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Need some help reloading .308

R

RunningDirty

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 19, 2013
14
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Hello everyone. This is my first post on here. I have been lurking around and there is some really cool stuff on here (most far out of my budget lol). Anyway... A little bit ago, with all the scarcity of ammo, I decided to get into reloading. I started with some easy stuff, .40 S&W and 9mm for my Glock 22 (yes, I also have the Lone Wofl conversion barrel for 9mm). I basically loaded this until it would cycle reliably, and I have a pretty good load for both calibers. Recently, I finally got the components to reload for my Weatherby Vanguard S2 in .308. I have a Mueller 4-16x Mil-Dot Illuminated scope. I actually just sighted it in today. A couple weeks ago, I ordered 100 once fired 7.62x51 brass off of Amazon for about $26 to my door. Today I finally got around to trying to make up some .308 loads. I have the Lee RGB .308 2 die set. It has a full length sizer and a bullet seater die. So after running a 7.62x51 brass through the full length sizer, and then trimming it to spec with Lee case trimming components, I tried to put the brass in my rifle to make sure it would chamber before continuing on. It didn't. This made absolutely no sense to me. If a 7.62x51 brass (supposedly almost identical to .308 brass) was pressed through a full length sizing die and then trimmed, why in the world would it not fit in my .308 rifle? I thought maybe it was just that it hadn't been fully reloaded, so I continued on. Put a CCI 200 primer in it, 42 grains of Varget, and pressed a Hornady 165gr soft point to 2.750" OAL. I tried to chamber it in the rifle again. And again, the bolt would close all the way in, but it would not turn down. I am completely stumbled by this. I sent Lee a message and said that maybe that die is out of spec because it makes no sense why a full length sizer would not set it to .308 specs. Any ideas guys?
 
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Also, another question. When loading for the pistols, I would work up a load to make the semi-auto pistol cycle reliably. How do I work up a load for my .308? Obviously, using .308 brass which I have, but do I work up until it shows signs of overpressure and then come back down a little? Will this load be the most accurate? Because this is with soft points, I am looking to use these for hunting. Thanks in advanced to all that reply
 
Sounds like you need to go further down on the die and bump the shoulder back some. Did you put the case in a case gauge after sizing?
 
I do not have a case gauge. I have a micrometer and a caliper that I use to do my measuring. I am confused about the full length sizer because there is no way to adjust it. The only adjustment that can be made (to my knowledge) is to move the decapper in and out.
 
As SWThomas said, you need to resize the case farther. This means you have to loosen the die in your press and run it down some...maybe as little as 1/4 turn. Since you don't have a case gauge, (I would pick one up right away, it's a match for your chamber and will tell you when the brass has been sized enough to fit a standard .308 chamber. I haven't seen a gauge for 7.62x51, but a .308 win works quite well.) Sounds like your trying to resize military NATO brass like lake city. Those have probably been fires through a machine gun. They tend to be headspaced rather loosely to allow easy extraction in a hurry. The brass tends to be very tough and tends to rebound a bit when it comes out of the press. If pushing the shoulder back a bit by lowering the press a bit at a time and trying the brass in your chamber doesn't work, my suggestion is to try annealing the brass. This entails heating the brass to about 650 degrees in a deep socket and spinning the brass thru a propane flame for about 6 to 8 seconds. Try to find a description on the net on how to do this...It's kind of a pain, but it is the only way I have been able to reliably resize some of this military brass. I hope I haven't confused or deterred you from using this brass. It's really good brass once you get it sized and get rid of the crimp in the primer pocket. Good luck on your reloading. I find it a rewarding learning experience.....
 
Resizing

Agree with others that you need to move the die down to bump the shoulders back. You may also need a Small Base die to get this brass back into spec however. You need to identify if it is a headspace isssue or it the case head has expanded.
 
When I hold up one of these 7.62x51 brass by a .308 brass, the only noticeable difference I can see is in the neck area. The angles looks different
 
What FUNHOG said ++
If you run the brass from you shooting session today through the die will it chamber? If so, then you need you 'unknown' brass sized better.

I wouldn't go chewing on Hornday's butt when you specified you are using Lee dies.

If you want to find out if it's the dies, I could size a few down for you. I have no problems setting back machine gun brass with my setup.

Do you have a loading manual? Get one or more. It sounds like you need to spend a little time reading the reloading stickys, especially reloading 101, at the top and to find a mentor to get you started in "how to find a good load". I'd be glad to talk to you.
 
RunningDirty said:
How can I move the die down further if it is touching the shellholder?
Click to expand...

It needs to bump the shellholder with some force.

Put the piston all the way up until it touches the die, then screw the die down another 1/8th to 1/4 turn.

762x51 brass is often machine gun fired and blown out so will need a bit more love on the resizing part. When I get it I always run it through a small base full lenght sizer die.
 
Yeah. I took the .308 brass from today and ran it through the sizer. I loaded a few up and they work fine in my rifle. I see no point in buying a reloading manual because I can get all of the information online (Hodgdon and most other brands will have loads online or will tell you some loads if you ask). I'm not at all getting mad at Hornady. Oops. I better correct my original post. Not sure why I put Hornady. They have nothing to do with it. I meant I sent the Lee guys a message. My bad.

Also, I tried screwing the dies down farther than when they touch the shellholder. I squeeze it all the way and pull it out. And it still stays the same and will not fully chamber in my rifle. I even tried annealing one with a propane torch and have had no luck. I think that the only thing left could be one of those small base full length sizing dies. Any other suggestions?
 
Thanks for all the help guys. It seems as though the Lee dies are fine and the 7.62x51 brass is just not usable with what I have. I am just going to sell it and get some .308 commercial brass as this will be the cheapest route. No point in buying loads of equipment for just 100 brass.

But my next question is: how do I work up a load for my .308? Do I work up until it shows signs of overpressure and then come back down a little? Will this load be the most accurate? Because this is with soft points, I am looking to use these for hunting.
 
To work up a load, see this - OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

When you resize rifle cases, you may need to screw the die in until the press cams over on the die. So you make it touch, then screw it in a bit at a time until it bumps the shoulder back.

There is little difference between 7.62 and 308 brass. Lake City mil brass and Lapua 308 brass have about the same internal capacity. And 7.62 is actually loaded to LOWER pressures than 308.
 
RunningDirty said:
Yeah. I took the .308 brass from today and ran it through the sizer. I loaded a few up and they work fine in my rifle. I see no point in buying a reloading manual because I can get all of the information online (Hodgdon and most other brands will have loads online or will tell you some loads if you ask). I'm not at all getting mad at Hornady. Oops. I better correct my original post. Not sure why I put Hornady. They have nothing to do with it. I meant I sent the Lee guys a message. My bad.

Also, I tried screwing the dies down farther than when they touch the shellholder. I squeeze it all the way and pull it out. And it still stays the same and will not fully chamber in my rifle. I even tried annealing one with a propane torch and have had no luck. I think that the only thing left could be one of those small base full length sizing dies. Any other suggestions?
Click to expand...

There's a lot more in a reloading manual than just load data. There's a lot of information like what we're talking about here. I would highly recommend buying at least one reloading manual and reading it from the beginning to the start of the load data. That will be an enlightening experience.
 
What lube are you using? If it is the spray stuff, throw it away! If it is all you have, spray it on the brass and size it right away, do not wait till it dries.

Try this also, run a piece of brass into the die. Now look to see if there is a gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. The frames flex. If you have light between the two, you need to screw the die in even farther. There is no need for a small base die.
 
Mad_Charlie said:
Competition Shellholder Sets | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment

RCBS Precision Mic 308 Winchester

You need to know what your headspace is, and bump the shoulder back a little, some rifles are a little short on headspace.

The tools above will enable you to fit your cases to your chamber, they should anyway.
Click to expand...

They won't. If a die is bottomed out on the shelholder and the shoulder is still not bumped far enough the comp shelholders won't fix it. They only go in the + direction from a standard shelholder, the case is effectively held further away from the die as the shelholders progress in dimension. If you truly have a case where the shoulder is not getting sized back enough it is not all that uncommon to have to remove a bit off the bottom of a die or take a bit off the top of a standard shelholder.
 
I can screw the die down so that when I press the case all the way up as far as it can go, the press' arm is only half way up. This surely is making the die go all the way until it touches the shellholder. It must be that the shellholder/die is too thick to allow the die to set the shoulder back far enough on the 7.62x51 brass. I'll just sell it and pick up some .308 brass to reload. Not worth all the extra trouble, really. Thanks for all the help guys.
 
If the die is not setting the shoulder back far enough, different brass is not the answer.

As it will not size ANY brass far enough.
 
RunningDirty said:
But my next question is: how do I work up a load for my .308? Do I work up until it shows signs of overpressure and then come back down a little? Will this load be the most accurate? Because this is with soft points, I am looking to use these for hunting.
Click to expand...

And once again questions that can be answered reading a manual. I'm sending you my phone #, call me and I'll give you an idea how to work up a load with your components.
 
Dude, just toss the LC and get some commercial brass. There are not any real ACTUAL dimensional differences in 7.62x51 and 308 Win. The problem, as has been stated above, is that you bought machinegun residue. Some dies will push the shoulders back enough and others won't. Since you are just getting started, it would be easier to just buy commercial brass than it would be to marry yourself to that abortion you're working with.

7.62 is absolutely not loaded to lower pressures than 308 Win. If anyone would ever bother to look, he might see that the 7.62 pressures are rated in CUP and 308 are usually rated in the more modern PSI. So when you look at these things it's not 51,000 PSI vs 60,000 PSI (7.62 & 308 respectively), it's 51,000 CUP vs 60,000 PSI. Apples and oranges... Don't believe me? Chrono some M80 or M118, and see the velocities. Only way to make velocity out of a rifle, and it is pressure.

Here are some helpful links:
Fulton Armory: What's the Difference between .308 Winchester & 7.62x51mm NATO?
 
Pinecone, I said that my .308 brass works in the die. I have a couple of those loaded up already. It is just the 7.62 brass so I am going to sell it and get commercial .308 brass.

No1, thanks for the offer. I looked around and read some more and I think I am going to set up 3-4 cartridges with loads varying about .3 grains and get groups to find where the node is for my rifle. I am pretty busy with college tests and projects, but thanks again for the offer.
 
RunningDirty said:
Pinecone, I said that my .308 brass works in the die. I have a couple of those loaded up already. It is just the 7.62 brass so I am going to sell it and get commercial .308 brass.

No1, thanks for the offer. I looked around and read some more and I think I am going to set up 3-4 cartridges with loads varying about .3 grains and get groups to find where the node is for my rifle. I am pretty busy with college tests and projects, but thanks again for the offer.
Click to expand...

You need to take something like this seriously and stop making excuses for not doing things the proper (safe) way. Buy a friggin manual and read it!!! Until you act as smart as you think you are, I'm done giving you any advice. Good luck and hopefully you don't injure yourself or worse.

Also, it's pretty lame to use college as an excuse not to call someone for reloading advice. Seriously? You have all this time to play with brass and develop loads, but you can't pick up the phone for 5 minutes??? Time management much?
 
You still have not set the dies right to begin with by the way you are describing the Arm is half way down. Un screw the die and raise the ram all the way up. Now screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Lower the ram and screw the die in 1/2 a turn. The ram has to be able to cam over. Size a piece of the brass again and see if it chambers. Just the brass. You still have not listed what type of lube you are using. What is it.
 
Tomme, I am saying that I can lower the die so much that the arm only goes half way up. I know how to use them correctly but I am saying that with the arm only going half way up, I know that the die is going down as far as it can. I am using Lee Resizing Lube (a white paste) that came with the press when I bought it.
 
SWThomas said:
You need to take something like this seriously and stop making excuses for not doing things the proper (safe) way. Buy a friggin manual and read it!!! Until you act as smart as you think you are, I'm done giving you any advice. Good luck and hopefully you don't injure yourself or worse.

Also, it's pretty lame to use college as an excuse not to call someone for reloading advice. Seriously? You have all this time to play with brass and develop loads, but you can't pick up the phone for 5 minutes??? Time management much?
Click to expand...

Excuse me, sir. There is absolutely no reason for you to have that kind of attitude with me. I have been as kind and grateful as I can be for all the information you guys have given me. I am taking it very seriously. I do not know how you are assuming I am not acting as "smart as I think I am." I am coming here to get advice on something I do not know about. There is no need to pay my money to buy a book when I can get every single bit of information in it (and even more), online. Unless you want to send me a book, I am not getting one. Thanks for your advice, prick. Take it somewhere else.
 
You still do not have the die set up right. Adjust it as I said. Then report back. If you have it adjusted like you state it will not work right.
 
Yeah, die not set up correctly.

Press will only deliver max leverage at top of stroke.
So, screw the die all the way out and put on bench.
Lower handle on press until ram is at top of travel.
Screw in die until it impacts the ram.
Lower ram and then give die one more half turn into press.
Then you'll feel it "cam over" at top of stroke.

Then you should be doing it properly.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Aeon1 said:
They won't. If a die is bottomed out on the shelholder and the shoulder is still not bumped far enough the comp shelholders won't fix it. They only go in the + direction from a standard shelholder, the case is effectively held further away from the die as the shelholders progress in dimension. If you truly have a case where the shoulder is not getting sized back enough it is not all that uncommon to have to remove a bit off the bottom of a die or take a bit off the top of a standard shelholder.
Click to expand...

I could scan the instructions to show you that they DO bump the shoulder back in increments of .002, but I'm really pretty tired right now. basically you start with the 10 and work down, if that doesn't do it, yeah, you need to take some off of the shell holder or die. preferably the shell holder.

I haven't had any yet that I couldn't get where I wanted them, really handy for cases of different headstamps. I am using Redding dies
 
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RunningDirty said:
Excuse me, sir. There is absolutely no reason for you to have that kind of attitude with me. I have been as kind and grateful as I can be for all the information you guys have given me. I am taking it very seriously. I do not know how you are assuming I am not acting as "smart as I think I am." I am coming here to get advice on something I do not know about. There is no need to pay my money to buy a book when I can get every single bit of information in it (and even more), online. Unless you want to send me a book, I am not getting one. Thanks for your advice, prick. Take it somewhere else.
Click to expand...

so you will spend the $$$ for equipment, brass, powder ..... but not on a book or 3 - it is called false economy, if you are still doing this years from now you can look back at your pig-headed attitude in the posts and recognize that you were a fool

in the mean time, you could do everyone a favor and go back to lurking/ reading
 
Thank you very much to all the helpful people on here (especially tomme and farmer). I did what you guys recommended (put the die down until it touches, then another half turn) and ran my 7.62x51 brass in it. Somehow, it worked. Thank you guys for being kind and patient with helping me understand and fix my problem (unlike some other people here in this forum). I am not even going to respond to the negativity in here anymore because it isn't worth arguing with keyboard warriors.

Again, thank you very much for all the help guys. Now I can get on to loading up some .308.
 
I only read the first few posts from the OP, but one item I found to be incredibly useful was the body die offered by Redding. If you run into a wall reloading the 308, drop me a pm or e-mail. I've been reloading 308 for 25+ years, and what I have found is that 7.62 brass can be a real bear to resize. I have taken to using Redding's Imperial sizing wax or Horandy's resizing wax. The body die always seems to be the best starting point for me when resizing mil brass, which I use in my autoloaders.
 
Mad_Charlie said:
I could scan the instructions to show you that they DO bump the shoulder back in increments of .002, but I'm really pretty tired right now. basically you start with the 10 and work down, if that doesn't do it, yeah, you need to take some off of the shell holder or die. preferably the shell holder.

I haven't had any yet that I couldn't get where I wanted them, really handy for cases of different headstamps. I am using Redding dies
Click to expand...

I think we're looking at this from opposite directions and both understand how they work.

I won't argue that the comp shellholders will bump shoulders back in .002" increments starting with the +.010" and working down towards a standard shellholder. The standard shellholder is effectively your .000" shelholder and a comp shellholder will not bump a shoulder back more than a standard shellholder. So I will stand by my original statements "If a die is bottomed out on the shelholder and the shoulder is still not bumped far enough the comp shelholders won't fix it. They only go in the + direction from a standard shelholder, the case is effectively held further away from the die as the shelholders progress in dimension. If you truly have a case where the shoulder is not getting sized back enough it is not all that uncommon to have to remove a bit off the bottom of a die or take a bit off the top of a standard shelholder.". So again, if someone has a standard shellholder and can't get the shoulder bumped back far enough to chamber then a comp shellholder will not help him.

FWIW I have owned comp shelholders since Redding started selling them (that's a lotta years) and I actively use them.
 
George 63, not sure why you deleted your comment but I still have it in my email. You came to MY thread where I asked for some help and you have not given one single bit of information. if you are just going to run around the forum and put people down, do us all a favor and just git rid of your account. Didn't your mommy ever say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?"
 
because after looking at it, it did not fit in - try that sometime

though you are the OP and any help is passing you by, there does appear to be some that are benefiting from this discussion

- I will have no worries about your opinions, like others that come with your attitude - you will not be around long
 
Quit whining, get a reloading manual, and some balls. People he don't put up with much shit. College sucks up your time? Join the club.i commute 3 hours a day, work 8-10 hour days, have a family,and attend grad school. No complaints here. I listened to members here, learned ow to reload, and still make it all work out.
 
Machine gun brass gets stretched at the head laterally because of oversized chambers. That and the combination of getting yanked out very quickly can lead to a very thin web even after just being fired once. Depends on how bad the headspace was on the machine gun. In any case, no amount of shoulder bumping will help you because that's not where the problem lies. No regular dies are small enough in dimension to deal with the spring back of a head and web that out of spec. They just aren't.

The only solution (as stated previously) is a small base body die that squeezes the head and web back to a usable spec (hopefully). But even then you may only get a couple firings before a nasty web ring appears (once the web is stretched, there's no going back). Machine gun brass is no fun.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/05/reloading-case-head-separations.html
 
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I had the same trouble with LC brass that was shot in an M60. No matter how I set the die there was always a space between the shell holder and the dies which was not present with any other brass. I used my Wilson case length gauge to determine if the brass was the problem. To see if a head of the brass has to much expansion insert the brass head first into the case length gauge. If the head expansion is OK the head of the case should go AT LEAST half way into the die, usually more. With the brass I had it would barely go into the case length gauge at all. I suspect that was also your problem in addition to incorrectly setting up your die.
I would listen to what many others have said a get the Lyman reloading manual. It really helps the novice reloader. Additionally a case length gauge is what to need to properly asses if your brass and hand loads are in spec. In my 40 years of reloading I have seen many reloaders trying to get by with just vernier calipers and a micrometer it just doesn't work for properly determining if you brass/reloads are in spec. A Wilson case length gauge will save you a lot of headaches in the future. I own one in every caliber I regularly shoot.

PS I even tried my small base body die and it still would not properly resize the case head. I retired all that brass.
 
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The point was, we told you at the beginning to set the die properly.

But you would not listen, and came with all sorts of excuses and other solutions.

And end the, guess what, the die was set wrong.

The people here offered help. YOU ignored it, then felt they were attacking you.

No, you were not listening.

Many of the people here have been reloading a lot more years than you have been alive. That does not make them smarter, it just means they have already made almost every mistake there is, and figured it out. There was no internet to ask questions in the "old" days.
 
Pinecone said:
The point was, we told you at the beginning to set the die properly.

But you would not listen, and came with all sorts of excuses and other solutions.

And end the, guess what, the die was set wrong.

The people here offered help. YOU ignored it, then felt they were attacking you.

No, you were not listening.

Many of the people here have been reloading a lot more years than you have been alive. That does not make them smarter, it just means they have already made almost every mistake there is, and figured it out. There was no internet to ask questions in the "old" days.
Click to expand...

Very well put sir.
 
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