliber bullet of choice is the Speer 70 gr. Semi-Spitzer and in the 204 Ruger I use Hornady 45 gr. Spire Points. I've also taken deer with a 22-250 but that has a bit more ooomph than a 223 Remington.
I dont hunt deer with any long gun other than a 16" ar in .223 or 6x45. I've killed well into the double digits with them without issue, and without wounding. I take shot placement very seriously though, and don't squeeze one off unless everything is perfect. Try 75g hornady TAP. To test a round, shoot through 4-5 milk jugs of water. Pick the bullet out and see if it did what you want. Make sure you pick one that goes through at least 2 jugs, and doubles in size.
I mainly hunt with a 1911 or Glock 23. If they do the job, a .223 definatly will.
I have to ask: Why would you want to? For hogs I sort of get it but for big game, why not use a more suitable weapon? If I saw someone hunting with an AK, I would have to ask...
An AK in the traditional 7.62, would be just as suitable as the millions of 30-30s being used for deer hunting across the nation.
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Sure but at four times the cost. I'm not arguing it--I am not one to give a shit what others want to do, just asking the question.
223 would not be allowed for hunting anything large than roe deer in Austria. Here, the distinction is made by the amount of energy the bullet has at a distance of 100m - for anything larger than deer (red deer, chamois, capricorn) you have to have 2300J@100m (a 223 has roughly half of that energy at that distance). For comparison, in hungary - from what i heard - you have to have a bullet diameter of 7mm or more to be allowed to hunt red deer (but they don't care too much). a similar law applies to slovakia ... in germany, i know very few that don't use 9.3mm to hunt boar ...
Howdy OP,
I posted this info on another forum but it applies here as well. Use of .223/5.56MM caliber on medium size game such as whitetail is dependent on marksmanship & bullet performance. Are there better calibers? Absolutely. But bullet technology has evolved to the point where the .223/5.56MM is acceptable at modest range. And that range is dependent on your marksmanship & the performance of the bullet you choose. The 70gr. TSX bullet I use is very long so it usually requires a 1x8 or faster twist to stabilize. Driven at 5.56MM pressure, it will expand reliably out to 300yds. even when fired from a 10" entry length barrel. Barnes tested the 70gr. TSX & found it to expand reliably in their water-shot tests down to 1800FPS while the other .224 TSX component bullets will expand down to 1900FPS. Below are several 70gr. TSX bullets fired at 5.56MM pressure into water to test expansion:
L-R: Unfired/fired from 10" barrel@10ft/10"@10ft./10"@100yds./24"@100yds (this last bullet shows extreme abrasion from rocky soil after overpenetration of water tank. All other bullets shown had 100% weight retention)
Barnes gel tests of their 5.56MM 70gr. TSX bullet (rehosted pdf file): http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_5.56_70gr_TAC-X.pdf
Been hunting deer with the AR15/M16 platform since the '70s. The years of piss-poor .223/5.56MM bullet performance are behind us and good riddance! At 240lbs. or so, this is the biggest whitetail I have taken so far with the TSX bullet: a 5.56MM pressure 70gr. TSX bullet fired from a 10" 1x7 twist barrel. The TSX bullet smashed thru the spine then exited at the top of the shoulder leaving a quarter sized exit hole.
I posted this info on another forum but it applies here as well. Use of .223/5.56MM caliber on medium size game such as whitetail is dependent on marksmanship & bullet performance. Are there better calibers? Absolutely. But bullet technology has evolved to the point where the .223/5.56MM is acceptable at modest range. And that range is dependent on your marksmanship & the performance of the bullet you choose. The 70gr. TSX bullet I use is very long so it usually requires a 1x8 or faster twist to stabilize. Driven at 5.56MM pressure, it will expand reliably out to 300yds. even when fired from a 10" entry length barrel. Barnes tested the 70gr. TSX & found it to expand reliably in their water-shot tests down to 1800FPS while the other .224 TSX component bullets will expand down to 1900FPS. Below are several 70gr. TSX bullets fired at 5.56MM pressure into water to test expansion:
L-R: Unfired/fired from 10" barrel@10ft/10"@10ft./10"@100yds./24"@100yds (this last bullet shows extreme abrasion from rocky soil after overpenetration of water tank. All other bullets shown had 100% weight retention)
Barnes gel tests of their 5.56MM 70gr. TSX bullet (rehosted pdf file): http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_5.56_70gr_TAC-X.pdf
Been hunting deer with the AR15/M16 platform since the '70s. The years of piss-poor .223/5.56MM bullet performance are behind us and good riddance! At 240lbs. or so, this is the biggest whitetail I have taken so far with the TSX bullet: a 5.56MM pressure 70gr. TSX bullet fired from a 10" 1x7 twist barrel. The TSX bullet smashed thru the spine then exited at the top of the shoulder leaving a quarter sized exit hole.
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how would you get a decent blood trail to follow up on a wounded animal (maybe with your hunting dog) with only a quarter sized exit hole?
sufficient exit hole (okay, one doesn't have to overdo it), and thus sufficient loss of blood (and thus a quick black-out) helps to reduce unnecessary pain. some also claim in improves the meat-quality as the animal is subject to less stress, or shorter amounts of time of it.
sufficient exit hole (okay, one doesn't have to overdo it), and thus sufficient loss of blood (and thus a quick black-out) helps to reduce unnecessary pain. some also claim in improves the meat-quality as the animal is subject to less stress, or shorter amounts of time of it.
That is a very relevant concern addressed on another forum but applies here as well.
One thing I should clarify about my choices of .223/5.56MM bullets: I mostly hunt whitetail over in Mississippi near extremely thick bedding areas. I REQUIRE all hunting loads to yield an exit hole so I can blood-trail the animal into these areas if & when it becomes necessary. The entrance wound of the .223/5.56MM is normally very small & may not yield an identifiable blood trail. My standard is no exit wound on a broadside shot taken at appropriate range=FAIL for my purposes. Even the proven design of the 60gr. Nosler Partition has failed me which was a big let down. So is my requirement unobtainable with .223/5.56MM? Apparently not as no .223/5.56MM TSX load has failed me yet. But I do prefer a 5.56MM pressure loadings simply because I want to stack the odds in my favor by taking advantage of all available terminal performance.
The entrance wound of a .223/5.56MM is usually so small it may not yield any discernible blood trail at all. Without an exit wound to blood trail, you can easily loose an animal. I require an exit wound. And a quarter sized exit wound thru the vitals will leave a very nice blood trail.
5.56MM entrance wound:
One thing I should clarify about my choices of .223/5.56MM bullets: I mostly hunt whitetail over in Mississippi near extremely thick bedding areas. I REQUIRE all hunting loads to yield an exit hole so I can blood-trail the animal into these areas if & when it becomes necessary. The entrance wound of the .223/5.56MM is normally very small & may not yield an identifiable blood trail. My standard is no exit wound on a broadside shot taken at appropriate range=FAIL for my purposes. Even the proven design of the 60gr. Nosler Partition has failed me which was a big let down. So is my requirement unobtainable with .223/5.56MM? Apparently not as no .223/5.56MM TSX load has failed me yet. But I do prefer a 5.56MM pressure loadings simply because I want to stack the odds in my favor by taking advantage of all available terminal performance.
The entrance wound of a .223/5.56MM is usually so small it may not yield any discernible blood trail at all. Without an exit wound to blood trail, you can easily loose an animal. I require an exit wound. And a quarter sized exit wound thru the vitals will leave a very nice blood trail.
5.56MM entrance wound:
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appreciate the hands on info from people. in answer to some of the unsolicited questions re my info quest,i will say thus. i know 223 isn't a first choice. i don't hunt much at all and retirement income is not conducive to having 2K in a rig that gets used once every year,maybe. so,the question comes about using my paper guns for an occasional hunt and yielding clean kills. it's an open question in my mind at this point. on that subject i just have to say that bow hunting,from what i have seen (when bow hunters i know are being honest) their recovery to lost ratio is about 1:1. totally unacceptable and i bet way lower than 223 recovery ratios re WT deer. in my experience the same can be said for buckshot-instant kills or lost game. i also tend to be in areas that contain a lot of thick stuff. granted,i may only know shitty hunters/marksmen but...posting questions here is always a crap shoot. you get some good input and some kibitzing lecturing from others that want to not answer the question asked and pontificate as to why someone would ask the question. looking for direct experience input and appreciate the germane replies.
I lost one of the best muley bucks I ever had the opportunity to take ,with a failure from a 60 gr SP from a .223 Rem. This WAS 30 years back. Had I been shooting one of the current Barnes or even a NP I would have probably done fine.
I had the slug simply blow up on the outside, never made it into the chest cavity at all. Thankfully half an hour after the shot another hunter saw the buck and harvested him. I came upon him and from the wound, saw it was the one I had hit.
Because of THAT failure I stopped using .224" for anything larger than coyotes.
But have to say...prior to that incident I shot a LOT of deer here in MT with 64 gr WW SP's and either my .223 Sako or Rem 700 in .22-250. Never an issue. They all dropped like magic.
I think that todays Premium bullets are simply so good ,that the traditional ideas of what caliber and weight is "appropriate" for various big game animals may need a bit of a rethink.
FN in MT
I had the slug simply blow up on the outside, never made it into the chest cavity at all. Thankfully half an hour after the shot another hunter saw the buck and harvested him. I came upon him and from the wound, saw it was the one I had hit.
Because of THAT failure I stopped using .224" for anything larger than coyotes.
But have to say...prior to that incident I shot a LOT of deer here in MT with 64 gr WW SP's and either my .223 Sako or Rem 700 in .22-250. Never an issue. They all dropped like magic.
I think that todays Premium bullets are simply so good ,that the traditional ideas of what caliber and weight is "appropriate" for various big game animals may need a bit of a rethink.
FN in MT
I killed around 400 pigs last year ,and a bunch of deer on permit all with 223s .... 75GR BTHP moving about 2700 fps .Don't get any faster than that ,and your gtg. I parked the 308 for my super secret night ops missions .lol
Guys,
The expansion mechanism of the TSX bullet is usually not fully understood until you look at both the gel testing & the TSX expansion demo video made by Barnes. The gel shots linked above & below show a huge increase in wound cavity at 4-6 inches penetration. And the demo video Barnes made of the expansion mechanism shows why we see this. The spent bullets I show above look very nice at 0.46" to 0.48" across the petals. But the video demonstrates that the TSX bullet expands to much larger diameter while the petals are folding back to their terminal position. That is what makes this bullet a game-changer for .223/5.56MM use on medium game. And it is also the reason I intend to use the TSX/TTSX bullet design in 30-06 for larger game such as elk. Take a look.
Barnes gel tests of their 5.56MM 70gr. TSX bullet (rehosted pdf file): http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_5.56_70gr_TAC-X.pdf
Barnes TSX expansion mechanism demo video: TSX - One Of The Deadliest, Most Dependable Bullets | Barnes Bullets
The expansion mechanism of the TSX bullet is usually not fully understood until you look at both the gel testing & the TSX expansion demo video made by Barnes. The gel shots linked above & below show a huge increase in wound cavity at 4-6 inches penetration. And the demo video Barnes made of the expansion mechanism shows why we see this. The spent bullets I show above look very nice at 0.46" to 0.48" across the petals. But the video demonstrates that the TSX bullet expands to much larger diameter while the petals are folding back to their terminal position. That is what makes this bullet a game-changer for .223/5.56MM use on medium game. And it is also the reason I intend to use the TSX/TTSX bullet design in 30-06 for larger game such as elk. Take a look.
Barnes gel tests of their 5.56MM 70gr. TSX bullet (rehosted pdf file): http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_5.56_70gr_TAC-X.pdf
Barnes TSX expansion mechanism demo video: TSX - One Of The Deadliest, Most Dependable Bullets | Barnes Bullets
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i don't see anything special in the expansion mechanism ... take a piece of paper, flat in front of you. fold it once. done. sure ... in the beginning and at the end it's flat, in between there is a large cross-section. -> so when the petals fold back ... sure the cross-section becomes larger than what it might look like at the end (see the paper example) but the same can be expected from most bullets which "fold back" upon impact and don't just disintegrate.
I am not aware of any other .223/5.56MM bullet(s) that "fold back". But one thing I have learned is that there is always something new coming out. Show us the .223/5.56MM bullet(s) which you are referring to.
hornady: gmx superperformance in 223 - seems to be similar to the way the ballistic tip and accubond works. lead core, with the jacket folding back
federal: fusion bonded 223 - probably similar to an accubond (don't take my word for that)
pics from the 223 fusion bonded. folding visible.
federal: soft point 223 - doesn't look bad either
federal: fusion bonded 223 - probably similar to an accubond (don't take my word for that)
pics from the 223 fusion bonded. folding visible.
federal: soft point 223 - doesn't look bad either
The lead core bullets show typical "mushroom" expansion as impact forces the lead core to flow backward over the jacket. As you put it, the front end of the TSX "folds back" over the rear portion allowing the sharp petals to cut thru whatever they encounter. Reminds me of the hunting broadheads that have enclosed blades that extend on impact. Now the GMX may be a different story. Does Hornady have an expansion demo or other data showing the front of the GMX bullet folding back similar to the TSX?
Accurately place a quality bullet in the engine room at normal hunting ranges and leave all the debaters to debating. I am firm believer and have witnessed its all about placing a quality bullet where it needs to be and that usually means more accurate shots come from a light weight rig in a less horsepower cartridge. If its legal, the 223 will be work just fine if a quality bullet is placed in the engine room at normal hunting ranges, it has and will continue to tip over 250-350# caribou at around 200 yards.
thanks. from what i have heard inuit used to kill caribou (at rather short ranges) with a 25-20
