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Long Range Rifle Options

B

bbowles

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 13, 2013
316
5
Missouri
New to the long range game. Had Rem 700's in past and now getting back into rifles. Bought good quality reloading equip recently (reloaded for bolt guns in the past). Playing with a DD ar15 now. Thinking of buying a true long range bolt gun.

Wondering what the differences in quality between top tier rifles and Rem 700 type and in between. Group size, cost,etc.

Is it worth going top tier for long range target and hunting? Prob won't want to compete in future but would love to have a long range hunting rig capable of 1/4 moa or better (even though I am not yet capable).

I am committed to being competent. Enrolling in long range classes starting this spring. Want to start with high quality knowing I will shoot out some barrels before I become proficient. Thanks.
 
As you know all guns are different. Some Remingtons will shoot .25 while others may do 2 inches. Id say if you averaged every plain remington 700 they would equal 3/4 moa with good ammo. That being said...customs cost about 4kish? But they come with a garentee. My surgeons both cost 5400. And I couldn't be happier and I knew when I got them that they would shoot. They will both shoot hole in hole when I can. I now have no need for other bolt guns in my opinion nor could I ask for more. I have the best I can get and put my money into collecting black guns. Just my opinion.
 
Long Range Rifle Options

TexasMade said:
Some Remingtons will shoot .25 while others may do 2 inches. Id say if you averaged every plain remington 700 they would equal 3/4 moa with good ammo.
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I'd say that's three wild guesses.
 
This is going to open up a can of worms about who's "top tier" rifle is better than another's. To the OP, top tier may cost 2k, 5k, or even 10k depending on who you ask. All depends on the style and features you are looking for. You really can't compare low end against high end when trying to figure out what is better or if they are worth it, that argument should always fall to the high end rifle in general. The question is, at what point do you begin to gain very little for excessive cost. Take a surgeon compared to an AX. They are both great rifles, both shoot well but one costs considerably more than the other. Is it worth it, again it all depends on who you ask and what style you require.
 
I would ask your self how serious you want will be with it. IF you are going to be serious and shoot a lot go custom. Go with GAP Surgeon or a few other great guys here. EX: SAC,APA,KMW,Gradous etc.... If you go that route you will have a great gun that you will not question. If you have great optic,mount, and ammo the misses are all on you. THat way you are only trying to correct you. Not the system. I see a lot of guys at our range with problems and a WHOLE lot lately with even Senderos and 5R with problems. All these guys keep saying, "I don't know what the problem is" It might be them or the gear. With a good custom 99.999999% of the time its on you.

I say custom.

But if your only gonna shoot here and there long range then go factory. I have seen several SPS in houge stocks shoot good enough for a lot of people.

And custom rifles from name brand builders have great value retention.

Good luck. Surgeon and GA seems to be pretty quick with a lot of rifles right now
 
TexasMade,
I think like you do. Bought several things over the years trying to be cost conscience and get a "good value" only to be disappointed. I am a guy who already tries to save few dollars and wish I had done different.

For example, recently bought a vortex PST viper SFP. It is a very nice scope but already wish I would have got Razor or even a NF or S&B. Not quite as clear or as good of eye relief as would like. So what would you suggest I do to get sub 1/4 moa? Thanks again for your honesty.
 
I am definitely thinking custom. I am not good enough shot yet but good equipment to get better with. So my next question is where to start in this journey? I am a researcher but not sure if need to just call some companies or what? I definitely want to make sure to look at all options to know what I like and what fits me and my preferences. Thanks.
 
If your searching for 1/4moa accuracy and when I call for something like that I mean consistent accuracy you need to go custom. Even used custom. Then you know you got something. If not you will get ggod results here and there and you might need to go through a few guns before you find it. Buy once cry once. You can spend your money on ammo and training instead of shipping it or smith fees.

I have about 20 rifles right now bout 50/50 custom factory and that's my opinion. And if I was to only have 1 precision rifle. No doubt it would be custom.

That's just me. Good luck with your endeavors sir
 
So a surgeon and a gap are in 5k neighborhood. How about an ax? Can't find info for it. What others should I consider?
 
You are just starting out and you are looking for sub .25 MOA. Even with a custom rifle, you need some serious skill to pull off .1 - .2 groups at distance. Honestly, purchase a solid factory rifle and then move into custom/mil later when you are ready. jMHO
 
I purchased an AX in .338, SPUHR mount, atlas bipod, and S&B optic. Came in at around 14k when it was all said and done.....
 
Hairball,
I really appreciate your guidance. Guess my question is why not buy once cry once method? I hate buying and then wishing I had gotten better quality. Why not start with great quality and work hard on my skills? You are prob right but hate to wish done different.

Apparently an AX Is a lot higher than GA and Surgeon. What about these 2 compared to AX?
 
All three are great rifles and shoot very well, all comes down to the smaller details and features. The down side with buying a custom/mil rifle and not having any experience is that you may become quickly frustrated when the rifle is capable of one thing while the shooter is capable of another. In other words, it is going to take considerable time and effort to get to the point where you are equally matched. Some of these rifles are so good, they actually cover up minor mistakes in technique that would be more apparent in a lesser rifle so if you develop bad habits, they may not be as apparent if you are using say a 700. Sure you can buy once and cry once and if you have the budget, most people would say go for it. On the flip side, you may not perform as well as you expect, become frustrated, and reduce your range time or stop all together. Ask 100 people, get 100 different answers. I started shooting rifles when I was 5 with a Remington field master pump .22 and progressed over time. Over 40 years later and there are still things to learn. By all means, get what you want, just remember you are beginning a process that will not be mastered in a few short months or even years. Set realistic goals and expectations and you should be fine. If after the first month you're pissed because you are not shooting sub .25 MOA, this might not be the right hobby for you.
 
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what cal. are you thinking? there are some exellent customs in the for sale section on here. you could also get in on the group
buy and build exacly what YOU want.you know what will fit your needs or wants best. I shoot factory 700 rem. I am happy
with them for now. do I want a custom? hell yes. when I shoot out my first barrel then it will happen. It's all about what you
want. surf the hide and learn. LOTS of QUALLITY INFO HERE. welcome have fun getting back into the game.
 
How is the best way to KNOW what I want? I can't just go to the mall and try them out (nor would I want to, hate malls). A person can't go down to local gun shop either for high end stuff. I will not make a hasty decision and will only buy after lots of research.

So how to I know what options I want and what feels good in MY hands?
 
I am not even sure about caliber. I have started researching some. I want caliber capable of long range when my skills get a lot better.

I have shot guns off and on for years just not serious. Want to change that. I bought a DD V5 16" ar15 few months ago and love it. Had 700's in past (still shoot my dads 700 in 270). Love my ar auto loader so much that I thought about trying long range with it but after reading and my past reloading experiences I think I will leave too much on the table in regards to accuracy. However, this DD shoots an honest 1-1.2 moa. Am now shooting coyotes with it and shooting targets at 400 yds into 1.2-1.5 moa.

I really wanted to buy high end ar but afraid in future will want more accuracy.

Guess I have considered in the .260 rem class to use for coyotes, deer and antelope and even prairie dogs. Got the .223 ar for closer range and if ever elk hunted again (always used bow in past) or dangerous game will want .338 or so.

Any input on caliber also appreciated. Again I will hand load for ar, dads 700 and this new purchase. I want to say I am not above buying another 700 or something in between 700 and custom. Thanks again for helping a reborn and excited shooter.
 
GAP seems to make a nice rifle. 6.5 SAUM is turning out to be a heck of a caliber. Lots of case prep, tho.

Or Tikka T3 Varmint in .308...
 
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I recently purchased a GA Precision Hospitaller. I absolutely love it. I used to have a Remington 700P and was impressed but it was difficult to get it to fit me right with a lack of cheek rest and such. So I, like you, was in the same boat. I wanted quality in anticipation for upcoming competitions. My thought also was to get the rifle perfect, then work on my skills, knowing that it would be me holding the rifle back, not the other way around. I would me more frustrated with being a good shot with a crappy rifle.

The folks at GA Precision were very easy to deal with. They actually delivered prior to the 6 month estimated completion time. I opted for the Jewell trigger and was way the heck impressed compared to the Rifle Basix trigger I used to use on my 700P. I went with .308 for practice reasons and once I wear that barrel out (in maybe a few years really), then I will rebarrel the action with a different caliber, either a .243, .260, 7mm 08, 6.5x47 Lapua or 6xc.

Another thing to think about is resale, if ever that should happen. If you get a basic Remington and upgrade it all, you will only have an upgraded Remington 700 and the resale would be no where near the money you invested. However, when you sell a GA Precision on here and other sites, you get almost all of your money back.

I would recommend the GA Precision rifles based on my very recent experience. I have no regrets one bit, not even the price. Meanwhile, here is the results of a 5 shot group at 100 meters:

<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg"/></a>
 
Seeing as you are rather close to GA Precision (3 hour drive) I would post up on here and see if there are some people in your area who would let you shoot there guns! I am willing to bet there are some GAPS, and AI's around you!

I love it when another hide member gives me a reason for a range day. :)
 
Bbowels, You may want to take a look in the for sale threads. Lots of good custom built rifles, at a good price.
Just an idea. Good luck!
 
NevadaZielmeister,
Thanks very much for the info! I am not good enough shooter to shoot that group but working toward that. How practical is it to use a GA-like rifle for hunting?

Spartan67,
Where are the for sale ads? (Stupid question I know but never did forums much). My only fear to buying a used rifle is again afraid of not getting as good as new accuracy and having to spend kind of money for this quality of rifle.
 
A GAP would be a great hunting rifle. There Thunder Ranch has a good all around stock. I also like the gladius.

I just bought a AIAE and absolutely love it. I wasnt sure about a thumb hole stock but I actually like it once I got to hold it. The AE is a lot cheaper then the AX. The only thing I dont like about it is the barrel. I dont like the 1-12 twist bc I like to shoot the 175gr class bullets (which I use a 1-10") for 1000yd shooting. I really like the AI actions, they are very smooth and like the 60 degree bolt lift.

If you are not sure what caliber you are wanting look at the .308 or 6.5 CM

The Thunder Ranch Rifle

for sale ads
Firearms For Sale
 
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i started with a remington 700 sps varmint ..... in the end.. i shot the barrel out... and sent the barreled action to accurate ordnance, with a bartlein.... hands down i will do nothing but custom builds from now on.... with factory ammo the rifle is .5 MOA all day long..... when im using my reloads and i do my part, its all day long .25 MOA.... worth every penny... im getting ready to send out my model 70 to them to get done..

spend once cry once....... or if your stubborn like me..... spend years and countless $$$ finding out the hard way
 
I think I need to go visit both GA and Surgeon since both only 3 hours from me. Would be great to actually get to handle all the options and even shoot some if found someone who has one.

What is the main differences between GA and Surgeon and AI?

I am thinking a .260 would be perfect size. I have an ar .223 that I plan to convert to more plinking and home defense with an aimpoint. I would use it also some for varmints. But I would also use this new precision for targets, varmints and deer size game.
 
SuburbanHick said:
i started with a remington 700 sps varmint ..... in the end.. i shot the barrel out... and sent the barreled action to accurate ordnance, with a bartlein.... hands down i will do nothing but custom builds from now on.... with factory ammo the rifle is .5 MOA all day long..... when im using my reloads and i do my part, its all day long .25 MOA.... worth every penny... im getting ready to send out my model 70 to them to get done..

spend once cry once....... or if your stubborn like me..... spend years and countless $$$ finding out the hard way
Click to expand...

I started the same way but with a rem then went to a savage and then pieced it together the way I wanted it. It took a lot more money doing it that way then it is to get a custom built one.
 
What about the extra weight of these precision rifles? 13 or so lbs compared to typical 7-8 lbs hunting rifle. Wouldn't that get awful heavy out western hunting?
 
With GA and Surgeon you can order a rifle and have different options added or swapped out where AI you buy it the way it is. Personally I would go with GAP over Surgeon (although I like there actions). Gap is a sponsor here on the Hide, I like support the sponsors. Someone please correct me if Surgeon is a sponsor. Let it be known I like the surgeon rifles too, but favor the GAPS.
 
There is a lot of great builders here on the Hide. Look at them all. Jered at APA does excellent work. I had him put the barrel on my savage and he did a outstanding job. I highly recommend him. Mark at SAC does great work too. He put a barrel on my Sako TRG. I have not been able to shoot it yet but have no doubt its a shooter. I highly recommend him also. There are a lot of threads here that show off there work. Take your time and get what you want.
 
Crosshair said:
Customs are great, but you sure get a lot of value in a Sako TRG or AE MkIII. No 8 month wait times too : )

Accuracy International AE MK III .308 Win Rifles Dark Earth - EuroOptic.com
Sako TRG-22 Rifle - Sako TRG-22 308 Rifle Green 20" Barrel Phosphate Metal Finish - are on sale and free shipping. - EuroOptic.com

Slam on the $2500 optic of your choice and stock up on match ammo. If you have any cash left over; professional instruction and range time.
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This is pretty solid advise. I have found that you will spend just as much, if not more when all is said and done getting a top of the line rifle. That said, I own a TRG (22), and would not hesitate for a second to buy another for my next customized build. The stock is very good, the mags are spendy, but, I have yet to have any feed issues over 1800 rounds through 3 of them. The accessories can run you a bit too, but they are high quality. I recommend you buy a model without a scope mount though.
 
i run a 1-11.25 twist bartlein rem heavy varmint contour....24 inches+ 2inches for the lil jimmy.... sitting in a xlr.. nightforce on top....14+ lbs.... im 6 foot 2 240+ lbs..... and i carry twice that at work....i like my rifles alittle heavy...maybe becuase im young and dumb.... but for right now it works wellll
 
I own both the Sako and AIAE MK III and prefer the MK III more. I actually feels more comfortable to me. I would advise getting behind both and see which you prefer. They both have a lot to offer.
 
Bang for the buck its hard to beat a 5R in my opinion. I just couldn't justify 4K+ for a custom when some of the upper end factory guns shoot pretty well. Sure the custom guns can shoot a tenth or two better but Im fine with that for what Ive got into my setup.
 
So...assuming I put a really good shooter behind one of these customs and same shooter behind a rem or sako what is the accuracy difference? (.1, .2,.5 moa?). Also is there some middle of road rifles that are close to same accuracy? Is the rem 700 considered low end? I only know about the rem 700's and getting to know about these customs but not sure about other options.
 
bbowles said:
So...assuming I put a really good shooter behind one of these customs and same shooter behind a rem or sako what is the accuracy difference? (.1, .2,.5 moa?).
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Twice the square root of the number of Angels that can dance on the head of a pin.... But in Mils.
 
You might want to consider an RWS Gunsmithing base custom rifle, it's a cheaper alternative to going completely custom but still gives you plenty of options and you will have a great shooter.
 
Don't listen to the people suggesting you buy a basic rifle just because you're a new shooter, if you have the means to buy a top tier rifle, DO IT. You will never wonder "is it me or the rifle", you'll know it's you.

I'd forgo the whole custom deal and buy an AI. They're solid rifles that have features you won't find on any others, including customs. They're also purpose built from the ground up for this, not a glorified hunting rifle, or an action based off one. Best of all you order one and have it in a week. If you want to change calibers you order the barrel and swap it at home with a $100 action wrench and $75 barrel vise.

That's my .02
 
Redneckbmxer24,
Does AI build .260 rem caliber or special order? How do you know which options to go with or which model of AI?
 
YOu can get an AI in a .260 through Mile High Shooting Supply or Euro Optic. Both are Hide vendors and are excellent to deal with!
 
bbowles said:
NevadaZielmeister,
Thanks very much for the info! I am not good enough shooter to shoot that group but working toward that. How practical is it to use a GA-like rifle for hunting?
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Good question. Not super practical.

If I were hunting, I would not bring my GA Precision. I would bring my Ruger Mk77, which I shoot in .270 Winchester. You have to realize that you would never shoot super long range at an animal. It is inhumane because you might only wound the animal and possibly never find it after it gets done running, plus the distance of the shot. You have to think a lot about what you are hunting and how far out you want to shoot. I would never shoot a deer more than 300 yards away. It is unfair to the animal.

However, that being said, you will see a bunch of photos under the GA Precision Gallery showing some amazing shots. Maybe I just never took a chance at those ranges.

Meanwhile, lugging around an 12+ pound rifle after a few miles gets tough. If you must bring a heavy rifle, then I would recommend an Eberlestock pack. I own the Phantom and it carries my rifles very comfortably.

I second the notion to go and visit the GA Precision shop. I wish I could have done so myself, but I live much further away.

We cannot wait to hear what you finally decided on.
 
I am probably getting ahead of myself. I will take my time on this. I think my next step is to call both GA and Surgeon and talk with them and then go visit one or both depending on how accommodating they seem to be. I doubt I will go with an AI as I won't sink this kind of money into something I can't see for myself before purchasing.

I AGREE 100% with not shooting too long at animals that are risky. I also can't see myself shooting a fabulous rifle like GA or Surgeon and then leaving it home for my hunt and use a rem 700 instead. I doubt I will compete with this rifle but would enjoy shooting long range and testing handloads AND hunting with same rifle. Maybe I am getting too much rifle for my needs. I just enjoy precision things.

I will call both companies in next few weeks and see where that takes me. I appreciate very much all your help and keep them coming with things I should consider.
 
I went with a FN SPR, here's why:

1. .308, old standby, capable of great accuracy, lots of good components available for reloading, extremely high quality factory ammo is easier to find than other calibers. I thought about going with a 6.5 caliber but that is basically committing to loading your own ammo - can't always find 6.5 creed or 260 rem match ammo lying around. For a novice precision shooter trigger time is far more important than caliber and .308 allows me to shoot more often.

2. Mcmillan stock, comes from the factory with a great stock - no need to upgrade. If you buy an rem or savage, you will most likely want to change the stock anyway (part of why the SPR is a great value)

3. Guaranteed sub MOA from the factory, and most come with test targets in the .5 - .75 moa range. You're new to long range shooting, you aren't going to be shooting .25 moa anytime soon. That being said an accurate rifle is still important, with the SPR I know when I shoot those 1.25 moa groups that it was me, not the rifle.

4. Overall great value - sub moa (and they will replace the chrome lined barrel under warranty once you shoot it out, which they claim will take ~10k rnds), mcmillan stock, badger base for < $1400.

5. I have a hard on for model 70 crf actions

Short version - I went with the SPR because I knew I could get a rifle guaranteed to shoot better than me and that didn't need any changes out of the box for 1/3 the price of a good custom rifle.

My next rifle will probably be a custom, but that is years down the line when I have a better idea of exactly what I want in a rifle. For now, the SPR is doing a fantastic job helping me learn the long range game.
 
bbowles,
I posted a link for you on post #30 for a AI at Mile High.
 
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