What is the reason for this flyer?

[Cossack]

I'm working on developing a load using a 175gr SMK for SPS tactical. Bullets came in the mail today so not wasting any time loaded up some rounds and off to the range I went.
Here are the details:

New Lapua brass, full length sized
COAL 2.8 in
Remington primer
Varget powder 44 gr 44.5 gr and 45 gr

CFE223 powder 46.5 gr 47 gr and 47.5 gr

Here is a picture of the groups at 100 yards. (Far left and center columns, far right is a 223)



I guess my question is why did I get such an extreme flyer out of 47.5 gr CFE223 charge? First to shots are touching, velocity on them was 2756 and 2758 fps, but the third shot was way out and velocity on it was 2779. So obviously something was wrong. Ether the powder charge was a bit more then the other two (sight...) or something else.
After seeing that kind of test group from first 3 rounds would you load 5 more with a different primer just to see what it would do? The velocity on that 175 grainer is smoking fast for a 308 with a 20 inch barrel, which is great, especially if that load will shoot consistent 3/4 MOA. The primmer did crater slightly, but no other sings of pressure, edge of the primer still nice and round, bolt not sticky, and brass extracted nice and easy.
On the other hand I'm very happy with 45 grain Varget charge. Group measured ~0.3 or there about. Velocity on first round was 2698, but the other two rounds chronograph decided not to read. I'm gonna load 10 more of those for this weekend to see how three 3 round groups will shot, hopefully chrony will cooperate.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Breathing? Who really knows? Try shooting two 5 shot groups and see what you see.

Chris

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Different primer? No. Load that one up again and see if it does same again. With the results from 45gr of Varget I don't know why you feel you need to do anything except find some Varget and get to crankin out some ammo. MAYBE your rifle doesn't like CFE223 with a 175SMK. Your 223 seems to like it fine. If you are trying to get one powder to perform equally well in a 223 and a 308 maybe try Varget in your 223.

 

[rjacobs]

What kind of gun? If a gas gun, try loading an extra round in the mag as they tend to recoil a bit differently when the bcg locks back.

 

[JGorski]

Well, since you're working on the fringe of max, maybe over a bit with the Lapua brass you might need to back off a bit and stay with 47grs, The velocity difference is probably why it went low. Hodgdon is using Win brass for the 308 loads.

 

[JGorski]

Different primer? No. Load that one up again and see if it does same again. With the results from 45gr of Varget I don't know why you feel you need to do anything except find some Varget and get to crankin out some ammo. MAYBE your rifle doesn't like CFE223 with a 175SMK. Your 223 seems to like it fine. If you are trying to get one powder to perform equally well in a 223 and a 308 maybe try Varget in your 223.

OK, CFE is the powder then.

 

[leadbullet]

do you take your head off the stock between shots?? do you follow through??
just trying to help.

 

[Cossack]

Rifle is Remington 700 sps tactical with a 20 inch barrel. I know this sounds arrogant, but I'm not responsible for the flyer, cross hairs where dead center in that black box when the trigger broke.
I guess I'll load up 6 rounds and see if the group repeats it's self.
Thanks for the help.

 

[dustinoif3]

Yeah good luck. From the pic it seems like the cfe is performing okay. I've got the same rifle you do but cfe was very finicky with my 175's. I had one node that i could get holes touching but if i went .3 above or below it would scatter. It did great with 168's and in my 223 stuff. I ended up switching to varget for the heavy bullets. My sweet spot was 44.5 in bh brass.

 

[Cossack]

dustin what kind of velocity you getting with 44.5 gr Varget?

 

[dustinoif3]

I chrono'd at 2581 average. I didn't chrono the cfe because I had already wasted 35 rounds trying to find a good charge. My 168's with cfe averaged 2653. I run 48gr and bh brass as well. I was really thinking the 175's and varget would be faster. Hopefully next weekend ill be able to tee off at 1000. Hopefully they make it tip first. Hahahaha. Theyve shot great out to 300 though.

 

[Cossack]

Mine wasn't that far off, average at 78 degrees was 2632 for 44.5. I'm gonna keep CFE for my 223 rifles and varget for 308. CFE also did same kind of groups using 168gr berger VLDs. Looks like this rifle likes Varget the best.
I'm gona start working up DOPE for 175s this weekend, will be shooting out to 400. Kind of sucks after I had done all that work for this chart here click

 

[ZombieSlayer]

I'd load 10 @ 47.3, 47.5 and 47.7. Shoot all 10 at the same target and see what results you really have. Did you jump from 45 to 46.5 or test thru there as well? Might be worth doing the same @ 44.8, 45, 45.2. Might even be worth creeping up to 45.4 if you didn't test between 45 and 46.5 Then call it a day.

The other thing I like to look for is point of impact shift. Yes, I'm looking for a load that shoots accurately by itself but I'm after one that doesn't have the point of impact shifting too much when compared to the loads above or below as well. Do all your testing on a single target without adjusting the sights. I prefer to also before the start of testing give the elevation turret a few clicks to put the POI a couple inches off my point of aim which is a cross drawn on paper or use a printed target that's already got horizontal and vertical lines on it. Doing this gives the same aim point without previous shots obstructing the view and removes any likelihood you'll make small adjustments in your point of aim to make the results appear better by trying to pre-empt where you think the next one will hit. A large irregular box scribbled on the paper is not the best to use for a point of aim if your shooting for groups.




The reason could be too many things, without seeing the shot being made, who knows. Could of even been a slightly dud primer. Velocity mighta come out the same, but your barrel time and harmonics could of been different throwing the impact out. Who really knows. Just take what you can from your initial testing and move forward.

 

[Sendf1]

Am I the only one but I keep trying to read Cossack's posts but get distracted by his avatar........

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Three round groups are fine for quickly eliminating loads that have no potential. On the other hand, the fliers are such that I would not evaluate these results as some kind of variation in your load. You say that you shoot lights out, so.... I might look for scope problems, mounting, etc. or bedding problems, loose action screws, eliminate the mechanical variables before assuming it must be something to do with how much powder is in the case. As the bench shooters have shown, thrown charges shoot tiny groups, and bullets really aren't responsible for a wide flier, unless. Maybe you have concentricity problems? Maybe your bullets have damage, but that should be visible? Damage can be on the meplat OR the base. Did you drop them, per chance? Just trying to think of everything.

What I am saying is, your results are not logical. It is seldom you find a powder, (alone) as being responsible for groups touching, on the one hand and the third bullet an inch or more away from the other two. Powders are not that inconsistent, usually. Not until you make a big error on weight. You have to establish that your powder measure is consistent, and your technique is repeatable. If you are metering carefully, the powder charge will not throw a bullet off to the side. Difference in elevation, maybe, but not usually 2" away, at 5 o'clock. Not powder charge.

Assuming everything is tight, and switching scopes changes nothing, then it might be best to quit when you are ahead and pursue the best group, (Varget, 45gr.) until you get some kind of aggregate you can live with. In other words, three rounds can get you to first base but 5 round groups are the gold standard.

So, no rush, no pressure, take it easy, evaluate and build on results. Good luck. BB

 

[Cossack]

Thanks for the help Boss, very informative post. I'm gonna take base and rings off, make sure everything is clean, apply some blue locktite and reinstall my scope. Other thing to note is that 5 groups with CFE and Varget had a "flyer". Two shots are kind of close and the third is off by it's self.
I'll try and keep this thread going, hopefully will have some time to spend at the range this weekend to test more.

 

[Cossack]

Am I the only one but I keep trying to read Cossack's posts but get distracted by his avatar........

hahaha first time I saw it I spent 20 minutes just staring at those, like in a trans or something.

 

[sniperdude]

maybe it was the avatar , distracting you that caused the flyer

sure is distracting me

the 45 grains might be the sweet spot , I would shoot a couple more of those

 

[former naval person]

Load and shoot 10 round groups. 3 rounds aren't statistically valid. Your rifle may not like the bullets as presented.

 

[varmint slayer]

What scope are you running? Where was the POA on the center targets? With no black box or something to focus on its tough to make tiny little groups. Is the parallax adjusted out in the scope?

 

[Desert Fox]

Operator error. Looks like cheek placement on the last shot changed. It could be trigger pull also.

 

[Hound]

I think u said you are shooting a Savage? check the screw right in front of the trigger guard, I have two savage and they both worked loose till i put loc-tite on them.

 

[Fuzzball]

"I guess my question is why did I get such an extreme flyer out of 47.5 gr CFE223 charge? "

Maybe one of your sling swivels popped loose.

 

[Cossack]

Thanks for the input fellas. Never did load more ammo with CFE. Going to keep it as is, varget for 308 and CFE for 223. Shot quite a few 175 SMKs with 45 gr varget now and starting to get good results. Looks like this rifle doesn't like to shoot small groups until at least 20 rounds have been sent down the barrel.
As fars as swivels, rings, mounts and scope goes. Swivel is in place as far as I can tell. Couple days ago took the mount, rings and scope off the rifle. Cleaned everything truly, reapplied blue locktite and torqued everything down. Tomorrow going to the range to shoot IDPA and will try to squeeze few rounds of 308 for a group and put some on steel at 400 yards, so look for my post with the results.

 

[Cossack]

Had a great day at the range today. Got to shoot 308 out to 390 yards and did well at the IDPA match. With 308 fired two 5 shot groups both right under 3/4 inches at a 100, it is very satisfying to see all your hard work paying off. Looked at my charts, dial in 7.5 MOA for 390 yards, very little to no wind so left the windage turret alone. Settle in behind a rifle, got the crosshairs steady on a 8 inch plate, fire, see the plate swinging and a moment later satisfying "ding". Also nailed a head shot on a silhouette (6x6 square) at the same distance. After all that had to pack up and go to the pistol range because it was time to help guys set up for the IDPA.