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now I'm getting frustrated

7.62_Reaper

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Minuteman
Mar 5, 2012
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ok im now on my last nerve every time it seems like i have a load that will work for my .338 LM i go back the next day with the exact load to double check it comes out shooting all over the place no where near what it did the previous day.

the load that i developed was:
300gr lapua Scener
89gr of H1000
lapua brass
CCI mag Rifle primers

i fired at a range of 200 yards during the load development, the load above fire a three round group of about a .25 MOA, like stated above i went back the next day to confirm the grouping, and of course it was way off, i use the same distance same mount that the rifle rested in and the conditions where similar.

im not sure why this is happening but this isnt the first time this has happen, i have checked and double checked everything i cant figure this out, any help would be appreciated.
 
i have checked the scope, it is a NF 5.5X22 could see anything wrong.
the rifle was built by Dave Viers so i highly doubt that there is something wrong with the rifle.
 
Yup, verify that your mount or rings are still properly torqued. .338LM is very good at vibrating non-loqtited screws loose over time (you'd be surprised) and even a subtle loosening of the mount or rings will rapidly open up your groups. Also, is your bore excessively fouled with copper? Some are more sensitive to this than others and it's been my experience that this can sometimes be the culprit where you have a day of great shooting but when you take the rifle out next time the groups open up.
 
Try a different scope on your rig.

This may be right, but I'd look at my action screws first. I hate to say this to you, but if you're anything like me, I'm only good for group shooting about every third time.
The other day, during development I shot 1/4" group at 200, messed around, shot one more, .312", sounds ok, but I shoot 1" dots, one group was at 2 o'clock, the second at 7 o'clock, WTF. So I just banged moa steel out to 1100 yards with only one miss, I'm running with the load.
 
i just checked the screws on the scope and they are go to go. there shouldn't be too much copper in the barrel it only has 37 rounds through it. as far as cleaning it i run a bore snake through the barrel until there isn't any visible fouling.

i just started loads using Retumbo i'll keep you posted with the results.
 
i just checked the screws on the scope and they are go to go. there shouldn't be too much copper in the barrel it only has 37 rounds through it. as far as cleaning it i run a bore snake through the barrel until there isn't any visible fouling.

i just started loads using Retumbo i'll keep you posted with the results.

37 rounds total on gun or since it was last cleaned? If new it could have alot of build up in first few rounds.
 
Like others pointed out do you suspect any issues on the glass or mounting hardware?
I am asking because 90% of the issues I see are related to problems in this area.
Most 338 will have no problem printing inside moa all day long even without segregating and measuring every single charge.
I would start by checking max COAL not by the magazine but the chamber. Many VLDs are jump sensitive.
I had good luck with retumbo.
 
37 rounds is not enough to be confident in your load if you've done this more than once. It's borderline for one load, and that's if you stumble on it early. What you're seeing is a lucky group that doesn't repeat the next day. You have to shoot more.

Use 5 shot groups. More than one per charge. Don't be surprised if it takes 50-100 rounds to work up one good load that you can be confident in. I'll likely catch flak for this, but it's true. Otherwise you are just guessing. I know, this sucks for a .338 LM, but that's the way it goes.
 
Parallax. Gets me a lot.

Since your shots are already all over the place. Might as well check "ALL" your screws and retorque them again (with/without loctite).

I had this problem not to long ago.... with over 500 rounds through the rifle without any cleaning and such. I found 3 loose screws (2 scope base and rear action screw.), and while I was at it.. I gave the boom stick a good cleaning. After all that, It started grouping nicely again :)
 
Hi,
I am new to the forum but please let me suggest something.

A good formula to go by is:

Optics.
If a mount is there rails should be true and bedded if needed and bolts blue locktited at a minimum. Steel is prefered.
Rings with 4 bolts minimum, torqued to spec and blue locktited (do not over torque) or can crash the tube. Steel is prefered.
Wait for final torking and after the position is adjusted and rings should be stacked forward against the mount/slot.
Then the zeroing comes into place. Slightly canted optics are popular but that is a different story and it would not be the
reason for a system to show inconsistent results at zero.

Chamber.
Find max COAL first. Inspect chamber and lands that should be fine as it is a new rifle. It is rare but I have seen rifles
where mistakes were made. Unless the rifle came with the groups from test fire the rifle one should check this.
Some manufactures provide targets from these tests as proof of sub moa or sub 1/2 moa capability.

Reloads.
Start with max COAL and backout 10 thousands. Create 2 spreads for each load using the same variables. 5 shot spreads work for me.
Start with accuracy load. Something 2 to 8% below max. Never change more than one thing at the time between every two spreads
otherwise you will not be able to identify if it was it made a difference, the charge, primer, the COAL or you.
Might want to check for concentricity and for COAL use a bullet gauge too. MEasuring from the bullet tip is inaccurate.
Write everything down!

Shooting.
Get on the ground. 338 like other heavy rifles with heavy rounds are easier to drive from prone.


Like others said, with those many rounds shot the rifle is not broken in yet and it is hard to come to any conclusions
but there should not be any reason why one doesn't see some below MOA accuracy and repeatability. Reloading has
many rewards but be patient and go over every single thing over and over again. Don't discard human error.
The 338L presented some interested challenges for me.

I hope some of these ideas help you.
 
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5 is plenty and a convenient number. Each row in the ammo box has 2 strings. 5x2=10. I have the ammo boxes coded
so when I am working in the reloads in the field I can take notes on characteristics of a specific row/string.
I never change any variables before I shoot two 5 shot strings. I take the best 4 from each spread.
I go from front to back and left to right. Different people do different things, whatever works for you.
During training for competition one might 2, 5, 10 or 15 strings, depending on the objective at hand.
 
To the Op,
I am just wondering what type of 338LM are you shooting? It wouldn't be a Savage would it?
 
perhaps you just might need some more time with the rifle. 37 rounds isn't a whole lot of trigger time on a 338LM. Rifles are like cars. Sure you know how to drive, but switching from a pickup to a semi might take some adjustment. I'd put some more rounds down range before making an accurate assessment on load/accuracy of the system. Making sure your equipment is locked down to spec is always a requirment as stated above. Just my opinion.....
 
I agree with several here.
If it's a savage rifle with a factory barrel I'd expect inconsistent grouping as the norm. For some reason savage can't make a consistent shooting 338lm rifle. Some guys get lucky, sure, but my experience is they don't shoot well.
37 rounds total on the barrel, any barrel, is not enough to get it consistent. If this is a factory savage or Remington and you didn't do a break in you may benefit from removing all copper fouling and then do a shoot-clean-shoot for 10-20 rounds, removing all copper between shots. Then shoot a 5 round group and see if there is a significant amount more fouling than the single shot cleanings. If not then you're gtg. Now you just need to build up a copper equilibrium before you can expect consistency. I have a fairly new Bartlein barreled 338lm. Because it is match grade and hand lapped from the factory it only took 10 rounds to break in and was shooting sub half for the next 15 rounds. But velocities were slower than expected for my accuracy Load at first. It took over 100 rounds and no copper removal(just a pass with a bore snake with a little hoppes on it after every range session) to get the speed and consistency up.
FWIW, I won't remove copper from my barrel for quite some time. I might do it once from now to the end of the barrels life - maybe twice if I can get more than 1500 rounds of useful life.


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I also think you might be low on your charge of h1000. It and retumbo both perform best at near max load. Work up of course...

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Load development can be frustrating, especially with a 338. Have patience, it will most likely take quite a few founds yet to get settled on a load. I'm 130 rounds in on my 338 and I still have a couple more things I want to try before I settle. Take your time, it will come.
 
do you guys fire three round groups for load development or five?

5 is better statistically. The math is complex, but if you're just measuring group size, you get more info out of a 5 shot group than a three shot group. In other words 3 five shot groups is better than 5 three shot groups. 7 shot groups are actually ideal, but only slightly better than 5, which is more convenient.

But the kicker, and what is not appreciated by many on this board, is that one five shot group isn't enough to know much of anything. Three groups is still fuzzy. You won't get solid confidence until something closer to 10 groups. And that's per load. Of course, getting that kind of confidence is impractical, if you have to shoot 50 rounds of 10 different loads on a rifle with a short barrel life, you'll never get to do anything but develop loads and change barrels. So you have to accept a certain level of uncertainty in your loads and balance confidence with barrel life and the time you spend in load dev vs shooting. Only you can make that choice.

For me, I like to spend about 100 rounds working up a load with a single powder/bullet combo. Three five shot groups per load. If you pick a powder and bullet wisely (ask around first!), you can usually find something good and know it's probably not a fluke. If a barrel lasts 2000 rounds, that's 5% of it's life, which hurts, but it's better than struggling to understand why your rifle is inconsistent for 100% of it's life. For a barrel that lasts 5000 or 7000 rounds, take your time. Figure out a good one.

*For info on the stats, check out this article: http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/group_statistics.htm
 
To the Op,
I am just wondering what type of 338LM are you shooting? It wouldn't be a Savage would it?

my rifle was made by Dave Viers (Viers Co.)
28" benchmark barrel
jewell trigger
manners T5A carbon stock
stiller tac .338 action
 
As above.

Also, what are you measuring COAL with? FYI, I just had this problem a few months ago and turned out to be my caliper.
 
If you are having large groups after small groups I would suspect the scope or bases. The .338 has a lot of recoil and it can make things move around. The first thing I would do is switch to another scope. My money would be on the scope, rings, or bases in that order.
 
ok so i double checked the scope, rings and base everything is lock tight and is torqued down to the proper poundage per Night Force's standers. i fired another 15 rounds with no noticeable difference in groupings so i to me i have to rule out the scope, rings etc..
 
Reaper,

It sounds like the mounting is good. You won't believe how much cheek weld, parallax adjustment can screw you over. If you have a load shooting good. Make more of those rounds and do an exercise. Shoot three rounds without taking off your cheek off the rifle. Then take your face off the gun and then put it back and shoot another three. If you zero changes then you didn't setup your optics correctly. I will say it again cheek weld and Parallax adjustment. If you have your parallax setup correctly you should be able to wiggle your head around and the cross hairs will not move. If not, you have to play with BOTH the eye piece and knob adjustments to get it setup correctly. For your cheek weld you should be able to have the scope on highest power and relax your face on the cheek rest and close your eyes. When you re open them you should have a full picture in your view. If you have to move your head any direction to get the full view back, you don't have the cheek weld setup correctly.

Also, if you have all your other shooting fundamentals right you should be able to shoot a group with your eyes closed and still have a good group. This sounds crazy but it works. When I was instructed by some military snipers to perform this exercise this showed that if you have a good setup, you don't need to look at your target.
 
thanks for all the help everyone, my cheek weld defiantly needs adjustment. im also going to go back and do a proper ladder test, i think i may have screwed that up in the beginning, to be honest after rereading the sticky on the reloading section about ladder testing i know i screwed it up........i kinda feel like an idiot now, well anyway thanks again for all your help.
 
I'm still new at long range. Thanks to everyone contributing your time and info

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My Bartlein 338 has never shot worse than MOA with any handloads I've launched through it at 100 yards. Most are half or better. It's either the shooter(happens to the best of them - shoot tight one day shoot crap the next), something in the reloading process, or something coming loose.

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When it comes to reloading here is what I learned gets you to a load quickest. Forget ladder loads. Get "Quickload" software. It is expensive but it will make up for it fast with less loads you have to try. With the length of your barrel you have certain harmonic frequencies that it has. Basically you have to time it so the bullet leaves the barrel at the precise time when it is at a certain harmonic frequency.

I can help you out the first time. PM me and I can run the numbers for you.

Also, depending on how far you plan to shoot, you have to be a lot more scrutinous on your reloading in order to keep the consistency there. Any little change between loads and that means you can be way off when you are shooting some considerable distance. If you are interested I can explain in more detail.
 
my rifle was made by Dave Viers (Viers Co.)
28" benchmark barrel
jewell trigger
manners T5A carbon stock
stiller tac .338 action

Glad to here it's not a Savage due to their issues and believe me " I know". As some have posted the 338LM can sometimes be a stinker to get your load right (especially if it's your first) and componets aren't cheap. I purchased QL to help in this process after spending $$$ to develope mine. Don't know your builder but you have good componets in your build but recheck your equipment for proper alignment and torque. Next I suspect (and don't take this wrong) the shooter first, with only a small number of rounds down the tube you will need to become a good driver. Next would be your reloads, you are working with a large caliber and need good tools to control your process, H1000 and Retumbo are both good i use 87.5 H1000 in my 30" barrel even though Retumbo is good it's just to dirty for my liking, N570 is also good but $$$,hard to find and temp sensitive. Last would be if your confident in all the above get an experienced shooter to shoot your rig and see the results. When I started shooting my 338 it took about 100rds just to feel confident with my rig and I learned to do this with several range trips...not just 2 or3. Good luck it's a great caliber and lots of fun to shoot.
Sully
 
2njitmf.jpg


here are the results of todays ladder test, this was shot a a range of 490 yards, and the wind was relentless today 10mph with 15mph gust.

i had 11 shots, .010 jammed into the rifling each shot had a different charge in it starting from 85grn to 95grn of retumbo increasing each charge by about 1% (1.grn). from the vertical groupings that i had it looks like shots 5,6,7 and 8 were the best top node group, the vertical separation was 1.31" center to center.

so now i will start the next ladder test using 9 shots starting with a charge of 88.5grn going to 92.5grn of retumbo, and the range will be pushed back to 600 yards.

does this look and sound about right?
 
does this look and sound about right?

No - you must shoot groups. Pick a powder/bullet combo based on what works for others with similar rifles and load up at least 10 rounds per charge weight. Then shoot five shot groups either prone or from a bench, but using a solid rest. Do this at 100 or maybe 200 yards, preferably in calm conditions. Measure the groups. There are no short cuts.

Ladder tests are interesting in that they can tell you if a load is going to be sensitive to powder charge, but they suffer from three problems. One- they are statistically inadequate. One shot per charge tells you very little unless the distance between the impacts is much greater than the accuracy potential of the rifle. This is often the case; you wind up shooting something that looks good, but is in actuality just random noise. Second, they tell you nothing about the accuracy of the load. You can get a pretty insensitive load that won't shoot well and it doesn't help you much. Third, wind is a problem at distances, and wind will cause vertical deflection, which further confuses things. The bottom line is that they're not terribly useful.
 
I wasted about 35 rounds on a ladder test that told me nothing, IME shooting groups is the only way to tell how that powder charge will hold.
 
I agree with several here.
If it's a savage rifle with a factory barrel I'd expect inconsistent grouping as the norm. For some reason savage can't make a consistent shooting 338lm rifle. Some guys get lucky, sure, but my experience is they don't shoot well.
37 rounds total on the barrel, any barrel, is not enough to get it consistent. If this is a factory savage or Remington and you didn't do a break in you may benefit from removing all copper fouling and then do a shoot-clean-shoot for 10-20 rounds, removing all copper between shots. Then shoot a 5 round group and see if there is a significant amount more fouling than the single shot cleanings. If not then you're gtg. Now you just need to build up a copper equilibrium before you can expect consistency. I have a fairly new Bartlein barreled 338lm. Because it is match grade and hand lapped from the factory it only took 10 rounds to break in and was shooting sub half for the next 15 rounds. But velocities were slower than expected for my accuracy Load at first. It took over 100 rounds and no copper removal(just a pass with a bore snake with a little hoppes on it after every range session) to get the speed and consistency up.
FWIW, I won't remove copper from my barrel for quite some time. I might do it once from now to the end of the barrels life - maybe twice if I can get more than 1500 rounds of useful life.


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Thanks for the info, bodyworks. I have had good grouping with my Lilja barrel on my 338, but my velocities are still low for what they should be. I'll keep shooting and see what happens.


Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
 
thanks for all the help everyone, my cheek weld defiantly needs adjustment. im also going to go back and do a proper ladder test, i think i may have screwed that up in the beginning, to be honest after rereading the sticky on the reloading section about ladder testing i know i screwed it up........i kinda feel like an idiot now, well anyway thanks again for all your help.

Don't berate yourself. Just learn from the mistake and move forward. We are all prone to mistakes in some way or another.
Ladder testing can take a bit if trial and error to understand and interpret. I have found that I can shorten my ladder tests by using Chris Long's OBT calculations in conjunction with Quick-Load. Still have to test several powder weight combos, but fewer than a full on ladder test.


Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
 
i just checked the screws on the scope and they are go to go. there shouldn't be too much copper in the barrel it only has 37 rounds through it. as far as cleaning it i run a bore snake through the barrel until there isn't any visible fouling.

i just started loads using Retumbo i'll keep you posted with the results.

Get yourself a coated cleaning rod, bore guide, jag, copper brush along with some Shooters Choice Copper Remover or Montana Black Extreme. With a new barrel I would bet you have copper build up in the throat and you will find this out after you run the brush through the barrel and some patches with the copper remover in there. My rule of thumb for magnums is after the barrel break in is done 25 to 30 rounds and I clean them. Some guys will disagree with this but I find it works and if you talk to most guys that shoot comps after each string they clean their rifles and there is a reason for it.
 
2njitmf.jpg


here are the results of todays ladder test, this was shot a a range of 490 yards, and the wind was relentless today 10mph with 15mph gust.

i had 11 shots, .010 jammed into the rifling each shot had a different charge in it starting from 85grn to 95grn of retumbo increasing each charge by about 1% (1.grn). from the vertical groupings that i had it looks like shots 5,6,7 and 8 were the best top node group, the vertical separation was 1.31" center to center.

so now i will start the next ladder test using 9 shots starting with a charge of 88.5grn going to 92.5grn of retumbo, and the range will be pushed back to 600 yards.

does this look and sound about right?

By the looks of your ladder I'd say you've found the upper node! Also it's obvious to me where the node isn't. Never a bad idea to reconfirm with your next ladder though. Not a bad idea to pick a calm morning either because when in the node the horizontal will tighten up too making the best charge more obvious.

It's good you picked Hodgdon Extreme powder to use. That way the velocity will stay in the node till the barrel wears later on at which time you'll need to add more powder to keep the velocity up.

The only time a ladder hasn't helped me is when there was something wrong with the rifle, scope, etc, otherwise doing a ladder has been a shortcut to finding what speed a barrel likes.

Do you have a decent chrono? Because you'll want a load with lower ES/SD.

BTW...just because a load shoots tight at 100Y doesn't necessarily mean it will shoot tight at distance. Which is what a ladder helps to show.
 
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2njitmf.jpg


here are the results of todays ladder test, this was shot a a range of 490 yards, and the wind was relentless today 10mph with 15mph gust.

i had 11 shots, .010 jammed into the rifling each shot had a different charge in it starting from 85grn to 95grn of retumbo increasing each charge by about 1% (1.grn). from the vertical groupings that i had it looks like shots 5,6,7 and 8 were the best top node group, the vertical separation was 1.31" center to center.

so now i will start the next ladder test using 9 shots starting with a charge of 88.5grn going to 92.5grn of retumbo, and the range will be pushed back to 600 yards.

does this look and sound about right?

You should of contacted me if your having problems. Jamming bullets into the lands don't normally work well with magnum chambers. The best test is to start loads with the bullet just kissing the lands and work backwards. You will find most rifles with High BC bullets like them set around .010 to .015 away from the lands. I belived the test groups i shot were 95gns of Retumbo with 300 SMK bullets seated .010 away.

Dave
 
Yeah, if you're still running the Lapua bullets jamming ain't the way to go. Factory Lapua ammo has like a .100+ jump on my tac-match reamed rifle and shoots sub MOA without blinking, and consistent.

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No - you must shoot groups. Pick a powder/bullet combo based on what works for others with similar rifles and load up at least 10 rounds per charge weight. Then shoot five shot groups either prone or from a bench, but using a solid rest. Do this at 100 or maybe 200 yards, preferably in calm conditions. Measure the groups. There are no short cuts.

Ladder tests are interesting in that they can tell you if a load is going to be sensitive to powder charge, but they suffer from three problems. One- they are statistically inadequate. One shot per charge tells you very little unless the distance between the impacts is much greater than the accuracy potential of the rifle. This is often the case; you wind up shooting something that looks good, but is in actuality just random noise. Second, they tell you nothing about the accuracy of the load. You can get a pretty insensitive load that won't shoot well and it doesn't help you much. Third, wind is a problem at distances, and wind will cause vertical deflection, which further confuses things. The bottom line is that they're not terribly useful.

I have to disagree with you sir.
1) What is statistically inaccurate about a ladder test? What statistics can you bring to the table that disprove the ladder test?? A load will always be sensitive to a powder charge, its when you get close to a node that the charge can seem to be insensitive. That's why the ladder test will show a "group".
2)One shot per charge tells you quite a bit as far as where the node is (assuming the nut behind the bolt is capable). The reason we do this is so when we find the node, we can excuse a little over or under charge or variations in powder temp or whatnot, and not see it as much at distance. Also why we do it at 300 yards or preferably longer is because the differences show up better. There is no "random noise" here.
3)This tells you the very foundation on the accuracy of the load. What is accuracy? Consistency! What is consistency? Doing the same thing over and over the exact same way. In handloading, we strive to make the bullet come out of the tube at the exact same speed and the exact same.....BARREL NODE (obviously other principles as well). If you manage to find the barrel node, you can find a spot in the harmonic pattern where for a fraction of a second, the barrel "pauses" its vibration, and therefore we can use that consistent node, in order to achieve consistency.
4) Wind can cause vertical deflection, HOWEVER, do you really see the effects of it at 500 yards or less? Look at the OPs ladder results, that's 10mph with 15mph gusts at 500 along with rounds coming out at different integers of the harmonic sequence. Not a whole lot of later dispersion, huh? Talking about vertical wind deflection in this is irrelevant.
Bottom line: they are very helpful. Of course, this is better refined when you do it again with smaller powder increments and farther distance.

After you get the initial info from that, yes then we can play around with jam or jump, neck tension and all the other parameter, but with the ladder test, you get a very solid baseline and you have used less rounds than shooting groups.
 
One single ladder test doesn't account for shooter error especially at distance. Group testing at short range doesn't always dictate how a load will perform at distance either.
In my opinion three simultaneous ladders are better, which is essentially what the OCW method is presented by Newberry...

ive since gone to using OBT and have had exceptional results...I've done both OCW and OBT And both will produce an accurate load if done correctly....

there are methods for load development in existence that work rather well.

OP, have you had anyone else shoot your rifle??
 
A couple months ago I tried a ladder test at 400Y in .1 grain increments on my new 6x47L barrel. I fired 24 shots on a calm morning letting the barrel cool between each shot. The two nodes were obvious doing a ladder this way and ruled out happenstance error. I gotta brag a little bit...the upper node put 5 consecutive shots into .9" !!!

I picked the middle of the node and left the seating depth alone then this month won a our local long range match. It almost seemed like this load was acting like a laser guided missile!
 
A ladder in .1 gr increments will proabably afford better confidence in identifying a load than say .5 gr increments.. But it also means you need to be in that 2.5gr bracket of charges to shoot that small of charges....you can always shoot one ladder to get close and then do another in smaller increments...That's some good shootig at 400 yards :)