Reticle Moves Predictably w/ Breathing in Prone

[woojos]

I assume some movement is normal is extreme ranges, but my reticle is moving about .5" horizontally back and forth on a target 100 yards in the prone position.

I've been practicing my fundamentals and with natural point of aim and releasing at the bottom of the breathing cycle, I'm getting relatively good at maintaining a constant POI. I still have some work to do I think before I'm capable of driving the rifle to its full potential.

I'm still thinking this movement is a bit too much. Part of the problem may be the muscularity of my belly, but I'm trying to figure out if I should start playing with my rifle configuration, i.e. length of pull, cheek riser setting, and bipod height, to try and minimize it a bit.

Maybe I'm just over looking something all together.

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

 

[McCrazy]

If you are a "thicker" fellow and your stomach is pushing against the ground while you breathe you can try this: Instead of laying in the prone with your legs generally straight out behind you, bend the knee of your shooting side leg 90° and move your leg outwards at a 45° angle. Your heel should be somewhere near your non-firing side legs' knee. This will rotate your hip upwards on your firing side and allow a gap for your stomach to expand and contract without pushing against the ground so much.

Also, make sure you are adjusting the parallax on your scope to match the distance you are firing from. The breathing may not be disturbing the lay of the rifle but may be moving your head enough that the reticle displacement you are seeing is actually a parallax error.

 

[SPAK]

Matt, let's get out to the range again and shoot some...I can take some pictures of your position.....maybe you're "muscling the rifle" and not relaxing....

 

[ShtrRdy]

When I'm in the prone shooting position, I have the crosshair moving vertically when I breath.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I assume some movement is normal is extreme ranges, but my reticle is moving about .5" horizontally back and forth on a target 100 yards in the prone position.

I've been practicing my fundamentals and with natural point of aim and releasing at the bottom of the breathing cycle, I'm getting relatively good at maintaining a constant POI. I still have some work to do I think before I'm capable of driving the rifle to its full potential.

I'm still thinking this movement is a bit too much. Part of the problem may be the muscularity of my belly, but I'm trying to figure out if I should start playing with my rifle configuration, i.e. length of pull, cheek riser setting, and bipod height, to try and minimize it a bit.

Maybe I'm just over looking something all together.

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

The idea is to transmit the stability of the ground into your position through bone/artificial support. Although you are somewhat knowledgeable of this concept you cannot bring it to fruition since the artificial support you are using dulls the senses of a natural point of aim and the adjustment of it. Try shooting from bone support alone. With bone alone you will have a better understanding when you have properly adjusted NPA, feeling when there is an absence of muscular tension, now masked with the use of artificial support. Once you learn to properly build a position from bone alone you will be abile to relax into the artificial support recognizing when you have support, muscular relaxation, and NPA.

 

[Graham]

There's no need to learn a new and different shooting discipline to solve a common minor problem.

You are muscling the rifle. Square your shoulders and don't push on the rifle with either shoulder.

If that doesn't work, double the amount of back pressure you are using the hold the rifle into the shoulder.

 

[woojos]

Thanks for the replies. It's more of a diagonal shift with breathing with equal horizontal and vertical components.

One thing I have an inconsistency with is how much support to use on the non trigger arm/elbow. I think this may require some changes to my rig as I tend to have to reach my neck a bit forward to get a good sight picture. This forces me to prop myself up a bit more and use more muscle on the support side to maintain the position. I still try to relax but I'm thinking I may need to slide the scope back a little.

 

[Graham]

Reticle Moves Predictably w/ Breathing in Prone

Don't crane your neck. Your cheek should rest comfortably on the cheek piece. You should be able to lay there for hours without neck strain. Don't crawl the stock, first set your length of pull, then adjust the scope in the rings, then the cheek piece.


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[woojos]

Don't crane your neck. Your cheek should rest comfortably on the cheek piece. You should be able to lay there for hours without neck strain. Don't crawl the stock, first set your length of pull, then adjust the scope in the rings, then the cheek piece.


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I put a new stock on it but didn't change anything else. The LOP is longer than the previous. Didn't occur to me until now. Thanks for kicking the mind into gear.

 

[bodywerks]

Are you sure its not just parallax?

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Woojos,

I think you may have a bad rear rest position. One of the biggest things for me was using my off trigger hand, balled into a fist, to support the rear of the rifle. This requires a low bipod and a good recoil pad. The lower you are, the better rear support you can provide with your hand and the ground. The support to the rear of the rifle can be adjusted with your fingers, whether you use all of your hand, some fingers splayed out a bit, anything to get the rear of the rifle to stop moving when you breath. When I changed to this method, my breathing movement stopped completely.

Here is a GREAT page for reference: Shooting Voodoo :: Field Expedient Shooting Techniques

The section that you want to review is "No Rear Bag?". As you can see, he uses either his flat hand or a balled fist to perfect the proper level to the rear of the rifle. This will surely remove your issues.

Also, review this video, a teaser from Magpul: USMC Fundamentals long range shooting intruction by Caylen Wojcik - YouTube

There, they reference natural point of aim and loading the bi-pod, among other things.

The issue you have is minor and can be fixed with only subtle changes. Good luck and good shooting!

 

[bigbore74]

x2 on Parallax??

Are you sure its not just parallax?

PCR/XLR/TAC338 http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111453_255_zps1b498f0d.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/bodywerks/IMG_20130816_111325_951_zps290ebdd0.jpg

 

[SPAK]

I put a new stock on it but didn't change anything else. The LOP is longer than the previous. Didn't occur to me until now. Thanks for kicking the mind into gear.

I would definitely set the rifle up again so it fits you and your scope is set right so you're not pushing forward to get your sight picture...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP

As I earlier said, try building your position with bone alone. With bone alone you will easily come to understand how to integrate the elements of a steady position; thereafter, when supplementing the position with any artificial support, you will be able to better discern any engagement of muscle which would undermine steadiness. Although you can certainly build a steady position without learning how to do it first with bone alone, bone alone will highlight the significance of muscular relaxation, making you more mindful of it when using artificial supports. Right now, you are simply not conscious of the muscle you are using to control the rifle, as the artificial supports are dulling your sense of it, or you have been made to perceive that some muscle needs to be used to get the desired sight picture. As it is, no matter what brought it about, you are steering with some muscle to get the desired sight picture and the results are less than what is possible when muscular relaxation is achieved. BTW, I think muscular relaxation is the most important element of a steady position. I attribute earning my High Master Long Range Rating to my understanding for it more than anything else I know to be important to good shooting.

 

[Graham]

Reticle Moves Predictably w/ Breathing in Prone

you are steering with some muscle to get the desired sight picture and the results are less than what is possible when muscular relaxation is achieved

Epiphany! I wish I had said that seven posts ago.... Oh, wait a minute: I was more specific.

And I attribute my continuing respirational ability to randomness and blind luck, but I will not attempt to school you in either one.

 

[woojos]

I'm pretty sure it's not parallax.

I'm going to the range tomorrow with Frogman and he should be able to coach me on position and if I'm tense at all. We'll probably end up refitting the rifle.

I'm also shooting off a red tac rear bag. It's a bit fat compared to some of the other ones out there and I have a hard time using my hand to support the stock and bag instead of just the bag. I'm picking up a smaller rear bag next time I decide to buy something.

Thanks for help all.

 

[woojos]

OP

As I earlier said, try building your position with bone alone. With bone alone you will easily come to understand how to integrate the elements of a steady position; thereafter, when supplementing the position with any artificial support, you will be able to better discern any engagement of muscle which would undermine steadiness. Although you can certainly build a steady position without learning how to do it first with bone alone, bone alone will highlight the significance of muscular relaxation, making you more mindful of it when using artificial supports. Right now, you are simply not conscious of the muscle you are using to control the rifle, as the artificial supports are dulling your sense of it, or you have been made to perceive that some muscle needs to be used to get the desired sight picture. As it is, no matter what brought it about, you are steering with some muscle to get the desired sight picture and the results are less than what is possible when muscular relaxation is achieved. BTW, I think muscular relaxation is the most important element of a steady position. I attribute earning my High Master Long Range Rating to my understanding for it more than anything else I know to be important to good shooting.

This is it and helped a lot. Thank you!

I still need to work on it. A lot of the time I realized, I was muscling my bag i.e. just trying to maintain a hard squeeze to maintain POA and it translated a lot of tension all the way up through my left arm, shoulder, and back. Today I was able to figure out how to set the bag where I want it and relax. It's still a challenge depending on target height and bipod height.

When I was shooting from the bench I had this about figured out, then I changed stocks and switched to prone, and pretty much had to start over. My groups are starting to come back down in prone, so I'll keep working it. I

 

[mark5pt56]

Excellent video, explained for people to understand.

Woojos,

I think you may have a bad rear rest position. One of the biggest things for me was using my off trigger hand, balled into a fist, to support the rear of the rifle. This requires a low bipod and a good recoil pad. The lower you are, the better rear support you can provide with your hand and the ground. The support to the rear of the rifle can be adjusted with your fingers, whether you use all of your hand, some fingers splayed out a bit, anything to get the rear of the rifle to stop moving when you breath. When I changed to this method, my breathing movement stopped completely.

Here is a GREAT page for reference: Shooting Voodoo :: Field Expedient Shooting Techniques

The section that you want to review is "No Rear Bag?". As you can see, he uses either his flat hand or a balled fist to perfect the proper level to the rear of the rifle. This will surely remove your issues.

Also, review this video, a teaser from Magpul: USMC Fundamentals long range shooting intruction by Caylen Wojcik - YouTube

There, they reference natural point of aim and loading the bi-pod, among other things.

The issue you have is minor and can be fixed with only subtle changes. Good luck and good shooting!