Was looking into the Kestrel 4500NV w/ Applied Balastics and bluetooth.
- Thread starter Scorpion King
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A kestrel or a weatherhawk 350 is a valuable item. A kestrel with Applied Ballistics and BT is nice to have if the price isn't prohibitive for you. You can pick up and old ipod and download a ballistic app for less if it is. The weatherhawk is also a good alternative to a Kestrel if that price is too high for you. it wrks just as well and a review of it can be seen here WeatherHawk WM-350: An Alternative to the Kestrel 4500NV
Being able to get an accurate density altitude has been very valuable for me! I don't see spending the extra money for the applied ballistics version of the kestrel when I can get a beater phone and run the applied ballistics software on that and get bluetooth synchronization of the kestrel data for less money. The phone is not only an easier interface to read and use it also allows for online backup and synchronization of weapon data.
+1.....I did the same. Only disadvantage is you're carrying a little more weight/equipment.
I've used android, iphone, and I've used a Kestrel with them.
Hands down the Kestrel w/ AB or Horus is the winner. It's a very valuable tool if used correctly.
First you don't have to have two devices to get your dope. 2nd, it live updates, and 3rd ( most important) the battery life is 100x that of your cell phone. I've seen tons of cell phones go dead in a match.
Ever shoot in the rain? If you don't have a special case for your phone it's not going to be a good day for you. Kestrel is weather proof.
The Kestrel with ballistic software built in is excellent for field use, and for range use really. I've seen guys that only shoot at the range, use the kestrel with an android tablet and have the kestrel on a tripod. Sure that's great as well, but not something you can just set up in the field during a match or on a hunt.
IMO the Kestrel with AB/Horus is an invaluable tool that I use often.
Hands down the Kestrel w/ AB or Horus is the winner. It's a very valuable tool if used correctly.
First you don't have to have two devices to get your dope. 2nd, it live updates, and 3rd ( most important) the battery life is 100x that of your cell phone. I've seen tons of cell phones go dead in a match.
Ever shoot in the rain? If you don't have a special case for your phone it's not going to be a good day for you. Kestrel is weather proof.
The Kestrel with ballistic software built in is excellent for field use, and for range use really. I've seen guys that only shoot at the range, use the kestrel with an android tablet and have the kestrel on a tripod. Sure that's great as well, but not something you can just set up in the field during a match or on a hunt.
IMO the Kestrel with AB/Horus is an invaluable tool that I use often.
Since I have become accustomed to using DA as my atmospheric indicator a kestrel 4xxx is a "must have".
I use it for DA much more than I do for wind. When I was starting out shooting long range I used to carry a wind meter everywhere and when bored would try to guess the wind speed, then check myself with a meter-after a while one gets pretty good.
The 4500's ability to take a bearing, then give you the true cross wind value is pretty cool, wish I had a 4500 now instead of my 4000-I'd probably use it for wind more.
I use it for DA much more than I do for wind. When I was starting out shooting long range I used to carry a wind meter everywhere and when bored would try to guess the wind speed, then check myself with a meter-after a while one gets pretty good.
The 4500's ability to take a bearing, then give you the true cross wind value is pretty cool, wish I had a 4500 now instead of my 4000-I'd probably use it for wind more.
If your not using it with the bluetooth and only for windspeed , humidity etc then i think the Windtronics 2 is far better as its multi directional and can be put straight in front of you no matter which way the wind is blowing plus the larger main screen gives current , max & average wind speeds since the unit was switched on .
I have the Kestrel with Atrag and I love having an integrated unit in a small form factor with good battery life. I've used it to get hits at 1 mile within 3 shots so if you input good data you get good data out. It doesn't replace being able to read wind but it definitely helps. I don't mind the small screen, once you get used to it it's easy to get to the data you need. I used to use my phone with Shooter which was accurate enough but not the form factor I wanted.
Hmmm....a windtronic is a nice piece for the money, if your only interested in wind speed. However, any 4*** kestrel is by far superior, there is no comparising, but than again, thats why your paying more for it.
D.A. is one of the more important differences but not the only, you get so much more out of a kestrel.
And as for multi directional...to be able to put the windtronic in front of you, you need to put it on a small tripod. For the kestrel there is a small wind-vane type tripod, which will make your kestrel also multi wind directional.
D.A. is one of the more important differences but not the only, you get so much more out of a kestrel.
And as for multi directional...to be able to put the windtronic in front of you, you need to put it on a small tripod. For the kestrel there is a small wind-vane type tripod, which will make your kestrel also multi wind directional.
Was thinking of going with this
NK Kestrel 4500NV BLUETOOTH Horus ATrag Shooting Ballistics Bundle Deal
NK Kestrel 4500NV BLUETOOTH Horus ATrag Shooting Ballistics Bundle Deal
How is the kestrel multi directional with the aid of the wind vane if you can't see the screen ? The only way you can the screen is if the wind is coming from behind you !
For the same price, I would recommend the AB version over the Horus version. In either of the Horus or AB versions, you want the Bluetooth version.
I 2nd DiesellGeeks recommendations. I will also point out phones fail in low temps / high temps while the Kestrel has a much larger operating temperature range. I used to use Ballistic AE on my iphone (still there) but after having my iphone quit on my in cold, and in too hot (in a car) its not very reliable of a unit. If your only shooting at the range it would be fine, but if your out in hunting season, I wouldn't trust my iphone. In fact I keep my phone shut off in case of emergency so I know i have battery power.
I 2nd DiesellGeeks recommendations. I will also point out phones fail in low temps / high temps while the Kestrel has a much larger operating temperature range. I used to use Ballistic AE on my iphone (still there) but after having my iphone quit on my in cold, and in too hot (in a car) its not very reliable of a unit. If your only shooting at the range it would be fine, but if your out in hunting season, I wouldn't trust my iphone. In fact I keep my phone shut off in case of emergency so I know i have battery power.
You could chase it around peering at the screen I suppose, that is a technique mind you. However, I think the clever chaps are using the Bluetooth feature on the kestrel to talk to their ballistic calculator when using the wind vane mate.
Like I said in #8 , if your not using it for the Bluetooth , then it's next to useless as a wind speed /wind direction unit .
It is very nice to know the windstrenght with the windtronic....but you still need to find out from what direction it is blowing. So even with a windtronic you need an extra action to determine the wind direction. Same goes for the kestrel, if you do not use the bt capability, then the need for the vane is of less value. But just hold the kestrel up in the air, in the direction where the wind is coming from and your still good to go. I personally have no need for a wind meter that only shows windstrenght...it is a nice (but small) feature to coninously show me the wind strenth because it is multo directional....but the 20+ extra features of a kestrel makes it a no brainer for me, to choose between the 2.
well one man's no brainer is not for all but whilst i have both the Kestrel & Windtronics i thought i'd give my take . I think that most things we buy to aid us need a slight tweak here and there so suit our own requirements and the Windtronics was no exception . I feel that having the kestrel continually giving me updates is a cool feature that i just wanted to have BUT...... the reality of it is once you get to where your shooting and have taken the temp , humidity , barometrics etc which can be taken with everything from Suunto's , casio's , Iphones , Altitech's ..... God the list is endless any slight changes will make next to no difference .
Take a 90g Berger VLD in 224 cal at 1000 yards , Temperature is possibly the biggest reason for change that a kestrel could give you and that would be approx 5 inches if the temperature was to break the record books and go + or - 20 F within the hours that your shooting there , So not needing to know the exact continual windspeed amazes me as shooting on a 12mph instead of a 14mph for instance would equate to nearly three times the error of the record breaking temperature switch .
By the time you've stood up and taken a reading in CLEAN air if thats possible then got back down , settled and ready the winds changed !
Knowing the windspeed and direction is more important than any of the 20+ features the kestrel can tell you .
Still love my kestrel but then i love gadgets .
Here is my truck setup with the unit in clean air and a screen big enough to see from the ground or i attach a spike when on grass .
Take a 90g Berger VLD in 224 cal at 1000 yards , Temperature is possibly the biggest reason for change that a kestrel could give you and that would be approx 5 inches if the temperature was to break the record books and go + or - 20 F within the hours that your shooting there , So not needing to know the exact continual windspeed amazes me as shooting on a 12mph instead of a 14mph for instance would equate to nearly three times the error of the record breaking temperature switch .
By the time you've stood up and taken a reading in CLEAN air if thats possible then got back down , settled and ready the winds changed !
Knowing the windspeed and direction is more important than any of the 20+ features the kestrel can tell you .
Still love my kestrel but then i love gadgets .
Here is my truck setup with the unit in clean air and a screen big enough to see from the ground or i attach a spike when on grass .
They are great untill the defective batteries they used to issue start to corode out the of poorly designed battery box because of a electronic design flaw and then they offer you a new one at 55% of the price.............
They will never see another cent from me.. Ide use a wind sock and smoke signals before I would buy another.
They will never see another cent from me.. Ide use a wind sock and smoke signals before I would buy another.
Temperature is important. But you can do that with a cheap thermometer.
You can get actual altitude from a map or GPS (smart phone).
There is a thread in Basic Marksmanship that discusses baro pressure. It turns out, that over the past year, at the Bang Steel range, baro pressure has accounted for a 0.1 mil change in come up at 1000 yards. So HOW important it is?
Wind speed at the guns location is good, but what about at the target? And mid trajectory? Especially up where the bullet actually flies at mid-trajectory?
You can get actual altitude from a map or GPS (smart phone).
There is a thread in Basic Marksmanship that discusses baro pressure. It turns out, that over the past year, at the Bang Steel range, baro pressure has accounted for a 0.1 mil change in come up at 1000 yards. So HOW important it is?
Wind speed at the guns location is good, but what about at the target? And mid trajectory? Especially up where the bullet actually flies at mid-trajectory?
Indespensible for guys that dont really want to learn how to shoot.
I dont know HOW we EVER hit a target in the 'old days' before Kestrels, ballistic computers and scopes that tell us where to aim. It was crazy! Spray and pray! We actually carried PAPER! With NUMBERS on it! Nuts I tell you, NUTS!
I dont know HOW we EVER hit a target in the 'old days' before Kestrels, ballistic computers and scopes that tell us where to aim. It was crazy! Spray and pray! We actually carried PAPER! With NUMBERS on it! Nuts I tell you, NUTS!
I found a great video review of the Kestrel with Applied Ballistics. I don't have one yet but I'm saving my pennies.
Shooting long range with the Kestrel 4500NV Applied Ballistics - YouTube
Shooting long range with the Kestrel 4500NV Applied Ballistics - YouTube
Huh, paper? That's that stuff they shove in my mail-box that isn't gun or car parts, right?
Take a look at the weatherhawk 350 then, it does everything a kestrel 4500 will do and at a lower price.
Its very important if you travel to other locations for comps and or hunting. In some locations, it will change significantly from morning to late in the day and or day to day.
There are epic conversations on this but ultimately all 3 are important in the grand scheme. However, you need an accurate and quantifiable number to start with, otherwise you are guessing, which isn't conducive for precision, as every mph of wind speed error can be calculated for in the error that will be seen at the target.
Funny, there was a small group of people that used to say similar things when RAM air canopies, AAD's and GPS calculated spots started to become the norm.
The Kestrel or equivalent is an essential tool for long range shooting, especially if you are serious about honing your skill.
The combination of Applied Ballistics and the Weather Meter is a great field solution for those who don't want to bring their phones on the line, or don't want to buy more expensive dedicated PDAs.
If you shoot the same range every weekend over and over, you can easily do without any tools simply record your data and repeat. However if you travel, or shoot both field and range courses, the Kestrel will move your wind calling ability farther down the road faster. The old adage for learning to dope the wind was always, "grab a case of ammo and go out and shoot". Today there are more efficient and economical ways of learning the wind without expending a case of ammo at a time. The wind meter is the necessary piece of equipment for this. It's much faster and efficient.
As far as batteries, please, grow up, when you get the meter, throw away the supplied batteries and buy a set of Energizer Lithiums and move on down the road. Last forever and will not spill battery fluid. If you're the kind of guy that uses the supplied batteries, like the ones that came with your TV's remote, you're just cheap and lazy. Batteries are the operators responsibility, never the manufacturers. Even NF says, "remove batteries when not in use" because they don't want people ruining a $10k piece of kit with a 50 cent battery. They just stamp it on the housing. Lithium batteries don't suffer the problem like regular ones do.
The combination of Applied Ballistics and the Weather Meter is a great field solution for those who don't want to bring their phones on the line, or don't want to buy more expensive dedicated PDAs.
If you shoot the same range every weekend over and over, you can easily do without any tools simply record your data and repeat. However if you travel, or shoot both field and range courses, the Kestrel will move your wind calling ability farther down the road faster. The old adage for learning to dope the wind was always, "grab a case of ammo and go out and shoot". Today there are more efficient and economical ways of learning the wind without expending a case of ammo at a time. The wind meter is the necessary piece of equipment for this. It's much faster and efficient.
As far as batteries, please, grow up, when you get the meter, throw away the supplied batteries and buy a set of Energizer Lithiums and move on down the road. Last forever and will not spill battery fluid. If you're the kind of guy that uses the supplied batteries, like the ones that came with your TV's remote, you're just cheap and lazy. Batteries are the operators responsibility, never the manufacturers. Even NF says, "remove batteries when not in use" because they don't want people ruining a $10k piece of kit with a 50 cent battery. They just stamp it on the housing. Lithium batteries don't suffer the problem like regular ones do.
Meh. I got one for a good price and like it quite a bit, but only use it when I travel to other places.
I get a wind reading at the target, and depending how far the target is, a couple readings at intervals from the target to the shooting position. Then a shooting position wind reading.
If shooting 300 yds or under I use wind flags.
I use the altitude, temp, BN, and DA more than the wind meter.
I get a wind reading at the target, and depending how far the target is, a couple readings at intervals from the target to the shooting position. Then a shooting position wind reading.
If shooting 300 yds or under I use wind flags.
I use the altitude, temp, BN, and DA more than the wind meter.
How do you get a wind reading at the target ?
And I have never seen wind flags in the field ?
Wind needs to be called to within 1 MPH in order to hit a 1 MOA target, anything not at the shooter is a guess, in some cases, if you are experienced it can be an educated guess but it is still a guess. Guesses are rarely within that 1 MPH standard. You can monitor the wind with a meter and read the changes and apply the changes to what you see giving them an actual value.
Wind does not travel in a straight line, it does not travel at one speed so guesses are always suspect. All wind calls, all wind calls begin at the shooter, we have to have a foundation in order to guess what it might be doing hundred of yards away. We see, feel, and hear the wind, WE do that, a wind meter is the way we calibrate our senses otherwise it is all trial and error, which if you have gone through years of trial, you have a better understanding, but for those who have no taken years to hone their skills, a wind meter is the fastest way to calibrate your calls.
And I have never seen wind flags in the field ?
Wind needs to be called to within 1 MPH in order to hit a 1 MOA target, anything not at the shooter is a guess, in some cases, if you are experienced it can be an educated guess but it is still a guess. Guesses are rarely within that 1 MPH standard. You can monitor the wind with a meter and read the changes and apply the changes to what you see giving them an actual value.
Wind does not travel in a straight line, it does not travel at one speed so guesses are always suspect. All wind calls, all wind calls begin at the shooter, we have to have a foundation in order to guess what it might be doing hundred of yards away. We see, feel, and hear the wind, WE do that, a wind meter is the way we calibrate our senses otherwise it is all trial and error, which if you have gone through years of trial, you have a better understanding, but for those who have no taken years to hone their skills, a wind meter is the fastest way to calibrate your calls.
Funny, there was a small group of people that used to say similar things when RAM air canopies, AAD's and GPS calculated spots started to become the norm.
Ppffftttt! Just throw a streamer and whip out the Pterodactyl! Youll be fine!
Run the numbers in a ballistics program like JBM.
Taking real life baro pressures from the highest pressure to the lowest pressure over 9 MONTHS, the entire range from lowest to highest pressure was 0.1 mil correction. Or 0.05 from average baro pressure.
Density altitude DOES vary lot over a given day, but due to TEMPERATURE.
Yes, if you shoot in the eye of a hurricane, baro pressure might make a large difference, but for normal weather, it is not a big change.
Agreed , once you've got the barometrics concentrate on wind speed & direction .
That is not necessarily true...
Barometric pressure when used in shooting is also a factor of altitude. So inputting absolute pressure can change it also and have nothing to do with temperature.
In August I zeroed in CO at 5000ft, temp around 80. Traveled to OR at 1000 ft with the same temperature. My dope went from 6.5 mils to 7.2 mils. I use absolute pressure. In JBM as well as I do not correct it. Difference between a recorded pressure of 29.92 vs 24.92 because of the altitude.
Altitude in terms of bullet flight is a feature of barometric pressure which is what he is talking about. When given access to complete data, I use this and not a shortcut as programs were designed with this in mind. DA was added later and is best used as a back up when no software is used. With software I use the actual values from the kestrel. There is a reason it grays out altitude in software.
Let me clarify. I take a wind reading at my target when I set it up, and multiple readings o the way back from the target. Sorry for the confusion. However, once you get back to your shooting position you are shooting blind again, because you don't have a constant update of wind values/variables at each distance to your target.
Correct that wind flags are not in the field. I use the wind flags for another branch of the shooting tree, but the use of wind flags through the years has helped me immensely on wind calls when wind flags are not in use.
The kestrel is new to me. I used wind flags and the "shoot and find out" method for years. The kestrel is a new toy for me, and it is useful, but the wind part of it is just "Ok" to me.
You are correct in that wind does not flow in a straight line. Not only that, but the wind is doing funny things at different distances to the target. It may be flowing full value at 100 yds, but at 200 yds it may only be making the wind flag (insert indicator of choice like grass and bushes and shit) sputter. A kestrel will not show you that, and for new shooters they may not even consider it.
It is a great aid in shooting, but it is not the end all/be all. As was stated, having the foundations are more important and a kestrel helps you whether you are new or old to shooting.
Ya'll ever watch mirage on a "wind free" day? Good stuff there.
Correct that wind flags are not in the field. I use the wind flags for another branch of the shooting tree, but the use of wind flags through the years has helped me immensely on wind calls when wind flags are not in use.
The kestrel is new to me. I used wind flags and the "shoot and find out" method for years. The kestrel is a new toy for me, and it is useful, but the wind part of it is just "Ok" to me.
You are correct in that wind does not flow in a straight line. Not only that, but the wind is doing funny things at different distances to the target. It may be flowing full value at 100 yds, but at 200 yds it may only be making the wind flag (insert indicator of choice like grass and bushes and shit) sputter. A kestrel will not show you that, and for new shooters they may not even consider it.
It is a great aid in shooting, but it is not the end all/be all. As was stated, having the foundations are more important and a kestrel helps you whether you are new or old to shooting.
Ya'll ever watch mirage on a "wind free" day? Good stuff there.
A kestrel will show you changes, and give you a value to those changes, you have to use it for more than 30 seconds, and it's easy to assign a value to changes observed.
Using the kestrel to observe the wind for a few minutes, you can quickly see a hi, low, and average, when the wind drops off downrange as observed through a scope or any other means, you can then assign a value to that observation.
If a flag mid range is doing something abnormal, it's probably a result of terrain, some obstacle in the winds path changing its value. Generally speaking you can ignore that small localized disturbance, each range will have it's own quirks that experience will teach, but you can still get a value with the kestrel. It is the foundation, without it, it's all trial and error requiring the shooter to reserve engineer the call after the fact. When they see whether or not they hit, not before.
Mirage, no nobody here has ever seen mirage what is it ? Besides a casino in Las Vegas, the Beatles show is cool there. So how do you value this mirage if you have never see it before ? How does a new shooter assign a value to that so called mirage ? Oh, reserve engineer it again, trial and error I suppose, unless they have a kestrel and match up the readings to the mirage... you know a foundation, an entry for their person database.
Using the kestrel to observe the wind for a few minutes, you can quickly see a hi, low, and average, when the wind drops off downrange as observed through a scope or any other means, you can then assign a value to that observation.
If a flag mid range is doing something abnormal, it's probably a result of terrain, some obstacle in the winds path changing its value. Generally speaking you can ignore that small localized disturbance, each range will have it's own quirks that experience will teach, but you can still get a value with the kestrel. It is the foundation, without it, it's all trial and error requiring the shooter to reserve engineer the call after the fact. When they see whether or not they hit, not before.
Mirage, no nobody here has ever seen mirage what is it ? Besides a casino in Las Vegas, the Beatles show is cool there. So how do you value this mirage if you have never see it before ? How does a new shooter assign a value to that so called mirage ? Oh, reserve engineer it again, trial and error I suppose, unless they have a kestrel and match up the readings to the mirage... you know a foundation, an entry for their person database.
All very good points and thank you.
I hve a Kestrel and love it. I don't always bust it out when shooting but its always in my pack. I travel 10-11 months out of the year and I shoot from deep south to far west and I'm in upstate New York right now. The Kestrel mostly helps me with enviro numbers more than wind but I still bust it out every now and then (more off the range than on) to check myself in wind and enviro parameters. IF your serious about LR shooting then I highly recommend the AB Kestrel. Mine is standard 4000NV but if I was doing it again I would go AB I think. FFS/EXBAL/Shooter has got me covered for now but no problem with more gear in no more weight.
Even if I not able to shoot, that doesn't mean I cant practice different things related to LR shooting. The kestrel will keep certain skills sharper than nothing at all. I loved testing out Mr.Steve Suttles human Kestrel model agains my man made model. With enough practice, one can get very good.
Get the KEstrel and enjoy.
Even if I not able to shoot, that doesn't mean I cant practice different things related to LR shooting. The kestrel will keep certain skills sharper than nothing at all. I loved testing out Mr.Steve Suttles human Kestrel model agains my man made model. With enough practice, one can get very good.
Get the KEstrel and enjoy.
LowLight's reply in post #33 nails it on the head.
While I am a new shooter I plan on getting a Kestryl in the future. When shooting matches does one have time to input everything in the Kestryl in the field? Seems that it would take some time?
kestrel for DA , wind is on the shooter. and make data cards for da off of smartphones shooter. the batteries have never died on my da cards and I believe it was sobrbiker who put me on the clear boxtape to "laminate" them from the rain.
the wind is hardly ever the same at the shooter and at the target. the best explanation is a boat traveling across a lake when the wake hits you there are different conditions on the other side of the lake.
the guns are ridiculous accurate, scope awesome and most guys at matches can sure run a gun, but the wind is where winners are filtered out.
to me the kestrel is an essential tool for easily determining which drop card to use for a given location. Beyond that it stays in the ruck the other 90% of the time.the terrain we shoot in out here is ALWAYS obscured by a treeline or a ridge etc. that buffers wind.buy the most expensive glass you can afford and depend on that to read conditions down range where you are sending the bullet.
to me you MUST have a kestrel that reads DA. or if ya wanna make it complicated temp , baro, humidity, etc. wind is on you
the wind is hardly ever the same at the shooter and at the target. the best explanation is a boat traveling across a lake when the wake hits you there are different conditions on the other side of the lake.
the guns are ridiculous accurate, scope awesome and most guys at matches can sure run a gun, but the wind is where winners are filtered out.
to me the kestrel is an essential tool for easily determining which drop card to use for a given location. Beyond that it stays in the ruck the other 90% of the time.the terrain we shoot in out here is ALWAYS obscured by a treeline or a ridge etc. that buffers wind.buy the most expensive glass you can afford and depend on that to read conditions down range where you are sending the bullet.
to me you MUST have a kestrel that reads DA. or if ya wanna make it complicated temp , baro, humidity, etc. wind is on you
You are confusing the baro readings. When you get a baro reading from a weather station, it is corrected to sea level. The density altitude correction is covered by the actual physical altitude.
If you take an absolute pressure reading at altitude, you are getting basically a PRESSURE altitude. If you put 24.92 and 5000 feet, BOTH into JBM, you will be WAY off target (unless you uncheck the little box). One or the other.
Yes, pressure changes over altitude, but that is predictable. And JBM takes that into account when you put in the altitude.
Try it, put in 29.92 as the pressure and then change the altitude from 0 feet to 5000 feet.
For my .308 load, 80F, 80% RH at 0 altitude, come up for 1000 yards is 11.3 mils. At 5000 feet (still with pressure set at 29.92) the come up is 9.9 mils.
Notice in JBM, under the Pressure input box, is a check box that says Pressure Is Corrected. If that is checked, it corrects for altitude, and the minor changes in pressure from weather are INSIGNIFICANT.
Yes, you can uncheck that box and input absolute pressure, but then it does not use the Altitude input.
You can use either, but bottom line is, you do not need a pressure reading. But you DO need to know your actual altitude (GPS or map) and Temperature. If you have a pressure reading, you do not need to know your altitude. Would I put out the money for a Kestral to add a pressure reading to my ballistics input? No. I have a GPS.
Baro pressure changes with weather, that is not predictable, but trivial.
For fun, I used your data. I don't know your rifle, so I used my .308 load. If I put in 80F, 80% RH, 5000 feet and 29.92 (with the box checked for corrected pressure), I get a come up at 1000 yards of 9.9 mils. If I put in 80F, 80%RH, and your pressure reading of 24.92 and UNCHECK the pressure box, I get a come up of 10.0 mils. Or a difference of 0.1 mils or 3.6 inches at 1000 yards.
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Nope. You do not NEED pressure, IF you know the actual altitude.
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agree
I don't know how you came up with those numbers with JBM. I've run them using the same 308, 175 gr, same temp/humidity and 29.92/24.92 where appropriate and even intentionally doing it wrong to see if I could recreate a .1 mil difference. I couldn't do it using JBM, even with both std and corrected boxes checked. JBM provided the following firing solutions:
Corrected:
5k=8.5
1k=9.7
Standard:
5k=9.0
1k=10.1
I ran the same data through ATRAG and Coldbore and neither one produced a firing solution that only differed by .1mil.
So what I am really interested in knowing now, and I'm serious, is how you managed to get JBM to spit out a firing solution that was only .1mil difference when I can't get it to do that even when intentionally giving it incorrect inputs?
EDIT: I pulled out the FDAC to see what the analog obtained results would be for the given Altitudes/Temps for shits and giggles and this is what it spits out:
1K/80degrees= DA 2500, drop at 1000 = 13.6 (sub sonic)
5k/80degees= DA 7500, drop at 1000= 12
Screen grab of STD pressure:
Screen Grab of Corrected pressure:
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Did you uncheck the box to use absolute pressure instead of corrected pressure?
The normal pressure at 5000 feet is about 24.9" of Hg. So putting in 24.92" absolute pressure is close to being the same as 29.92 corrected and 5000 feet.
Air Pressure and Altitude above Sea Level
The normal pressure at 5000 feet is about 24.9" of Hg. So putting in 24.92" absolute pressure is close to being the same as 29.92 corrected and 5000 feet.
Air Pressure and Altitude above Sea Level
Altitude is a FUNCTION of Barometric Pressure...
using a Kestrel, it determines your altitude by the air pressure, and not by where you are standing. The bullet only know air density, so why would you care about altitude ?
There is NO reason to even consider altitude with a ballistic program if you have a kestrel. And DA is about air pressure and not where you are standing on the ground. DA has nothing to do with your actual Altitude and in colder temperatures can be well off.
Also most don;t have DA charts that go as high as some people will be... especially in summer.
One Hour from my house where I shot the Angle Videos
Baro is 18.15 and DA is 15,000ft
You are wasting your time and everyone else's time if you are talking about using Altitude with a ballistic program.
using a Kestrel, it determines your altitude by the air pressure, and not by where you are standing. The bullet only know air density, so why would you care about altitude ?
There is NO reason to even consider altitude with a ballistic program if you have a kestrel. And DA is about air pressure and not where you are standing on the ground. DA has nothing to do with your actual Altitude and in colder temperatures can be well off.
Also most don;t have DA charts that go as high as some people will be... especially in summer.
One Hour from my house where I shot the Angle Videos
Baro is 18.15 and DA is 15,000ft
You are wasting your time and everyone else's time if you are talking about using Altitude with a ballistic program.
Yes, As I stated, I ran the same criteria and checked /unchecked the appropriate blocks as needed. If you refer to the screen grabs I posted, they show if the pressure is corrected or standard with a "yes" or a "no". And as you can see, there is not a .1 difference in the two as calculated by JBM as you stated earlier.
I had a Horus prior to buying my AB...Was never really a fan of the Horus to be 100%...
I shoot 308/300WM/338LM...I don't get out too much on the 338LM because my state went to hell but, it is what it is.
The issue I had with the Horus is that my shots beyond a certain distance were always slightly off...I have a dope chart and when gauging wind, the scale just didn't account for the BC past a certain yardage.
With the AB, it's almost always dead on...Any errors are my fault, I'm extremely happy. -- Now, I'm not knocking the Horus at all but, if you're going to shoot custom loads, particularly in the larger calibers, I'd suggest going for the AB.
My only beef with EITHER of them is that programming for a 300wm vs 308 is very...Interesting...Considering it's actually quite easy to accidentally cross the data...I've done it a few times which is why I ultimately made my own charts...but, that's really my only issue.
So, toy? Really depends on your purpose...I never go anywhere without mine...Also check weather/wind patterns on the phone just to make sure I'm accurate...The more information you have will typically lead you to taking a better shot.
I shoot 308/300WM/338LM...I don't get out too much on the 338LM because my state went to hell but, it is what it is.
The issue I had with the Horus is that my shots beyond a certain distance were always slightly off...I have a dope chart and when gauging wind, the scale just didn't account for the BC past a certain yardage.
With the AB, it's almost always dead on...Any errors are my fault, I'm extremely happy. -- Now, I'm not knocking the Horus at all but, if you're going to shoot custom loads, particularly in the larger calibers, I'd suggest going for the AB.
My only beef with EITHER of them is that programming for a 300wm vs 308 is very...Interesting...Considering it's actually quite easy to accidentally cross the data...I've done it a few times which is why I ultimately made my own charts...but, that's really my only issue.
So, toy? Really depends on your purpose...I never go anywhere without mine...Also check weather/wind patterns on the phone just to make sure I'm accurate...The more information you have will typically lead you to taking a better shot.
Papa, I see what pinecone did. He is saying that if you correct for altitude yourself and then do it again letting JBM correct for it the two results are basically the same. I don't see how that helps anything though.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
It's pretty simple, your reference altitude has to be set to zero and your Barometric Pressure is set to sea level.
If you watch your altitude, or even DA using a kestrel, you'll see it constantly adjust, not big, but it moves, if you walk out your door in the morning it will give you one altitude and if you walk out later it will read slightly different again. It's because it uses Air Pressure.
Air Pressure, Air Density, is all the bullet cares about. The reason Density Altitude works is, it's where the bullet "thinks" it's at. So while the actual altitude might be 5000ft above sea level, given the conditions it would appear it is at 8000ft or even 2000ft, that doesn't mean that is the actual altitude but it represents a number that works when shooting.
When using battery-less charts, to get your DA you use the altitude you are at, along with the temperature. However depending on the conditions outside and where you are in the world, those numbers can be off by 1000ft DA or more. It's "good enough for government work" is the term. Using Altitude and Temp is a shortcut, using a meter, you want to use the actual DA as noted or if you are using a ballistic computer you use the Absolute Pressure... which mean you don't use Altitude.
I would not use corrected pressure with any ballistic computer, ever... the only time you can consider it, is if you are sitting in a hotel room with no clue what the actual Barometric Pressure is and you have to go by the newsman who is giving your corrected pressure. Then you need altitude.
Programs were not designed to use DA, that was added much later and not all programs allow you to use DA, so why get in the habit. They were written to use the actual data, not shortcut data. If you have a kestrel, use the actual values with the reference altitude set to 0, and the BP set to 29.92. You can record your DA in your log book, but use the real numbers.
If you watch your altitude, or even DA using a kestrel, you'll see it constantly adjust, not big, but it moves, if you walk out your door in the morning it will give you one altitude and if you walk out later it will read slightly different again. It's because it uses Air Pressure.
Air Pressure, Air Density, is all the bullet cares about. The reason Density Altitude works is, it's where the bullet "thinks" it's at. So while the actual altitude might be 5000ft above sea level, given the conditions it would appear it is at 8000ft or even 2000ft, that doesn't mean that is the actual altitude but it represents a number that works when shooting.
When using battery-less charts, to get your DA you use the altitude you are at, along with the temperature. However depending on the conditions outside and where you are in the world, those numbers can be off by 1000ft DA or more. It's "good enough for government work" is the term. Using Altitude and Temp is a shortcut, using a meter, you want to use the actual DA as noted or if you are using a ballistic computer you use the Absolute Pressure... which mean you don't use Altitude.
I would not use corrected pressure with any ballistic computer, ever... the only time you can consider it, is if you are sitting in a hotel room with no clue what the actual Barometric Pressure is and you have to go by the newsman who is giving your corrected pressure. Then you need altitude.
Programs were not designed to use DA, that was added much later and not all programs allow you to use DA, so why get in the habit. They were written to use the actual data, not shortcut data. If you have a kestrel, use the actual values with the reference altitude set to 0, and the BP set to 29.92. You can record your DA in your log book, but use the real numbers.
