Caliber selection for 650yd steel matches

[TFin04]

Hi folks,

After some time off, I've decided to get back into long range shooting over the winter and into 2014. I have previously owned two Savage 10's, one in 223 and one in 308 that were great shooters but I ended up selling off due to lack of time to shoot them. I have some time opening up and would like to get back into this.

I'm working on a limited budget and will be buying another Savage 10 in whatever caliber I choose.

My uses for the rifle are as follows, listed from primary to less likely:
- Shooting paper at my local 200yd range near my house. Load development, etc. (at least monthly, prob twice/month)
- Shooting 650yd steel matches at a semi local range (monthly)
- Shooting at a 1000yd range (planning on making the trip 4-5 times per year)
- Shooting coyotes/varmints around local farms (prob 4-5 times per year)

I'd like the idea of being able to shoot deer and pigs with this same rifle, but the likelihood of me getting out to do that is probably pretty slim and I have other hunting rifles capable of those tasks. I would like to keep the barrel length under 22" for portability and weight, but I understand 243 and 260 like longer barrels.

I thought I had settled on 243 for its trajectory and low recoil (my wife is going to shoot this rifle too), but the barrel life is concerning.
260 is obviously very popular but I've never shot one and don't know much about recoil or barrel life
308 is probably more than I need for any of my uses and I'd like to avoid the recoil for my wife, but the barrel life is very nice
223 is something I already have a ton of ammo for (very little of it match, though), but I do have a Dillon 650 set up for it. I shoot AR's a lot and load for those, I could tweak some things and load for my bolt gun too.

I guess my main questions are in regards to barrel life on the 243 and 260, and if you have any opinions on caliber choice given the above info. Cost/availability for reloading components is obviously a factor but I don't think there is a huge spread among the calibers selected.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Lowlight]

The 6mm Creedmoor or 6.5 Creedmoor... ultimate competition rifles, especially for the tactical minded shooter doing a bit of everything.

Took the GAP Bravo 6 Delta out yesterday in the 20MPH wind and was repeatedly smacking the 1000 yard steel at Trigger Time using only 2 Mils of windage on the rifle. I let everyone in the class try it and every single shooter hit within 2 rounds, the majority of the class had never shot beyond 100 yards before.

I resisted the 6mm push from George @ GAP but after using it, I am totally convinced of its value in the competition world, among other places.

 

[bohem]

While I have nothing to disagree with on performance from Frank's perspective I think a 6mm BR, 6 Dasher type round would be better suited to your purposes than the 6CM. A 6.5C over a 260 absolutely due to ammo availability alone (super easy to load for and there's plenty of factory options from Hornady).

The only reason I have concern for the 6CM portion of Frank's suggestion is you commented on barrel life and I'm still not convinced that the 6CM is going to be drastically more than the 243 Winchester as some are want to proclaim. I've heard from several annecdotal sources that "if I get 2000rd I'll be happy".

I can tell you with utmost certainty that my 6.5CM barrels were:

4600rd (soft load) -22" barrel
3500rd (much hotter load, 1.6gr more powder in case) - 22.5" barrel

Currently I'm running a 23" barrel. It is very similar in wind to the 6's it just drops significantly more.

IE, twice the "I hope I get" life of the 6mm CM.

If I go specifically on your listed applications, I see no reason to go to the top end race calibers when a simple "cheater" (6.5CM) would do and if you want less recoil than the already "light" 6.5's a 6 BR will give you ample 1000yd performance and plenty of competition at 650yd matches unless you need to knock over the steel plates, then I'd absolutely advise going to the 6.5CM instead.


FWIW, I'm just waiting on my 6mm barrels to arrive from Hawk Hill Custom so that I can spin up a 6CM for next season, but I won't be tossing my 6.5, it makes for a plenty effective caliber in most cases and I will continue to hunt whitetails with it.

 

[mnhntr]

243,260, or 6.5CM would be my choice for your application. More likely the .243 if your serious about keeping the coyote hides for selling. .243 barrel life is a non issue.

 

[mnhntr]

While I have nothing to disagree with on performance from Frank's perspective I think a 6mm BR, 6 Dasher type round would be better suited to your purposes than the 6CM. A 6.5C over a 260 absolutely due to ammo availability alone (super easy to load for and there's plenty of factory options from Hornady).

The only reason I have concern for the 6CM portion of Frank's suggestion is you commented on barrel life and I'm still not convinced that the 6CM is going to be drastically more than the 243 Winchester as some are want to proclaim. I've heard from several annecdotal sources that "if I get 2000rd I'll be happy".

I can tell you with utmost certainty that my 6.5CM barrels were:

4600rd (soft load) -22" barrel
3500rd (much hotter load, 1.6gr more powder in case) - 22.5" barrel

Currently I'm running a 23" barrel. It is very similar in wind to the 6's it just drops significantly more.

IE, twice the "I hope I get" life of the 6mm CM.

If I go specifically on your listed applications, I see no reason to go to the top end race calibers when a simple "cheater" (6.5CM) would do and if you want less recoil than the already "light" 6.5's a 6 BR will give you ample 1000yd performance and plenty of competition at 650yd matches unless you need to knock over the steel plates, then I'd absolutely advise going to the 6.5CM instead.


FWIW, I'm just waiting on my 6mm barrels to arrive from Hawk Hill Custom so that I can spin up a 6CM for next season, but I won't be tossing my 6.5, it makes for a plenty effective caliber in most cases and I will continue to hunt whitetails with it.

I think the OP is buying a factory Savage and to the best of my knowledge none of them come in these calibers and they are not considered budget in any sense of the word.

 

[bohem]

I think the OP is buying a factory Savage and to the best of my knowledge none of them come in these calibers and they are not considered budget in any sense of the word.

If that's the case, then the 6.5CM is a home-run

Factory Savage Chambering in the 10's
Factory Hornady ammo is similar priced to match 308 these days
Far cheaper factory than 260 CorBon ammo
Excellent barrel life
Excellent competition, medium game, and "do all" caliber

 

[TFin04]

Great info, thanks guys.

Savage is what I know but if I can get similar results from a 700 (SPS maybe?) that isn't too big of a deal either. I'm hoping to build an MOA rifle and maybe a little better. My other 10's did that without much effort.

Mnhntr- What do you mean by non issue? Are you getting longer life than reported (2000rds) or are you saying just to suck it up and replace barrels? If I need to do that, the Savage is more attractive due to ease of barrel swaps.

I'll look at the 6.5 and the 243 a bit harder. What is the recoil like on 6.5? I have never shot it either.

 

[mnhntr]

For the amount of shooting you are doing barrel life is not that big a deal. Yes it is slightly less than a 308 but not like a 220 swift. I think for all the applications you talked about the 243 is what your looking for. I also shoot savages and although I had an issue with the latest one I will continue to shoot them. I have never owned another brand that was as accurate for an out of the box sub $1k rifle. I think they are the best value for the dollar. I have several and all of them with shoot .75in or less at 100yds 5 shots. The 6.5 is a great caliber and recoil is similar to the 260 or 7mm-08 but I would stick with the 243 for a wider range of ammo choices.

 

[bkw1911]

Ive got a 223ai I use for all the purposes you described. Its a 22" #5 contour 8tw, rem 700 in a manners t2 mini chassis. I shoot the 80gr amax around 2900fps and it rings the steel loud out to 700yds. Out to 650yds my wind holds are pretty close to my 6.5 Creedmoor. You can load ai rounds for matches and use standard 223 for varmints. Cost is cheap, I think 100 lapua 223 is around $50. Im still able to place in the top 3 at local matches with it and its very nice to get alot of practice in without breaking the bank. Drop at 1000yds is pretty near a 308.

 

[TFin04]

For the amount of shooting you are doing barrel life is not that big a deal. Yes it is slightly less than a 308 but not like a 220 swift. I think for all the applications you talked about the 243 is what your looking for. I also shoot savages and although I had an issue with the latest one I will continue to shoot them. I have never owned another brand that was as accurate for an out of the box sub $1k rifle. I think they are the best value for the dollar. I have several and all of them with shoot .75in or less at 100yds 5 shots. The 6.5 is a great caliber and recoil is similar to the 260 or 7mm-08 but I would stick with the 243 for a wider range of ammo choices.

Thanks. I am leaning toward the 243.

What projectiles are you having good luck with out of the factory Savage barrels? I'd like to be able to shoot the 100gr+ stuff if I can but the factory barrel is 1-10.

 

[Joop]

I have a Savage 10 Predator Hunter Max-1 in .243. The factory barrel is 1:9.25 twist and it stabilizes the 105 grain A-Max to at least 800 yards. Probably further, but that's as far as I've shot it, so far. It also does very well with the 87 grain V-Max, which is my pet load. If I were going to get a dedicated target/tactical style rifle in this category, I would probably go with the Model 12 LRP in .260 or 6.5CM. However, they're probably not the best "hunting" rifle (Long and heavy) and that's where the Predator Hunter is better suited, although it would have no problems with tac/target style shooting if the need arises, either.

 

[mnhntr]

I have a .223 and 2 .260rem, and a .308 but no .243. I will be getting a .243 for my kids. I have a buddy that shoots the 10 predator in 243 and shoots 105 and 107 grain bullets and it shoots great. I have the 10 predator in .260rem. and although it is not as great a shooter as the 12LRP with heavy bullets it shoots lights out with 123gr AMAX. I had a few issues when it was brand new but no longer. My .223 is a stevens 200 with a shilen barrel.

Thanks. I am leaning toward the 243.

What projectiles are you having good luck with out of the factory Savage barrels? I'd like to be able to shoot the 100gr+ stuff if I can but the factory barrel is 1-10.

 

[Night Eagle]

Hey lowlight, what wind value was that 20 mph wind, full value or half value?

And I'm curious what your mil hold over was at 1k yards also...

I've been interested in the differences between .308 and the 6 or 6.5 creedmore for some time and I've never seen the actual numbers


Thx in advance

 

[Lowlight]

If you go to the Gap Grind thread, I believe 14 of the Top 20 at that competition were shooting 6mm Creedmoor or something darn close... 14 of the Top 20 shooters. How's that for a sales pitch.

If you want barrel life, stick to a 308, if you're fine with 1/2 the life of a 308 use a 260 or 6.5CM, if you want to be competitive there is a trade off that means 1/2 again. 2k like most wind cheaters.

As far as my shots on Sunday, the picture is pretty clear, the rifle is pointed at the target the kestrel is pointing about 10 O'Clock off the direction of fire. I purposely got as close to the rifle as I could while still reading the wind, I could have easily pointed it up in the air and read 29MPHs instead I was about 1 ft off the ground and got 20MPHs

 

[TFin04]

Thanks for the help guys, I'm getting closer to figuring out what I need to buy. I have a couple Savage specific questions and rather than start a new thread I thought I'd start here:

- Is a 22" .243 barrel too short to be competitive to 650 yds? The Savage Predator Max rifle seems like a good compromise to me but everyone is recommending long tubes for 243. Part of me is thinking to just run hot powder to reach the needed velocities and deal with barrel burn out since I can swap them at home.

- Is the Accustock worth a shit? I can get a Rem 700 SPS Varmint in a B&C stock for about $100 more.

 

[DeadNoise]

6.5 or 260 def has my vote, been shooting a GAP Crusader in 308 and recently got a 6.5 myself and my buddy got a 260 at the same time and im fully impressed with both.

 

[jtrax]

While I have nothing to disagree with on performance from Frank's perspective I think a 6mm BR, 6 Dasher type round would be better suited to your purposes than the 6CM. A 6.5C over a 260 absolutely due to ammo availability alone (super easy to load for and there's plenty of factory options from Hornady).

The only reason I have concern for the 6CM portion of Frank's suggestion is you commented on barrel life and I'm still not convinced that the 6CM is going to be drastically more than the 243 Winchester as some are want to proclaim. I've heard from several annecdotal sources that "if I get 2000rd I'll be happy".

I can tell you with utmost certainty that my 6.5CM barrels were:

4600rd (soft load) -22" barrel
3500rd (much hotter load, 1.6gr more powder in case) - 22.5" barrel

Currently I'm running a 23" barrel. It is very similar in wind to the 6's it just drops significantly more.

IE, twice the "I hope I get" life of the 6mm CM.

If I go specifically on your listed applications, I see no reason to go to the top end race calibers when a simple "cheater" (6.5CM) would do and if you want less recoil than the already "light" 6.5's a 6 BR will give you ample 1000yd performance and plenty of competition at 650yd matches unless you need to knock over the steel plates, then I'd absolutely advise going to the 6.5CM instead.


FWIW, I'm just waiting on my 6mm barrels to arrive from Hawk Hill Custom so that I can spin up a 6CM for next season, but I won't be tossing my 6.5, it makes for a plenty effective caliber in most cases and I will continue to hunt whitetails with it.

If limited to factory Savage then go with 6.5 Creedmoor. I shoot mine multiple x's weekly out to 1,000. Although I have higher performance calibers than the 6.5 CM, it is amazing what the cartridge is capable of at only moderate velocity. For years I enjoyed shooting my .308's...but now the Creemoor is my go to and I rarely shoot my .308 these days.

If the OP is not limited to factory Savage chamberings then I would highly suggest either the 6BR or 6BRX. Along with the 6PPC, the BR and BRX are two of the most accurate 6mm chamberings on the planet.

 

[mnhntr]

Thanks for the help guys, I'm getting closer to figuring out what I need to buy. I have a couple Savage specific questions and rather than start a new thread I thought I'd start here:

- Is a 22" .243 barrel too short to be competitive to 650 yds? The Savage Predator Max rifle seems like a good compromise to me but everyone is recommending long tubes for 243. Part of me is thinking to just run hot powder to reach the needed velocities and deal with barrel burn out since I can swap them at home.

- Is the Accustock worth a shit? I can get a Rem 700 SPS Varmint in a B&C stock for about $100 more.

It is not too short for your application. If you were going to be shooting regularly at farther distances I would go longer. I think the accustock is ok, I am actually replacing mine with a manners, or HS precision in the near future. I know you will get a big fanboy divide on the Savage vs Remington debate. I think it is mostly personal preference and I prefer Savage. Look at the 10 predator in .243. It has a 24in fluted barrel, detachable mag, and accu-trigger.

 

[TFin04]

Thanks mnthntr. The quote I received from my dealer said the Predator Max has a 22" barrel, but Savage's website says 24." That gun has the accustock and would probably get me started. What is the process of swapping stocks down the road since the Predator has the proprietary Savage DBM? Would you have to go with something using AI mags or similar? Not against that, just curious.

My local matches will be limited to 3000fps. If that's the case, I'm wondering if 6.5 or 260 would be better so I don't have to dial down velocity. I like everything else about 243 (cost/availability/recoil/trajectory) but I want to be able to take full advantage of its trajectory benefits. Will 2900 fps get me there?

I think that's the last of my questions for now. You guys have been great, thanks for the help.

 

[Pusher591]

So you were standing when you took that reading ....... I know, I know the short jokes have gotten old but you made that too easy. For all the non-humorous people that's just a joke and Frank knows it.

In all seriousness, tha B6D is a BAMF!! I so desperately want one and wish I could have been at the Grind this year.

To the OP, the 6.5 Creed is a wonderful round and would do all of those things but someone mentioned the 223AI. If you already load for 223 just get some new dies and roll on. For the amount of shooting you are gonna be doing and if your wife is recoil sensitive that's a great caliber. 80 Amax's are great at AI speeds for just about everything you want to do.

 

[hahco]

- Is the Accustock worth a shit? I can get a Rem 700 SPS Varmint in a B&C stock for about $100 more.

not really, although it is somewhat better than the original tuppeware stocks. It is definitely more portable than the more dedicated target/tactical stocks, but that's where the "advantages" end. About the only options for stock replacement of this model are a Manners or McMillan. I sort of like the DBM on it, looks cheap but works well.

I've got one in .243. Have not shot it yet because I haven't decided what to do with it. I'm not really pleased with it as-is in the accustock. From what I have heard, they can be real tackdrivers.

 

[mnhntr]

Thanks mnthntr. The quote I received from my dealer said the Predator Max has a 22" barrel, but Savage's website says 24." That gun has the accustock and would probably get me started. What is the process of swapping stocks down the road since the Predator has the proprietary Savage DBM? Would you have to go with something using AI mags or similar? Not against that, just curious.

My local matches will be limited to 3000fps. If that's the case, I'm wondering if 6.5 or 260 would be better so I don't have to dial down velocity. I like everything else about 243 (cost/availability/recoil/trajectory) but I want to be able to take full advantage of its trajectory benefits. Will 2900 fps get me there?

I think that's the last of my questions for now. You guys have been great, thanks for the help.

If that is the limitations I would probally go with the 6.5CM or .260 rem. I have not owned a CM but I love both of my .260 rem. If you get one with an Accu-stock you will need to do a slight mod on a replacement stock to get it to fit due to the bolt release on the front of the trigger guard.

 

[Niles Coyote]

FWIW,

Myself and about 37ish shooters just finished a match two week ends ago at BWSA. The targets were steel, 3" to 8ish out to 650 yards. The match winner was shooting a 6.5 creedmoor but the vast of shooters were running 308 with three of us (making up team poodle, GO Team Poodle!!! LOL) running fast twist 223's, also a 6mm br case was found so some one had that and I think there may have been another 6 running that day. Must of us were newish comp shooters but I don't think anyone felt their caliber choice held them back...

 

[TFin04]

FWIW,

Myself and about 37ish shooters just finished a match two week ends ago at BWSA. The targets were steel, 3" to 8ish out to 650 yards. The match winner was shooting a 6.5 creedmoor but the vast of shooters were running 308 with three of us (making up team poodle, GO Team Poodle!!! LOL) running fast twist 223's, also a 6mm br case was found so some one had that and I think there may have been another 6 running that day. Must of us were newish comp shooters but I don't think anyone felt their caliber choice held them back...

BWSA is exactly where I plan to shoot (I'm near Ann Arbor). I'm trying to find something that can work there, kill yotes out back, shoot to 7-800 up at MTC and not break the bank. I know playing the compromise game isn't recommended but it is required at the moment.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I can tell you from experience that a 223 is a good yote gun to around 300 and with heavy weight high BC bullets you may get one or two hundred extra... They will still kill beyond that but the yote will be moving a ways unless you hit something real important like the spine or head. As a target gun its cheep to shoot and holds it own provided you reload bullets suitable for long range, factory ammo for long range not available. It can get a little tough to hear impacts beyond 700 if the wind isn't blowing right or others are shooting around you and impacts can be difficult to spot but you can have that with other calibers as well when you are looking at 6mm and 223 bullets. If 223 interests you, you will want a barrel with a twist in the 7-8 range and research the 223 AI (Ackley improved) as well.

My current 223 is lauching a 80 grain jlk at 2830fps out of a 21.75" 7 twist barrel, it requires less elevation than most loads from my 308's and is about dead even in the wind... it just lacks the authority on target the 308's have.

Personally, if I was going to be a one rifle guy and building it... I'd look closely at the 260 or other 6.5's They shoot flat, hit hard and are great in the field for yotes and large game as well as the competitive sports.

 

[Joop]

If you measure the barrel of the Predator Hunter in the same way that many manufacturers do, it's 24" from the rear of the chamber to the muzzle. From where the bullet seats, it's probably about 22". I have worked up two loads with the 105 A-Max (.243 Win). One using Varget at 2644 fps and the other with IMR4831 at 2720. You could probably go faster than that with the right powder. But, both of those loads are very capable at 800 yards.

I posted (or thought I did) about the Accustock, last night. Must have done something wrong, because I don't see the post. Anyway, I like the Accustock. It's a huge improvement over the "tupperware" stocks. However, it's certainly more of a hunting stock. If I were going to be doing a lot of target/competition shooting, I would definitely opt for something with ergonomics that were better suited to that type of shooting.

John