Rifle Scopes Any point in FFP for low powered scopes?

[silhouette]

I am looking for a scope with a max power of around 10.
The choices are down to Vortex 2.5-10x32FFP or the Sightron 3.5-10x44.

I only have one FFP scope which is a Bushnell DMR and frankly, on 3.5x the reticle almost disappears. My one complaint with that scope.
When would anyone need to use the reticles subtensions at minimum power? For me the only time I use minimum power is for fast acquisition and only need an aiming point.
Calculating with reticles only happens when there is time to do so and therefore I am shooting at max power.

So my question is, what advantage does the Vortex offer over the Sightron, with all else being equal?
those of you wit the Vortex, do you find the crosshairs too fine at minimum power?

 

[SomeOtherGuy]

I own both those scopes. I find the center crosshairs far too small on the Vortex at 2.5x. With a scope in that magnification range you are likely to do all your ranging at maximum power, so for me, I don't see the benefit of FFP on that type of scope. (I do see the benefit of FFP for higher magnification scopes where lighting conditions, exit pupil, field of view and mirage may all cause you to use less than full magnification even for distant targets.)

Outside of the FFP question:
-both scopes have excellent glass for clarity and color, and are about tied on that
-the larger exit pupil of the SIII is a huge plus for most conditions
-both have very good turrets, but I slightly prefer the SIII
-the Vortex has excellent illumination that works very well. The Sightron has no illumination in most models, and a very tiny red dot in the center of the one illuminated model. If you want/need illumination, the PST is far ahead.
-The SIII is made in Japan and has the usual quality level you'd expect, the PST is assembled in the Philippines (apparently with Japan glass) and is definitely good but to me does not feel quite as high quality.
-The Vortex warranty is about the best there is; the Sightron warranty is lifetime for any defects and is (I believe) transferable to future owners, but they won't necessarily cover you for breakage if you run over the scope with your truck or do something else stupid.

 

[Rockhopper]

get the vortex. you will fall in love with this optic.

 

[silhouette]

I own both those scopes. I find the center crosshairs far too small on the Vortex at 2.5x. With a scope in that magnification range you are likely to do all your ranging at maximum power, so for me, I don't see the benefit of FFP on that type of scope. (I do see the benefit of FFP for higher magnification scopes where lighting conditions, exit pupil, field of view and mirage may all cause you to use less than full magnification even for distant targets.)

Outside of the FFP question:
-both scopes have excellent glass for clarity and color, and are about tied on that
-the larger exit pupil of the SIII is a huge plus for most conditions
-both have very good turrets, but I slightly prefer the SIII
-the Vortex has excellent illumination that works very well. The Sightron has no illumination in most models, and a very tiny red dot in the center of the one illuminated model. If you want/need illumination, the PST is far ahead.
-The SIII is made in Japan and has the usual quality level you'd expect, the PST is assembled in the Philippines (apparently with Japan glass) and is definitely good but to me does not feel quite as high quality.
-The Vortex warranty is about the best there is; the Sightron warranty is lifetime for any defects and is (I believe) transferable to future owners, but they won't necessarily cover you for breakage if you run over the scope with your truck or do something else stupid.

Thanks for the reply. That's exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for.
I already have the siii 6-24x50 and love it, so I think it's Sightron for me.
I like to stick with what I know and your post has given me what I need. There's no reason NOT to go with the Sightron.

 

[redirt78]

The only FFP low power optic I have experience with is the SS 1-6HD and the benefit of FFP on it is that on 1x you have an illuminated circle with an illuminated center and it's really fast on very close targets. When you twist up to 6x the large outer ring disappears and you have a mil based reticle for much more precise aiming. I'm not sure if any of the scopes you are considering work anything like that but I figured I would put that out there as one reason FFP might be good in a low powered optic.

 

[Cobracutter]

I am looking for a scope with a max power of around 10.
The choices are down to Vortex 2.5-10x32FFP or the Sightron 3.5-10x44.

I only have one FFP scope which is a Bushnell DMR and frankly, on 3.5x the reticle almost disappears. My one complaint with that scope.
When would anyone need to use the reticles subtensions at minimum power? For me the only time I use minimum power is for fast acquisition and only need an aiming point.
Calculating with reticles only happens when there is time to do so and therefore I am shooting at max power.

So my question is, what advantage does the Vortex offer over the Sightron, with all else being equal?
those of you wit the Vortex, do you find the crosshairs too fine at minimum power?

Uh the point of having low end magnification on FFP scopes is to make either shots at close range or hit movers. You dont need to use the reticle subtesnions for this. Would you rather just have a 8-21FFP?

For 1-4 and even 1-6 scopes FFP is not needed as your application is not precision but making hits on target. Anything past that, FFP becomes more important. While some people with very high levels of training and experince can do without. FFP wil always be faster and less error prone.

 

[samnev]

Uh the point of having low end magnification on FFP scopes is to make either shots at close range or hit movers. You dont need to use the reticle subtesnions for this. Would you rather just have a 8-21FFP?

For 1-4 and even 1-6 scopes FFP is not needed as your application is not precision but making hits on target. Anything past that, FFP becomes more important. While some people with very high levels of training and experince can do without. FFP wil always be faster and less error prone.

For the first time I agree completely with Cobracutter. I also find the subtensions useless at anything lower than 4X at least for my eye sight.

 

[BobinNC]

Uh the point of having low end magnification on FFP scopes is to make either shots at close range or hit movers. You dont need to use the reticle subtesnions for this. Would you rather just have a 8-21FFP?

For 1-4 and even 1-6 scopes FFP is not needed as your application is not precision but making hits on target. Anything past that, FFP becomes more important. While some people with very high levels of training and experience can do without. FFP wil always be faster and less error prone.

To follow on with Cobracutter's astute observations, it is also incumbent on scope designers to develop FFP reticles that can be useful at low power. One only has to look at SWFA's 1-4 and 1-6 FFP reticle design to find a reticle that works for both point and shoot at low power and precision at high power (relative to the scope range of powers).

Many of USO reticles and Bushnell's prototype LR Hunter scope and reticle are also excellent examples of well designed and useful FFP reticles at all powers.

 

[silhouette]

I am aware of what you are saying and understand why we have low power on FFP scopes, but cannot really see much point in having FFP in a scope with a max of 10x as the subtensions be little or no help at 2.5x?
But thanks for all replies anyway. I have made my choice.

 

[silhouette]

The only FFP low power optic I have experience with is the SS 1-6HD and the benefit of FFP on it is that on 1x you have an illuminated circle with an illuminated center and it's really fast on very close targets. When you twist up to 6x the large outer ring disappears and you have a mil based reticle for much more precise aiming. I'm not sure if any of the scopes you are considering work anything like that but I figured I would put that out there as one reason FFP might be good in a low powered optic.

That seems like a good reticle to have. I didnt want to go lower than a 10x max though.

 

[BobinNC]

I am aware of what you are saying and understand why we have low power on FFP scopes, but cannot really see much point in having FFP in a scope with a max of 10x as the subtensions be little or no help at 2.5x?
But thanks for all replies anyway. I have made my choice.

Silhouette,

Yes, I understand your dilemma. I went though it myself with my recent scope purchase for my AR-15. I had a SWFA 1-4 FFP MIL/MIL mounted on it, and decided I needed more power at the upper end than even a 1-6x would give me. At the same time I could not afford one the new 1-8x range scopes, and due to past experiences I had with an SWFA 3-9x42mm FFP MIL/MIL and IOR 2.5-10x42MM FFP MIL/MIL, and disappearing reticles at low power in wooded areas and against diverse backgrounds. And just looking at the subtensions, I passed on the Vortex 2.5-10x32mm FFP MIL/MIL excellent though it is.

I went with a older design in Leupold's MK4 MR/T 2.5-8x36MM Illuminated TMR w/M2 dials. It's an SFP scope, with mismatched turrets and reticle, but I can actually see the reticle in the woods and against wooded backgrounds at low power W/ and WO/ the Illumination turned on.

Mismatched turrets and reticles are a PITA, and are usually not recommended. But in this case I valued a reticle I can see and use at low power a bit more than hassle of using MILS and MOA at a high power greater than 6x at ranges exceeding 500 yds. My rig is not meant for nor intended for 1Kyd shooting.

The amount of time I will be actually dialing this scope over the 5 MILS provided by the reticle are small. My AR is a 800 yd rifle at max on a good day, and 99% of my shooting will be at 500 yds and in. Usually way in....

 

[bp7178]

I think it really depends on the design of the reticle. I'm not a fan of reticles as found in the SWFA series; that is, a large thick circle with a fine crosshair in the center. IMO, they are less than ideal at anything other than max or min magnification.

Also, reticles like the Vortex Viper PST EBR-1, as found in the 2.5-10x32, loose on low magnification. The reticle is very fine, and the bold parts of the reticle are 9 mils away from the center. Why would you need a 9 mil hold?

I believe a better design for low power FFP scopes are the typical mil-dot (5 mils) in which the duplex posts are blackened and not left hollow. This gives a very quick reference to the center, and is easy to find.

 

[scudzuki]

get the vortex. you will fall in love with this optic.

Clearly you've never used the Sightron SIII 3.5-10x44.

The turrets are excellent.
The glass is fantastic.

FFP in a scope with magnification range that low is not advisable in my experience.

Joe

 

[RobertB]

For the 1-4 or 1-6 FFP can be nice to make it seem like you get best of both worlds. For a precision rifle scope in the 2.5-10 range, I see no reason to have a FFP. In this department is where the SFP shines. The reason I get them on certain rifles: Lowlight shooting, and its pretty much all you really need, no need for more is like a 308 or such. Especially if you have a spotter with you. Single shooters who are trying to spot their own rounds like more power where a shooter/spotter team I think the 2.5-10 SFP is perfect.

Good Luck!