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Savage now and then AKA why people hate Savage

MoBoost

MoBoost

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 4, 2012
724
4
44
Midwest City, OK
www.okshooters.com
In my search for a good deal on a Remington 700 donor rifle - I have managed to purchase two Savages on gunbroker; too good of deal honestly.

Both are in 270 Win, one is from 1980s another is the latest the 20-teens. Both are the basic "budget" rifles. I thought that would be a good opportunity to compare the two.


First side by side view.
2kjztw.jpg

Not much has changed over the years from the looks of it. The new reciever is all round VS flat in the back on older model. I don't know what was the thinking behind "flat back" - but I really like all round looks and function.

Now lets look at the inner workings. Here are the stocks.
o5ud75.jpg

The old stock has no pillars. As a matter of fact you can't even properly torque down the front screw - it runs into the bolt head, and since rear screw is unsupported tightening it bows/stresses the receiver. New stock both issues are addressed with steel pillars. Both have plastic trigger guard.

The action itself.
oa1a44.jpg

The barrel nut is now square tooth instead of rounded (I honestly prefer rounded look, but looks like new nuts are smooth all around). The safety is three position vs two on older model. The older rifle has a Basix trigger - fantastic benchrest trigger, but for field use I prefer Accutrigger reliability and safety. The magazine is no longer attached to the action (thanks God - what a PITA to remove). The new sear/spring is simplified.

And here is big difference - the recoil lug.
fy0mqq.jpg

The old lug is only .150" and is rounded and uneven. The new lug is .190" and very flat.

With all this said - now it makes a lot more sense why respectable gunsmiths/shooters that should know better talk bad about Savages: old models had issues. The good news, the issues have been addressed; the value and the quality of the rifles has been improving over the years (the opposite of some other manufacturers out there).
 
I think Savage's quality has really improved while Remington has dropped to hit & miss. I bought a heavy barrel tactical model of each both in 308, both short heavy threaded barrels. So when I get them scoped & the weather's better we'll see which one performs best. I actually paid less for the Remmy, $499.99/shipped with the houge green stock. So we shall see the quality, accuracy & build of both.
 
Having a both Remington 700 (several) as well as a Savage 12 LRP I think I'd take a Savage over a stock Remington these days. I had an uncle work at Remington in the barrel chambering dept, and he told me that after 2007 takeover the barrel junk rate (rate at which barrel are discarded due to rifling/chambering/ bore, ext) went from 7% to 2%, and this was done without any new machinery. Makes you want to ask how they improved 5% without any changes - simple they used the barrel that had flaws.

I have not bought a Rem 700 since, and will shift my consumerism to better companies like Savage Arms, Tikka, and FN.
 
My son just bought a 12 LPR in .260. Looks pretty nice. Comes with a HS Precision stock with a high target comb. Has a 26" fluted barrel and a tactical bolt knob. Hope it shoots as nice as it looks.
 
Boltfluter said:
Sorry, but I just can't bring myself to own an ugly rifle to save a few bucks.

Paul
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Man, I feel you on that one. I think Savage makes a pretty good rifle, and out of the box I'd bet the avergae savage would outshoot a comparable Remy. But they are ugly! Plus the Remy has way better aftermarket support ( that is changing though), and I really think the Remy action has a better feel when cycling the bolt. I'm not a hater though. I just don't like ugly rifles... (Even if they do shoot well)
 
The last 2 new savages I bought were pretty crappy. The 111 LRH in 300 Wm wasn't horrible, if you could get over the accutrigger and stock it was a decent hunting rifle. The savage 111 LRH in 338 lapua was a piece of crap. Barrel copper fouled quick, accuracy was poor, stock was flimsy and the accutrigger was really bad and would trip itself. You would think with all the DBM's out there they could copy one that works, well they couldn't. I polished that turd like crazy until I got sick of having to tap cases out of the sticky chamber and sold it. I will admit Remington isn't perfect. their sps line has its share of flaws. I have several of the Remington higher end rifles, a police 338 and a couple of the Xcr long range models and they are great rifles.
 
Boltfluter said:
Sorry, but I just can't bring myself to own an ugly rifle to save a few bucks.

Paul
Click to expand...

this is one that always makes me wonder. Savages are really ugly and Remingtons are really pretty?

And not only that but that is the BOTTOM LINE for basing a preference? I find that kind of incredible.

Some would say form follows function and others might say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Can someone explain which part of the Remington is so beautiful and why? I haven't been able to see much of a difference so far. At least not one that would trouble me.

I guess I'm a little different in that I see rifles as tools. I guess there are pretty hammers and ugly hammers?

If I were to walk into a Wallmart with one of the guys that see Savages as ugly we would probably end up in different departments.
Me in the DVD section or automotive or sporting goods. The other guy in the jewelry section?

Another thing I notice is that there are so many jewelry ads in the NRA magazines. Freaking tons of em! Maybe they are on to something?

It amazes me when a rifle goes bang and puts a hole where you want it just how cool it looks.

Hey, to each his own I guess right?
 
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I'm not as deep into absolute perfection like some in here, but I do expect that whatever I purchase to provide performance equal or greater than the price paid. I bought a Remy 700 SPS Tactical a few months ago. Turned out to be one of the worst firearms purchases I've made since buying a Raven .25 semi auto pistol back in the '80's. Shot about as well, or perhaps worse than the Raven. I actually felt bad about selling it to someone else but there's a sucker born every minute they say.

So I picked up a new Savage Model 10 Predator Hunter, 24" fluted varmint barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor, accu-stock and accu-trigger a month after dumping the Remy. That Savage is tied with the best rifle I own for out of the box accuracy and dependability. I'd buy another, or two or three, in a heat beat. Someone would have to put a gun to my head before I'd even consider buying another Remington POS.
 
Sadly, Remington is not what it used to be. My pic today would be a Tikka T3. The best value for the money out there. IMHO.

Regards,
Paul
 
I think most <$1,000 rifles leave a lot to be desired (especially the stocks), but with a Remy you have a very good foundation to build on. I would only buy an SPS for the action. My main problem with Savage is the way they feel when you work the action, and Jewell does not make a trigger for them.
 
The whole "ugly gun" thing is garbage. People are always gonna find a reason to bash on Savages. I too would be somewhat offended to if an out of the box gun or a gun that was much cheaper to build up came close or even out shot my high end custom I had paid quite a bit of money for. I'd try and find something I didn't like about the "cheaper" gun as well. In the end every company has its lemons Remington, Savage, Tikka, etc. I am sure they all have. That being said I still love my Savage.

Ben
 
Hell I have shot some pretty accurate Savages, but to me it was like driving a car with a cheap interior. I also felt dirty after. Is that weird?
 
AEROMechanic said:
I've got no dog in this fight but, what is your picture supposed to prove or disprove?
Click to expand...

I believe he was going for the "A lot of people talk the talk, but dont walk the walk" angle. A whole crap load of guys showing off their pretty rigs, and very few actually showing they can put them to use.

I understand the point of it, but obviously when one thread has 3,6xx,xxx views compared to 2,xxx there are going to be less posts.
 
One thread is 4 months old, the other 8 YEARS old.

I own two Savages, one M700. Briefly has another 700 this summer, one of the 16.5" 308 SPS Tacticals.

The Remington's bolt felt smoother, and it ejected a LOT better than my Savages. I was able to use the M40 Medalist stock, which I really like and isn't available for Savages, for <$250 new. The X Mark Pro blows ass compared to the Accutrigger, which itself falls somewhere between isn't great and alright.

But the Savage does have an "ugly" barrel nut, so there's that. I guess I can thank the "its ugly" crowd for convincing Savage to use smooth barrel nuts these days, letting form override function.

An $8 kit from SSS fixed my Savage ejection issue, and now it throws brass pretty darn well.

If Remington would make the AAC-SD in 1:8 260 Remington (or 6.5 Creedmoor!) I'd be throwing money at them. But they won't, so I won't. If I want a 260 or 6.5 Creedmoor on a Savage, I can buy either from the factory or spend $300 on a prefit barrel and take 15 minutes to swap barrels in my basement.

As mentioned upthread, the Tikka action is quite nice; I've been thinking very hard on finding a T3 Sporter in 260.
 
I think the savage hate is akin to the hate for regular R700s by the custom gun crowd. Id have to figure out a reason to bitch too if guns 1/3 the price were hanging with my super uber custom gun. I like the barrel nut personally but I'm weird. A 6.5cm lrp is on my buy list next year for sure.
 
Damn Pual, ur kinda hard on part of ur customer base. U do savage bolt work right? Yeah the barrel nut is ugly, no graceful lines or elegant looks...of course that could be said about big honkin tactical knobs, 6 screw bulky rings, alot of chassis. It has to be the barrel nut that makes savage ugly right? I mean both rifles have bolt handles, the same stocks are available for each, both have round receivers. Honestly a savage and rem in an aics, both with nf scopes and seekins ring and base, and the savage is uglier. I don't get it, must be some subconscious preference kicking in because at 25' u probably couldn't tell the difference between them. I have yet to have ejection problems, i have had 10 or more savages over the years going back to when they only had the 110 la for any caliber. Yeah the bolts aren't as smooth as a rem, neither are even close to tikka. All my bolts have smoothed out over the thousands of rds the actions have saw. The cheap, black bolt bodies seem the worst feeling in the gunshop, but the jeweled bodies seem to glide just as good as my remmys.
 
I've used and have been issued allot of different rifles (brands) over the years, for me it all comes down to how it shoots and does it get the job done. A few years back, I think early 2010, I was presented a Savage 10 FLCP-K from Savage. I get to use it 4-6 times a year when I'm home...like now. Anyway this stick for it's caliber (.308) out shoots most every rifle I've been behind including a few custom rigs.

I have no brand loyalty but I'd certainly get another Savage if needed.
 
jimbowe said:
Anybody here ever get a shit deal on a transaction because they trusted someone like this?
Sucker!
Click to expand...

You have to figure Remington knows what they are putting on the market, and took me for the sucker I was. I didn't do any worse than Remington in putting the rifle in a gun shop for some other fool that believed the Remington hype.

Sorry bud, but if a manufacturer makes it for sale and that manufacturer had (operative word; had) that high product reputation, it's supposed to work as advertised. It didn't and certainly wasn't going to spend a month or more waiting for the company to decide what it was going to do about it. I would have done the same with a Savage, Tikka, or any other product. FYI, I have an "off the shelf" Howa 1500 that shoots 5 times tighter groups than the Remington. I found a long time ago that being a product zealot can have a tendency to take you down with the ship a declining manufacturer is sinking on. It's my opinion that Remington is now living on a reputation that was developed a long time ago and using that reputation to continue capturing market share they no longer deserve due to cut backs in their quality to increase profitability. Something many companies are doing in today's race to generate the maximum profitability from minimum investment. My research and experience has indicated that Savage is doing all it can to build a superior consumer product, and my experience to date with Savage has been a pleasing one. OTH, website hype is what prompted me to by the Remington, and my experience there to date was quite disappointing.

Yep, I was a sucker once, but never again. I've learned that any product can be good if you throw enough money at it, but the great products work as advertised immediately upon purchase. If one desires to go to the custom rifle level it's their option and they can start their modifications from there. IMO Remington is living off a reputation earned from weapons tricked out for the military, developed at considerable expense above their "production" weapons. Unfortunately their production consumer products are being touted by many as a high quality product when they probably are not. FYI, the Savage 10 was at a similar price point but far superior to the Remy 700 in form, fit, and function.
 
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Wait the vuanted 700 5r isn't a quarter moa gun....but i read on the interweb,lol. My last good rem was circa 2004, it was a 700vsf. That rifle shot damn good for a factory gun and fit and finish was superior to savage then. I bought a 5r, an aac-sd, and a couple tacticals in the last 5 yrs. One was sold, and the 5r and tac was rebarreled after i tried everything under the sun to make them shoot. The aac-sd is now set up as a remage, after a bunch of load work ups and wearing an aics i decided the factory barrel was best suited for a tent stake(1.5 moa). My savages have been 3/4 moa or better, the only reason they wear different barrels now are because they shot out or because savage doesn't make a 1-8 243,lol. The one nice thing about the barrel nut is that i don't lose sleep over overbore cases like 243. Like boiler said, barrels take 15 minutes to change out not 6 mo plus 300 in smith fees.
 
this might cause me to lose whatever little credibility I ever had, however small, but ... I don't think savages are ugly.
 
DeepEastKilla said:
I believe he was going for the "A lot of people talk the talk, but dont walk the walk" angle. A whole crap load of guys showing off their pretty rigs, and very few actually showing they can put them to use.
Click to expand...

Because 100 yard group shooting is super hardcore...

There's a lot more to precision shooting than pulling a trigger.
 
AEROMechanic said:
I've got no dog in this fight but, what is your picture supposed to prove or disprove?
Click to expand...
I think it is supposed to show how many like to show off how their stuff looks in comparison to how fewer show off how it functions. Kind of a look how cool/pretty/neat my hammer looks vs look what my hammer does.
 
Heres my take, I own about 20 rifles. Half custom and and half factory. I own 1 savage and its crazy accurate. On par with several of my customs. But all of my factory remmys are pretty accurate too. OP I know you say you prefer an accutrigger for reliability. I have to disagree, I have seen a lot of accutriggers go down In hard use. I'm talking about 7 or so in the last few years from guys at the class or going out in the field. It really changed my thoughts of em. The rifle basix triggers I have dealt with seemed to be really tough. I no longer own one but I never had any trouble myself. But all that being said If I was getting abother factory rifle it would most likely be a remmy. I know its true about the hit or miss with em nowadays but that's the chance you take with a factory gun. I'm thinking bout getting the sps 16.5 If its not as good as I like I just got the roll of the dice. If I didn't have another gun to fall back on I would call GAP or someone and you can get a custom rifle for not too bad of a price. You don't have to have manners/mcmilian when you can get a used/new HS or B&C. you can get bottom metal for cheaper and you can look into other triggers. I don't trust a jewel anymore after I've had more than one crap out one me. If you go factory its a roll of the dice but you can end up with a shooter. Custom us more of a guarantee when coming from a good smith. THanks OP for the comparison.
 
I have owned a few Remingtons, and now own an AI and a Remington 5r trued up in an AICS with a custom barrel. I am not fortunate enough to own several high end rifles like some here but had the opportunity to be issued some very nice rifles. Back to Savage, I recently purchased a LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor due to the reports of Savage accuracy out of the box. I must have got one made on Monday or Friday because it shot like crap. Chambering a round the brass would get resistance about 1/2 way and had to be forced in. After the round was ejected there would be a large gouge in the brass right where the neck meets the shoulder. The average group size with Hornady 140 AMAX was averaging 2.5 to 3 " at 100 metres. The bolt face was also pitted and looked like it came off a used rifle which this was not. I called Savage and they said this was normal and I was told that they take rifles at random and do more than average test firing and this was what caused the bolt face to be like it was. I don't know if this is bs but thats what I was told. As for the difficult chambering, they said send it back. Well I don't know but if they did more test firing with this rifle they would have known the issue with the chambering and it should have never left the factory. Doing some research and it looks like several LRP's had the same issue. So much for quality control. I guess there is a reason Savages are cheap. If you are lucky to get a good one, good on you. I was pissed and got rid of it. I know this can happen with any rifle, especially a factory rifle but that was my experience with a Savage rifle and it will be my last. I won't waste my time or money with it. I will stick with my AI. I must have been lucky with Remingtons because the ones I did have or currently have had no issues, go figure.
 
FYI I paid $529 for BOTH rifles last week on gunbroker: brand new one with Bushnell and used one with Basix trigger and Redfield 3-9x40 vintage scope (not pictured). I was and am shopping for Remington 700 donor - prices just don't make sense right now.

Neither one will be shot in 270win - I hate HATE hate that caliber. Older one already got 30-06 barrel and 10FP recoil lug. I am waiting on aluminum stock to pillar bed it. The brand new one will get 6.5x55 barrel.

I have never had a problem with properly adjusted Accutrigger.
 
I've had plenty of Remingtons. Some were good some were not so good. What I don't like about them is you can't do anything to them unless you use a Gunsmith. I'm a tinkerer and like to experiment. That's the beauty of Savage. They are the AR's of the bolt guns. Mix and match. I routinely swap barreled actions in and out of chassis's and stocks depending on what floats my boat. Rebarrel no problem. I swap out barrels like underwear. I have never left anything stock in my life. Everything must be tweaked. So Savages are naturals for me. And once you get to working on them you can make most of them shoot well or usually exceptionally...whether 100 yard groups or 1000 yard matches...whatever floats your boat. I used to do more of the former now mostly the latter. My "home made" custom Savages do just fine at long range. I do belive Savage makes probably the best "factory" barrels. Rarely do you get a dog. Ugly? Agree with 6brshooter. In an after market stock ready to rock you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference except for the barrel nut which defines what a Savage is.
 
It seems like during my research, which I do a lot of, I find a product that seems to be of good value. I read tons of reviews, and seem to only find that the vast majority of reviews are that of a great product. So I purchased a PST. I wish I could afford a Nightforce at this time. After the purchase, nothing but shit on the PST. Fuck.

I had a Savage 10 FP LE. I never really liked the Savages, I think they are uglier than sin, and the bolt feels like shit. But I was able to get it cheap. The thing shot great. I started to have extraction issues with it, so I sold it. People calling them shit, Salvages, etc...

After reading tons of reviews about the 700 MilSpec 5R, I decided to purchase one in .308. Nothing but good reviews, and it just arrived yesterday. Now I'm starting to see the opposite. "Remington fucking sucks", "Savage is better, mine shoots .1 groups all day long with ball ammo at 500 yards". "My Savage performs better than my friends $5,000 custom".

Fuck. I'm just going to shoot. I'll tell you how it turns out with my shit scope and rifle.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
I just purchased my first savage bolt action and it should be here today (12 LRP in 6.5 CM). While I do lean towards my favorite manufactures, I try to give every brand a fair shake and find out for myself the positives and negatives as many of the problems I have read on various forums appear to be more operator error and over-expectations of the rifle purchased (ie. expecting a 300 dollar rifle to shoot like a 3k custom). If it does not shoot well, I will work on it until it does. Additionally, what I believe the post put up by MoBoost alludes too is that many are quick to put up a pic of their "great rifle" but very few are willing to actually prove how well it shoots by posting groups.
 
Let's be honest:

Savages are popular because they're the SOPMOD of bolt action rifles. Anybody with half a brain, minimal tools and the slightest mechanical inclination can swap barrels and bolt heads and go from a 204 to a 338 Edge on the same action...and they're less expensive than 700s.

And they're less expensive than 700s in part because anybody with half a brain, minimal tools and the slightest mechanical inclination can put them together from a bin of parts.

Most people, even many Savage "haters", acknowledge Savages have pretty good accuracy and most people, even Savage fanboiis, acknowledge Savages have reliability issues (specifically extraction/ejection).

I choose Savage because I could build the rifle I wanted for substantially less $$$ than a custom. Does it mean its as good as a custom? No. Does it mean its just as or more accurate than a custom? No. Do my Savages shoot 0.25MOA twenty shot groups at eleventeen thousand yards like so many folks seem to claim? Absolutely not!

I got to build the rifle I wanted (20" 1:8 260) with quality stock & DBM (McM A5 w/ CDI) for about 10% more than a factory 700 5R. And along the way I tried stocks, barrels, scopes, etc. to see what I liked and didn't like, and sold stuff at a loss while chalking that loss up to education.

Knowing then what I know now, I'd find a 20" T3 Sporter in 260 and call it a day. But I didn't, so instead of eating ramen for months and making my kids go without diapers and formula I built my rifles as funds allowed and ya know what, I'm damn happy with them (and *gasp* my Vortex scopes). But that doesn't mean its the "best" mousetrap - I'd argue a Rem-Age provides all the upsides of both types of actions.
 
Good post boiler. On the 260 sporter, i got a 24" model. Shot really good, glassy bolt operation, but the barrel just went south. This was my first 260 and i had more issues keeping it in tune. It will be a 6 br now. I blame the 260 issues on it being a rem, lol. Just kidding folks, it was a barrel issue. On the remage, they do work good, mine tied for second in the first 100 yd challenge that elfster put on.
 
Why does everybody say a Savage is cheaper? Compare them apples to apples, they are about the same money for like products. It was true years ago, but not in 2013.

Neither rifle is perfect, but shoot better than 99% of their customers can anyway. Hell, shooting 1 MOA in every position would win pretty much every tactical match you go to. Its the indian, not the arrow. Buy what you like and quit arguing about it on the internet. The time you spend you could be dry-firing or working and making money to make yourself a better shooter.
 
tylerw02 said:
Why does everybody say a Savage is cheaper? Compare them apples to apples ...
Click to expand...

MoBoost said:
FYI I paid $529 for BOTH rifles last week on gunbroker
Click to expand...

Something about buy one get one free seems "cheaper" to me ....

700 SPS Tac in 308 is $488 shipped @ Buds; I haven't seen a used one for less then $550 yet ... Take it as you wish - but I am starting to think there is something "off" with Remington owners as a collective. And it's rubbing off. After two weeks of very aggressive shopping/bidding I am actually starting to think that it's OK to pay $600 for a bottom of the barrel donor rifle. This aint right.
 
MoBoost said:
Something about buy one get one free seems "cheaper" to me ....

700 SPS Tac in 308 is $488 shipped @ Buds; I haven't seen a used one for less then $550 yet ... Take it as you wish - but I am starting to think there is something "off" with Remington owners as a collective. And it's rubbing off. After two weeks of very aggressive shopping/bidding I am actually starting to think that it's OK to pay $600 for a bottom of the barrel donor rifle. This aint right.
Click to expand...

Damn, I must have really been had;) I paid $550.00, 4 rounds used, for the 700 SPS Tact and sold it for $500.00 two weeks later. As for the "cheaper" Savages, the Model 10, 24' barrel Predator Hunter ran me close to $800.00. Cheapest I've seen one was $710.00 but not while it was "in stock".

In candor, I'll be quick to admit there's good and bad in everything and to expect 1/4 MOA accuracy in a mass produced offering is a ludicrous concept. However, one maker is widely renowned on all the shooting forums while the other is more that often maligned. I think the times may be a changin' as they said in a song a long time ago. I believe than anyone walking in the door to drop $500.00 or more for a factory gun has reason to expect 1 MOA accuracy if they know how to shoot and use decent ammo. Even average quality glass can deliver good views with an "+" that marks the spot at 500 yards and under in broad daylight, so hitting the middle should not be all that big a deal if the base gun is reasonably good.

Unfortunately my first experience with the most touted maker, initiated because of all the hype stating they were much "better" than what I was shooting, was a bad one, while my first experience with the oft maligned maker was very, very good in all aspects. I really would have preferred to only buy once and build from there. As has been noted by a couple of others, some of us can't run out and drop $3 to $8k for that super shooter. We have to start with what is thought to be a quality product and work our way up with upgrades as funding permits. So what we buy should shoot well enough to hit what we aim at within reasonable distances if we do what we are supposed to do.

For the record, I've seen an old Sears 270 Win. shoot less than 1/2 MOA at 200 yards as stock as the day it was made 20 years ago, so I don't believe it's unreasonable to get a reasonably accurate rifle from production run products, regardless of who makes it.
 
Yep Savage sucks, its ugly and ejects like sht, dont buy one.

I have 4, and they out shoot my built remmys with no mods. I have modded them, all by myself, they really outshoot my remmys now. The Savage is the KLR 650 of the gun world. Don't buy them, I like the cheap prices I get them at.
 
I own one Savage (Stevens 200) but I certainly understand part of the sentiment of the haters. Their stocks are pure shit, plain and simple. Accustock or not, not a nickles worth of difference.

The part about them that I love is the floating/interchangeable bolt head and the barrel nut. The Stevens 200 that I bought was purely for the action, the rest was canned. A Criterion barrel, SSS trigger, PT&G bolt body, replacement bolt handle, cerakote finish applied myself and the whole thing mounted in one of the new Savage AI Chassis created the most accurate rifle I own. It is more accurate than my GAP M-70. The beauty is I can rebarrel to another caliber whenever I want to very easily. What is not to love about that? The only thing different about what I did and what others do to build a custom Remington 700 based rifle is that I was able to do it myself without machine tools, and the results are the equivalent of a rifle that would cost at least twice as much.
 
If all you can afford is a savage, then you can't afford the ammo to shoot. Guns are the cheap part. Ammo is the expensive part. If save $30 buying a savage because you don't have $30, you may as well buy a .22 instead.


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"If all you can afford is a Savage"....

Because its totally unpossible that somebody would be *able* to spend more, but chooses not to, because they would not get any additional value for the additional expense.
 
tylerw02 said:
If all you can afford is a savage, then you can't afford the ammo to shoot. Guns are the cheap part. Ammo is the expensive part. If save $30 buying a savage because you don't have $30, you may as well buy a .22 instead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So the guy who buys a 700 SPS Tactical can afford to shoot, however the guy who buys a Savage 10 FCP McMillan can't?

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