thinking about a red dot set up for my AR carbine. i know NOTHING about them. never used one. price is an object,so am looking at vortex and burris. had good luck with both brands normal scopes. probably want to put a magnifier with it. 1x with my eyes ain't pretty at 200 yd. also BUIS rear would be a big plus. have standard A2 FS post. any input,ideas or experiences?
Rifle Scopes "red dot" scope input please
- Thread starter mosin46
- Start date
The Burris MTAC 1-4 is a very popular daylight bright budget minded scope for 3-gun type shooting.
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an option on the list. have an MTAC 4 1/2-14 on my semi "match" and love it. so far the burris AR 332 is looking real good.
If price is a real problem you could always look at Primary Arms Red Dot sights. I picked on up for the last build I put together and for less than $100 for the sight and ring, I think it was a great value. If price isn't that big of an issue I don't think you can go wrong with the vortex line.
never heard of primary arms. that's why i asked the question here-good dope. they bear thinking about.
I have a Burris MTAC 1-4x and it is very nice. The illuminated reticle works as a red dot at 1x, but the up to 4x helps for longer range.
I put a Millett DMS 1-4x on a 15-22, and it works, but spend the money for the Burris or Vortex.
I have heard that some people don't particularily like the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x for 3 gun.
If you want a true red dot without magnification, Joe Bob's Outfitters has the Vortex Sparc on sale for $159 now, that is $40 off the normal price everyone has.
I have an Ultra Dot, Burris FastFireII (came with the MTAC in a package deal), a Bushnell TRS-32, a Meprolight, and a VERY old Aimpoint Mark III. I see minor differences in using them. Basically they are two types, tube and holo. Tube has a tube like a scope. They seem to be a bit faster to index on, as the eye seems to naturally fall in line behind the tube. The holo types need some other indexing to get your eye in the right place.
I put a Millett DMS 1-4x on a 15-22, and it works, but spend the money for the Burris or Vortex.
I have heard that some people don't particularily like the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x for 3 gun.
If you want a true red dot without magnification, Joe Bob's Outfitters has the Vortex Sparc on sale for $159 now, that is $40 off the normal price everyone has.
I have an Ultra Dot, Burris FastFireII (came with the MTAC in a package deal), a Bushnell TRS-32, a Meprolight, and a VERY old Aimpoint Mark III. I see minor differences in using them. Basically they are two types, tube and holo. Tube has a tube like a scope. They seem to be a bit faster to index on, as the eye seems to naturally fall in line behind the tube. The holo types need some other indexing to get your eye in the right place.
It didn't take me long to get used to an start liking a red dot mounted offset at the 1'oclock position. A lot of guys, including me, don't really fancy the flip magnifiers, too much weight and not the greatest sight picture. You could do a good quality, inexpensive 1-4x24 or 2-7x32 type primary scope and cant the rifle to the slightly to the side for super fast close stuff with a Sparc, Burris FF2 or 3, or Primary Arms type red dot. I don't have the best eyes and didn't like running the red dot solo, too limiting in range for me.
Here is my setup that I like pretty well for now (Vortex Viper 2-7x32 bdc w/ Trijicon RMR in Weaver 1'oclock mount)
Here is my setup that I like pretty well for now (Vortex Viper 2-7x32 bdc w/ Trijicon RMR in Weaver 1'oclock mount)
the mtac is a good choice. but from my 4-14 experience,there is no way i see to mount an mtac and a rear buis. the oculars are too big and moving the scope forward enough to give the buis room makes scope eye relief all wrong. looking at a FF2 for that reason. will check joe bob. he has some good sales.
G&G MAD is my favorite rear buis and it works with any Scopes I have. I have Eotech and Aimpoints with magnifiers but my fav setup is a 2.5 X 10scope and a canted red dot
If you are looking for a red dot only, there's Aimpoint, then everything else.
This x1000. I run an Aimpoint PRO on all my carbines. One of them has a Vortex 3x flip magnifier ... works as well as the Aimpoint magnifier for 1/3 the price.
If this weapon has a remote chance of seeing serious duty one day ... don't fuck around ... get an Aimpoint.
I went from an eotech to an aimpoint t1 2moa....night and day difference... I now have one on my AR and ak
I went from an eotech to an aimpoint t1 2moa....night and day difference... I now have one on my AR and ak
whats night and day? clarity? reticle?
clarity of the glass...with my t1 it is almost just like no glass its just dot...and accentual body of the aimpoint isnt as noticeable when shooting...the eotech I had had a bit to much glass I think and my reticel seamed a bit pixilated..but I did use it in afgahn and it has seen alot of wear and never shit the bed so both are dependable
i've personally been running this combo on my rifle,
Aimpoint Micro T1 2MOA Combo Aimpoint Micro T1 and Bobro B13-111-003 mount 200030BO
it's hard to go wrong with the aimpoint product line, they cost a little more, but batteries last for 10 years and i've yet to break one. the aimpoint line in general is a good way to go, specifically if your hard on equipment.
Aimpoint Micro T1 2MOA Combo Aimpoint Micro T1 and Bobro B13-111-003 mount 200030BO
it's hard to go wrong with the aimpoint product line, they cost a little more, but batteries last for 10 years and i've yet to break one. the aimpoint line in general is a good way to go, specifically if your hard on equipment.
thanks for all the replies
If your looking for a RED DOT sight here is what I recommend.
EoTech
Aimpoint
For the price
Vortex StrikeFire or SPARC
There are other good low cost RED DOT sights. If we can be of help let me know.
Mike @ CSTACTICAL
EoTech
Aimpoint
For the price
Vortex StrikeFire or SPARC
There are other good low cost RED DOT sights. If we can be of help let me know.
Mike @ CSTACTICAL
When it comes to red dots like a lot of things, You get what you pay for.
I've owned Eotechs and Aimpoints
There's pros and cons but not too many cons for the Aimpoints. The only reason I went with the Eotech PREVIOUSLY was the field of view through the window.
Aimpoints now have a battery life of over 50,000 hours of continuous runtime.
The Aimpoint PRO was made as a more affordable and Patrol Specific model.
If the M2's, M3's, and M4's are too big thay make the T-1s, and H-1's which are more compact. The difference between the T-1 and H-1 is that the T-1 is better waterproofed. if you're going on a combat diver mission get a T-1! LoL
The problems that frequently occur with the Eotechs are:
- The battery contact in the longer models tends to fail
- The Nitrogen filled compartment tends to loose its pressure and the Eotech has to be sent in for repair. The result is a dim to no reticle.
I just sold my EOTECH 557.4XFTS and when the buyer got it he said he couldn't see the reticle! So taking his word for it I refunded him his money after I received it and checked it out for myself. And sure as hell the reticle could barely be seen! So now I sent it to Eotech for refurbishment. Now I gotta sell it again! LoL
Another aspect to a red dot is the mount! QD mounts. When dismounting the red dot a QD mount will maintain the zero, PENDING MANUFACTURER. A twist tension type mount will most likely have to be re-zeroed every time unless you use a torque setting or mark it.
I only use Larue QD mounts as their customer service is awesome as well as their products.
Then there's Co-witeness... To save some typing I'll just post a link for ya
Any other questions about em dont hesitate to ask. Measure twice, shoot once
Here's some info I cut and pasted. Written by Jon Consiglio:
Red Dots - Proper Basic Use and the Reason for Co-Witnessing
Whether it's on the forums or in a training environment, there are a couple things I hear or see that need addressed so those running red dots, or considering purchasing them, can fully understand proper use and get the most out of their set up.
One of these things is people co-witnessing with their irons when firing their weapon. I've heard it mentioned before, but I never realized how common this was until I started paying attention to it. In my opinion, if you take the time to co-witness your irons with your optic every time, you have little more than a painted front sight that cost you hundreds of dollars.
The second thing is seen more than heard on the forums and it is one of the biggest issues I see with the speed of first round hits. What I've noticed many shooters doing is bringing the rifle into a firing position from a ready position, then taking the time to center the dot in the optic, most not even realizing they're doing so. This is counter productive and can slow you down considerably. To get to the bottom of the issue, we need to understand how a red dot works and what it is truly designed to do.
First, let's take a look at zeroing. Very simply, for me, I will co-witness the dot with the iron sights that are already zeroed. Keep in mind that a front sight post is typically 8 MOA and your Aimpoint will be 2 to 4 MOA and your EoTech will be 1 MOA.
See Image 2 below for a lower 1/3rd co-witness.
Once I've done this, I'll set my target at my desired zero range and fire five rounds. Usually I'll be very close and only need very minor corrections, if any.
I'll mention absolute co-witness and 1/3 co-witness quickly. All that an absolute co-witness means is that your irons will line up somewhere near the center of your optic, nothing more. Lower 1/3rd means they'll line up somewhere *in the lower 1/3rd.
This is not exact, but close. This also does not mean that you need to view your red dot in the center or lower 1/3rd at all times, it's just where the irons and red dot co-witness. Contrary to what some believe, co-witnessing with your irons will not be more accurate that using the red dot alone.
This leads me to my next point, which is that centering the dot will do almost nothing for accuracy and will quite likely slow you down. I've seen so many shooters, often LEO's that are somewhat new to red dots, that are showing only minimal improvement on first shot times from a ready position. When we try to figure out the reason, it usually comes down to them centering the dot in the optic.
From a low ready, for example, we should be bringing the rifle to a firing position and firing as soon as we catch a glimpse of the red dot covering the area we intend to shoot. This could mean that the red dot is in the top left corner of the optic, top and center, or to the right and center as I show in images 3, 4 and 5. Only when the shooter can grasp this idea will they show considerable improvements in first shot times.
This isn't so much about the benefits of a red dot as it is proper use, but just to mention a few - a red dot will allow you to focus on the target and not the front sight post or dot. It will be much easier to follow when firing multiple rounds and will also be much more visible in low light. I know very few shooters that cannot shoot faster with a red dot than they can with irons. In most cases, they're more accurate as well.
If I'm firing at 200 meters from the bench, of course I'll center the dot in the optic as I'm trying to be as consistent as possible with my cheek to stock weld and everything else for that matter. But, in most other situations, I'm just looking for a quick flash of the dot covering my intended target in the general area I want to shoot it.
Image 1 - The setup. Aimpoint M4s and KAC folding iron sights. 2" square about 10 feet away.
Image 2 - Lower 1/3rd co-witness. The only time I should see his is when I'm zeroing my rifle or doing a quick check to assure my irons and optic are still zeroed (or close). The reason the dot is slightly above the front sight post is I use a 6 o'clock hold with irons and I hold over the target with the dot.
Images 3, 4 and 5 - This is how we should view our dot most of the time. The rifle may have moved slightly between pics, but as you can see, the dot is still in the same general place on target regardless of where in the optic it is positioned. The irons and barrel are still in the same place, as is the optic. The only thing that has changed is our view or the red dot. The bullet will still impact the same place in all three pics below.
Image 6 - should our red dot fail or should we enter a brightly lit environment from a dark environment and not have time to adjust our optic, this is how we'll view our irons through the tube. There are other options like using the tube as the rear aperture or viewing the front sight post over the rear aperture, but we'll save that for another time.
Here's the proper sight picture with a lower 1/3rd set up with a T1 (rifle is a KAC sr15). Smaller window but same idea.
Well, that's about it. This was basically remedial red dot. I just wanted to have something like this posted with pics as I find myself explaining it nearly on a weekly basis. So now, I can just post a link. I didn't want to get into parallax just yet. Even though the Aimpoint is considered parallax-free, there is a small amount at close range.
Oh, keep in mind that when you are using a 3x magnifier with a 4 MOA red dot, the dot is still 4 MOA when viewed at 3x, the dot does become 3 times larger, but so does everything else, which means it still only covers roughly 4" at 100 yards.
I hope this at least gave someone a slightly better understanding of the benefits of a red dot. Done right, it should allow you faster first round hits as well as faster follow up shots, not to mention the benefits when in awkward shooting positions and when the heart is pumping at 180 because it's dark and scary and things are about to get wild.
EDIT - 16 September 2012
I had a Lightfighter/m4c member come in from Ohio to do some shooting this week. It was a perfect example of what I explained in my opening post.
We set up our targets at 7 to 10 yards with an 8" center of mass and an index card on the face. Starting at a relaxed/patrol ready and firing 3 rounds center mass and 2 to the head (index card), he was average 1.2 for the first round and 2.2 for the full drill. After noticing the delay from bringing the rifle to the shoulder and firing the first round, I figured he was searching for the dot or subconsciously trying to center it.
He had already reviewed the red dot post of mine on another forum and we talked about that. I showed him the two videos I took of him firing. He already knows this from numerous advanced classes, but I reminded him to focus on the target, bring the rifle to the shoulder and the dot through his line of sight to the target while continuing to focus on the target. I asked him to fire when there was a flash of the dot on the target.
He did this again, each time firing his first shot between .9 and .99 and the complete drill between 1.85 and just under 2 seconds. This might not sound like a huge difference, but we're talking a 25% improvement in one or two hour's time. We spent Wednesday afternoon and evening on the range as well as Thursday morning and afternoon.
My times were roughly .8 on average for the first round and averaged around 1.7 for the 5 rounds. Anything under 1 second for the first shot from a relaxed position and 2 seconds for the complete drill is good.
If we were starting from a "low ready", which has essentially become nothing more than a shouldered rifle with a view slightly over your optic, then good times should be closer to .8 or less for the first round and under 1.75 for the 5 rounds.
I've owned Eotechs and Aimpoints
There's pros and cons but not too many cons for the Aimpoints. The only reason I went with the Eotech PREVIOUSLY was the field of view through the window.
Aimpoints now have a battery life of over 50,000 hours of continuous runtime.
The Aimpoint PRO was made as a more affordable and Patrol Specific model.
If the M2's, M3's, and M4's are too big thay make the T-1s, and H-1's which are more compact. The difference between the T-1 and H-1 is that the T-1 is better waterproofed. if you're going on a combat diver mission get a T-1! LoL
The problems that frequently occur with the Eotechs are:
- The battery contact in the longer models tends to fail
- The Nitrogen filled compartment tends to loose its pressure and the Eotech has to be sent in for repair. The result is a dim to no reticle.
I just sold my EOTECH 557.4XFTS and when the buyer got it he said he couldn't see the reticle! So taking his word for it I refunded him his money after I received it and checked it out for myself. And sure as hell the reticle could barely be seen! So now I sent it to Eotech for refurbishment. Now I gotta sell it again! LoL
Another aspect to a red dot is the mount! QD mounts. When dismounting the red dot a QD mount will maintain the zero, PENDING MANUFACTURER. A twist tension type mount will most likely have to be re-zeroed every time unless you use a torque setting or mark it.
I only use Larue QD mounts as their customer service is awesome as well as their products.
Then there's Co-witeness... To save some typing I'll just post a link for ya
Any other questions about em dont hesitate to ask. Measure twice, shoot once
Here's some info I cut and pasted. Written by Jon Consiglio:
Red Dots - Proper Basic Use and the Reason for Co-Witnessing
Whether it's on the forums or in a training environment, there are a couple things I hear or see that need addressed so those running red dots, or considering purchasing them, can fully understand proper use and get the most out of their set up.
One of these things is people co-witnessing with their irons when firing their weapon. I've heard it mentioned before, but I never realized how common this was until I started paying attention to it. In my opinion, if you take the time to co-witness your irons with your optic every time, you have little more than a painted front sight that cost you hundreds of dollars.
The second thing is seen more than heard on the forums and it is one of the biggest issues I see with the speed of first round hits. What I've noticed many shooters doing is bringing the rifle into a firing position from a ready position, then taking the time to center the dot in the optic, most not even realizing they're doing so. This is counter productive and can slow you down considerably. To get to the bottom of the issue, we need to understand how a red dot works and what it is truly designed to do.
First, let's take a look at zeroing. Very simply, for me, I will co-witness the dot with the iron sights that are already zeroed. Keep in mind that a front sight post is typically 8 MOA and your Aimpoint will be 2 to 4 MOA and your EoTech will be 1 MOA.
See Image 2 below for a lower 1/3rd co-witness.
Once I've done this, I'll set my target at my desired zero range and fire five rounds. Usually I'll be very close and only need very minor corrections, if any.
I'll mention absolute co-witness and 1/3 co-witness quickly. All that an absolute co-witness means is that your irons will line up somewhere near the center of your optic, nothing more. Lower 1/3rd means they'll line up somewhere *in the lower 1/3rd.
This is not exact, but close. This also does not mean that you need to view your red dot in the center or lower 1/3rd at all times, it's just where the irons and red dot co-witness. Contrary to what some believe, co-witnessing with your irons will not be more accurate that using the red dot alone.
This leads me to my next point, which is that centering the dot will do almost nothing for accuracy and will quite likely slow you down. I've seen so many shooters, often LEO's that are somewhat new to red dots, that are showing only minimal improvement on first shot times from a ready position. When we try to figure out the reason, it usually comes down to them centering the dot in the optic.
From a low ready, for example, we should be bringing the rifle to a firing position and firing as soon as we catch a glimpse of the red dot covering the area we intend to shoot. This could mean that the red dot is in the top left corner of the optic, top and center, or to the right and center as I show in images 3, 4 and 5. Only when the shooter can grasp this idea will they show considerable improvements in first shot times.
This isn't so much about the benefits of a red dot as it is proper use, but just to mention a few - a red dot will allow you to focus on the target and not the front sight post or dot. It will be much easier to follow when firing multiple rounds and will also be much more visible in low light. I know very few shooters that cannot shoot faster with a red dot than they can with irons. In most cases, they're more accurate as well.
If I'm firing at 200 meters from the bench, of course I'll center the dot in the optic as I'm trying to be as consistent as possible with my cheek to stock weld and everything else for that matter. But, in most other situations, I'm just looking for a quick flash of the dot covering my intended target in the general area I want to shoot it.
Image 1 - The setup. Aimpoint M4s and KAC folding iron sights. 2" square about 10 feet away.
Image 2 - Lower 1/3rd co-witness. The only time I should see his is when I'm zeroing my rifle or doing a quick check to assure my irons and optic are still zeroed (or close). The reason the dot is slightly above the front sight post is I use a 6 o'clock hold with irons and I hold over the target with the dot.
Images 3, 4 and 5 - This is how we should view our dot most of the time. The rifle may have moved slightly between pics, but as you can see, the dot is still in the same general place on target regardless of where in the optic it is positioned. The irons and barrel are still in the same place, as is the optic. The only thing that has changed is our view or the red dot. The bullet will still impact the same place in all three pics below.
Image 6 - should our red dot fail or should we enter a brightly lit environment from a dark environment and not have time to adjust our optic, this is how we'll view our irons through the tube. There are other options like using the tube as the rear aperture or viewing the front sight post over the rear aperture, but we'll save that for another time.
Here's the proper sight picture with a lower 1/3rd set up with a T1 (rifle is a KAC sr15). Smaller window but same idea.
Well, that's about it. This was basically remedial red dot. I just wanted to have something like this posted with pics as I find myself explaining it nearly on a weekly basis. So now, I can just post a link. I didn't want to get into parallax just yet. Even though the Aimpoint is considered parallax-free, there is a small amount at close range.
Oh, keep in mind that when you are using a 3x magnifier with a 4 MOA red dot, the dot is still 4 MOA when viewed at 3x, the dot does become 3 times larger, but so does everything else, which means it still only covers roughly 4" at 100 yards.
I hope this at least gave someone a slightly better understanding of the benefits of a red dot. Done right, it should allow you faster first round hits as well as faster follow up shots, not to mention the benefits when in awkward shooting positions and when the heart is pumping at 180 because it's dark and scary and things are about to get wild.
EDIT - 16 September 2012
I had a Lightfighter/m4c member come in from Ohio to do some shooting this week. It was a perfect example of what I explained in my opening post.
We set up our targets at 7 to 10 yards with an 8" center of mass and an index card on the face. Starting at a relaxed/patrol ready and firing 3 rounds center mass and 2 to the head (index card), he was average 1.2 for the first round and 2.2 for the full drill. After noticing the delay from bringing the rifle to the shoulder and firing the first round, I figured he was searching for the dot or subconsciously trying to center it.
He had already reviewed the red dot post of mine on another forum and we talked about that. I showed him the two videos I took of him firing. He already knows this from numerous advanced classes, but I reminded him to focus on the target, bring the rifle to the shoulder and the dot through his line of sight to the target while continuing to focus on the target. I asked him to fire when there was a flash of the dot on the target.
He did this again, each time firing his first shot between .9 and .99 and the complete drill between 1.85 and just under 2 seconds. This might not sound like a huge difference, but we're talking a 25% improvement in one or two hour's time. We spent Wednesday afternoon and evening on the range as well as Thursday morning and afternoon.
My times were roughly .8 on average for the first round and averaged around 1.7 for the 5 rounds. Anything under 1 second for the first shot from a relaxed position and 2 seconds for the complete drill is good.
If we were starting from a "low ready", which has essentially become nothing more than a shouldered rifle with a view slightly over your optic, then good times should be closer to .8 or less for the first round and under 1.75 for the 5 rounds.
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well,TX again for all the useful info. after all my research and reading i am down to #1 burris ar 332,#2 burris tac 30,#3 vortex strikefire. i want to be able to shoot out to 100 and my eyes will be challenged even @ 3x at that distance. i don't think a 2x doubler on the vortex will do it. weight-the tac 30 is 17 oz plus mount. also,the weight and "busyness" of a magnifier just don't appeal. this is going on a "carbine" and have decided to leave my "rifle" scope only. will want to keep my A2 front post and install a rear BUIS for the obvious reasons. any lingering thoughts on this bunch? aimpoint and eotech are just way to expensive and would still reqire some extra stuff for my ideal setup $ matter. thanks again.
