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Precision lr-308/ar10 help

bigjake83

Golden Shellback
Full Member
Minuteman
  • May 19, 2013
    4,773
    3,363
    Southern Idaho
    Im looking to put together a very specific build and Im looking to get a list of precision gas gun makers, could you all please throw some names out there of some builders who are not afraid to work and think outside of the box, I have some really specific ideas on how I want this AR built but no one who i have talked to yet will work with me..Thanks for your time

    Jacob
     
    No.. it's not because Im in cali. I knew i was going to be asked this question so tomorrow ill put my idea..mostly it's based on the science of the AR and minimizing and isolating the harmonics.
     
    Ok. You can probably disregard my above recommendation. Andrew is a great guy who can put together anything you want, with any parts you want, but he is not a machinist who can fabricate parts without having to contract someone else.
     
    Bigjake,

    I may be wrong, but I feel you are going to have a hard time getting someone to do what you want. Here is why. Most of the builders work extremely hard putting out a quality product that they know is going to perform well for the end user. Hypothetically speaking if X builder decided that he wanted to build your gun the way you wanted and the gun did not shoot then 1. You and the builder could get into a nasty fight over why the gun did not shoot. He could say that your ideas are not based on sound principals and did not recommend them. You would say that he did not build it to your exact specifications. 2. He may not want his name attached to a product that he has direct control over parts and quality control. It could lead to tarnishing his reputation. 3. Finally if a builder were to take this on it would seem to be a project that would be very time consuming. They simply may not want to devote the time necessary to finish the project.

    Caveat Emptor
     
    well it's not that in depth.. ill list my build tomorrow and you all will see what i'm trying to accomplish.
     
    Here is the the build I'm trying to get done....

    (ALSO.. PLEASE DON'T CRITIZISE ME FOR THE PARTS I WISH TO USE, IM SURE THERE ARE COMPANYS JUST AS GOOD AS THE ONE'S IVE LISTED, BUT AGAIN IT'S MY PREFERENCE.. BUT IF I AM WRONG ABOUT SOME OF THE DETAILS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHIME IN...THANKS)

    I'll start with the barrel, The barrel must be made by krieger or Bartlein these are the two companys i've had the best results so far with. Barrel length needs to be 24"-26" to maximize the full potential of the cartridge i'm going to use which is the .260 REM with a diameter of .936 - 1/8.5 twist. The gas system is going to be JP's low profile adjustable gas block.

    Now here is where i'm running into trouble. The upper receiver and handguard MUST be Monolithic, as I'm sure you all have noticed most of the best AR's out there are monolithic-- (GAP 10, LES BAER, LaRUE OBR, ) this is where the harmonics start to improve. now comes the fun part.. JP Enterprises uses a special technique to mate the barrel to the upper receiver they call it thermo fitting. Thermo fitting is where they heat the barrel nut threads of the receiver to a specific temperature and then insert the barrel. After the barrel is inserted they allow it to cool thus making the upper receiver shrink around the barrel extenion creating an ultra tight fit between the two, (a lot better than the old lock tight trick) So in short the complete upper will have the harmonics closer to a bolt gun. (one solid unit)

    and this is the rest.....

    After the upper is built it will operate with the JP.308 Low Mass Carrier. Moving down to the lower it's pretty straight forward, The lower will either be the matching lower from the monolithic upper or one that matches as well with tight tolerances..Trigger group-Geissele Hi-Speed National Match - Match Rifle Trigger , Buffer system- JP Silent Captured Spring, STOCK- MagPul PRS.

    So in short, an extremely rigid built upper with a single point cut match grade barrel, a fine tuned buffer/gas system that helps with the funky recoil impulse and a crisp trigger along with hand loads. I think that using the above build techniques along with the best parts on the market that are capable of being fine tuned..With this we would see "consistent" Bolt Rifle type accuracy.

    And yes..I know there are AR Rifles that "CAN" shoot 1/4-1/2 MOA..BUT! I have never seen one consistently shoot 1/2" MOA with every group it shoots.
     
    It sounds like you really like JP, which is not a bad place to be in. Why not BUY a JP rifle?
     
    I don't think most guys can shoot that well consistently with their bolt guns if we are being 'honest'...

    Every group I shoot from my R&D Precision .260 rifle is 1/2 MOA or better, unless im just fooling around with new loads.. if you like i'll post a pic of a business card that i can put six 5rd groups on.
     
    Every group I shoot from my R&D Precision .260 rifle is 1/2 MOA or better, unless im just fooling around with new loads.. if you like i'll post a pic of a business card that i can put six 5rd groups on.

    That's why I said most guys... A picture wouldn't help me believe you any more then just your word alone since it is very easy to fake a target. May surprise you but many companies that include test targets that you would think were shot at 100 yards are not shot at 100yrds, more like 25...
     
    The upper receiver and handguard MUST be Monolithic, as I'm sure you all have noticed most of the best AR's out there are monolithic-- (GAP 10, LES BAER, LaRUE OBR, ) this is where the harmonics start to improve.

    If the handguard is freefloated, and not touching the barrel, how does it affect the harmonics in a non-neglible way? I.E. The Mega MKM design, or the Seekins receivers where the handguard is attached to an extrusion on the receiver, and doesn't come into direct contact with the barrel or nut.

    Now, mind you, this next bit is not an attempt to trample on your hopes and dreams, I'm just trying to have a discussion.

    Analytically, I don't see why this type of accuracy wouldn't be possible from an AR, in slow fire anyway. I've seen AR receivers purpose built for accuracy, extra thick walls to increase stiffness, tolerances held to exacting standards, etc... Though I suppose an AR chamber has to be somewhat looser than a bolt gun chamber, to allow for the increased velocity and force that the round is chambered with.

    I've never compared chamber dimensions on match grade barrels for either purpose, so if anyone has FIRST HAND knowledge, please weigh in.

    But, and this is just curiousity, why the drive to do this in a gas gun? If you're going for high accuracy in a slow-fire situation, aren't you losing the main benefit of the AR platform, i.e. rapid fire and magazine capacity?

    At that point, wouldn't it be easier to cut bottom metal so it could feed a bolt gun from a high cap AR mag instead?

    Either way, it seems like an interest proposition you've got there, I'd like to hear back on the results.
     
    If the handguard is freefloated, and not touching the barrel, how does it affect the harmonics in a non-neglible way? I.E. The Mega MKM design, or the Seekins receivers where the handguard is attached to an extrusion on the receiver, and doesn't come into direct contact with the barrel or nut.

    Now, mind you, this next bit is not an attempt to trample on your hopes and dreams, I'm just trying to have a discussion.

    Analytically, I don't see why this type of accuracy wouldn't be possible from an AR, in slow fire anyway. I've seen AR receivers purpose built for accuracy, extra thick walls to increase stiffness, tolerances held to exacting standards, etc... Though I suppose an AR chamber has to be somewhat looser than a bolt gun chamber, to allow for the increased velocity and force that the round is chambered with.

    I've never compared chamber dimensions on match grade barrels for either purpose, so if anyone has FIRST HAND knowledge, please weigh in.

    But, and this is just curiousity, why the drive to do this in a gas gun? If you're going for high accuracy in a slow-fire situation, aren't you losing the main benefit of the AR platform, i.e. rapid fire and magazine capacity?

    At that point, wouldn't it be easier to cut bottom metal so it could feed a bolt gun from a high cap AR mag instead?

    Either way, it seems like an interest proposition you've got there, I'd like to hear back on the results.

    bottom line is that Im trying to get a AR that can shoot as accurate as my bolt rifle...I really love the IDEA of AR's the FUN FACTOR is what drives me to build this..


    SOOO PLEASE to get make to the root of this tread whitch was not my build, can y'all give me some names of some custom gun builders who can build this rifle for me...Thanks
     
    I think you are going to be hosed with the monolithic upper + thermo fitted barrel... If JP is thermo fitting their barrels as you say, there may be a reason why they do not offer a monolithic upper...
     
    Precision lr-308/ar10 help

    Get a BAT Machine receiver extension and have it turned down to fit your upper. I saw a post where Longrifles Inc. did some SR25s for an "agency" that performed well.
    BTW, "Thermomolding" may be as simple as heating the upper slightly so it expands to fit in a press fit clearance situation. You could do it with a pot of boiling water.
     
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    Sorry for the late reply, but I just saw this. I have been considering something simiiar, but much easier for some time. Instead of "thermo" fitting your barrel into your upper, consider using a light skim of an epoxy bedding compound around the barrel extension before final assembly. This could give you the monolithic effect you are looking for. Use one of the epoxies designed for bedding metal to metal, so that the expansion rates are as similar as possible. Epoxies are far superior to Loctite in this sort of application. Don't expect to disassemble them without some destruction.

    The "thermo" fitting idea has some merit, but the potential down side is that as the rifle heats and cools, the steel barrel extension and the aluminum upper receiver expand and contract at different rates, potentially changing the pressure the upper exerts on the barrel extension with unknown consequences. I would expect the effect is small otherwise we would see it more with conventionally assembled ARs.

    If harmonics are the area you are most concerned with then you should look into a more heavily constructed upper receiver. Potentially one of the machine shops that builds billet uppers could work with you to experiment with a custom extra heavy upper to compensate for the relatively weak material (aluminum) and the vast open areas in the design. The best bolt guns have only a single opening for loading.

    Have you considered a tube gun? That could give you what your looking for.
     
    Plenty of gouge out there that says shorter and stiffer are better than long and limber. 18-20" fluted heavy barrel with a rifle length gas port.
     
    I think you are going to be hosed with the monolithic upper + thermo fitted barrel... If JP is thermo fitting their barrels as you say, there may be a reason why they do not offer a monolithic upper...

    When thermofitting, wouldn't the handguards on a monolithic upper act as a huge heat sink, causing the system to require a lot more heat? Especially since aluminum is an excellent conductor.
     
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    The monolithic platforms do not need to be thermofit as they are split to accept the barrel extension and in the case of the LMT use a longer extension to increase rigidity even further. I built a .260 of my own fully custom that consitently shoots 10 round groups at 300 yards at 2" or under. it consists of a steel upper and a propietary barrel nut of my own design that properly torques up at around 50 ft/lbs and also clamps around the barrel (think skeleton type bedding of a bolt gun). The extension was blueprinted and then shimmed and glued into the upper with green loctite giving the upper a one piece feel. The barrel is a 27" Krieger 18LV with the port moved forward 3" with a self made gas tube (thicker and more rigid for better harmonics) and a self made gas block. In fact, I did so much machine work done that it is even worth going through. in short, the gun is bolt gun accurate but weighs around 20 lbs fully tricked out. If I did it all over again I would start with an LMT and just custom make the barrel to what I wanted an add on whatever furniture you prefer.
     
    If you can't find someone who will take your money, why not build it yourself? At least the assembly bit of it.
     
    I just built a semi .308 with the same parts list. I used the new Mega MKM Maten kit for the entire "outer" monolithic system and used all JP for the "inner". The only non-Mega on the "outer" is the Magpul PRS stock, Hogue rubber grip, Atlas bipod, AADmount AR mount, SWFA 3-15 scope, and spray paint :)
     
    Thermo fitting will require a lot of machine work and I can't think it adds that much accuracy. There are a lot of ar10s that will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA. Not trying to crap on your idea, but any time I build a rifle for me or someone elss, I focus on the goal rather than the individual components.

    David at Shark built a 260 upper that I have seen shoot back to back 1.5" groups at 400 yards.