Just made this choice recently. I'd keep my 8" LWRC PSD in 6.8mm spc. Got an eotech and flip to side magnifier on it..
Does it all
Does it all
- Thread starter NavyshooterM40
- Start date
The one I have does everything you can want from CQB to making hits out to ~800.
Mk12Mod1 in 5.56
USO 1-8
Ops Inc 12th Model Suppressor
With the optic at a true 1x allowing for NTCH 2 eyes open shooting it is as effective at CQB or non-static shooting at closer ranges and can carry out to ~800 yards effectively with the 77gr round yet is still lighter than AR10/308 AR configurations.
Mk12Mod1 in 5.56
USO 1-8
Ops Inc 12th Model Suppressor
With the optic at a true 1x allowing for NTCH 2 eyes open shooting it is as effective at CQB or non-static shooting at closer ranges and can carry out to ~800 yards effectively with the 77gr round yet is still lighter than AR10/308 AR configurations.
sweet!
I go 458S.
It's not got the range that 223 does but it comes in like a freight train.
It's not got the range that 223 does but it comes in like a freight train.
Platform? Are we talking rails??
When I hear about SHTF scenarios, I guess the regional and economic realities need to be factored in. I've heard this SHTF contingency planning referenced throughout my life. When I saw store shelves go mostly bare after Sandy Hook, the first rifle calibers to disappear were:
.223 Rem/5.56 NATO
.308 Win/7.62 NATO
Bam,gone. This is where I think there is a lot of merit to a gun that has the ability to quickly change barrels, but the AR15 is already modular, so it's even easier to pop off the upper and replace it with another. That's coming from someone who owns 2 of the MGI QCB uppers. The only one I'm currently using is one that I treat like a standard upper group, because it's a PITA to get the barrel out. In a logistics deprived environment, it's easier to change the barrel than an LMT because there are no tools necessary, but I don't do it often.
Two calibers that I did see stay on the shelves during the ammo shortages were .243 Winchester, and 7mm-08. Funny thing is, LMT makes drop-in barrels for both, and no other components change in the system because they are both children of the .308, with the same shoulder location and angle, so they feed from standard mags for the SR25 and LMT.
That said, the little 16" LMT is a freaking pig for weight, and needs a diet like no other AR-based carbine that I have ever hefted. They did very well by introducing the new version with the slickside upper/handguard without all the unnecessary rails all over, but the barrel profile by nature of the pinch attachment in the receiver has a huge OD and shank for a much longer distance than other .308 carbine barrels.
As to oddball calibers, you have what you have in the end, how ever much of that you have stored for yourself and your family. If your neighbors have a .30-30 Winchester 2 houses down, a .270 and .30-06 across the street, and maybe someone behind you has a vismod AR15 made from gunshow parts with a few boxes of Wolf, it really doesn't matter what caliber you choose, as long as you stack it deep for yourself and family.
One thing I like about the Grendel is that I can form it from 7.62x39 in a single pass of the sizing die, then fire-form, but the fire-form loads are very effective in and of themselves, and can be used for training in a limited log chain environment.
For those that say the SCAR-17, I can't argue with you that much because the gun is so lightweight, and handles well. I would prefer a sturdier stock, but the folding feature allows more convenient carry options, and the guns have been exceptionally accurate for a production self-loader.
.223 Rem/5.56 NATO
.308 Win/7.62 NATO
Bam,gone. This is where I think there is a lot of merit to a gun that has the ability to quickly change barrels, but the AR15 is already modular, so it's even easier to pop off the upper and replace it with another. That's coming from someone who owns 2 of the MGI QCB uppers. The only one I'm currently using is one that I treat like a standard upper group, because it's a PITA to get the barrel out. In a logistics deprived environment, it's easier to change the barrel than an LMT because there are no tools necessary, but I don't do it often.
Two calibers that I did see stay on the shelves during the ammo shortages were .243 Winchester, and 7mm-08. Funny thing is, LMT makes drop-in barrels for both, and no other components change in the system because they are both children of the .308, with the same shoulder location and angle, so they feed from standard mags for the SR25 and LMT.
That said, the little 16" LMT is a freaking pig for weight, and needs a diet like no other AR-based carbine that I have ever hefted. They did very well by introducing the new version with the slickside upper/handguard without all the unnecessary rails all over, but the barrel profile by nature of the pinch attachment in the receiver has a huge OD and shank for a much longer distance than other .308 carbine barrels.
As to oddball calibers, you have what you have in the end, how ever much of that you have stored for yourself and your family. If your neighbors have a .30-30 Winchester 2 houses down, a .270 and .30-06 across the street, and maybe someone behind you has a vismod AR15 made from gunshow parts with a few boxes of Wolf, it really doesn't matter what caliber you choose, as long as you stack it deep for yourself and family.
One thing I like about the Grendel is that I can form it from 7.62x39 in a single pass of the sizing die, then fire-form, but the fire-form loads are very effective in and of themselves, and can be used for training in a limited log chain environment.
For those that say the SCAR-17, I can't argue with you that much because the gun is so lightweight, and handles well. I would prefer a sturdier stock, but the folding feature allows more convenient carry options, and the guns have been exceptionally accurate for a production self-loader.
I have most AR15 calibers, but would have to decide between a 12.5 Daniel Defense in 556 or a 14.5 Grendel if only one were available. The Grendel is my current truck gun and can take on anything thus far experienced so I would most likely choose it.
When one really has to hike for long periods of time with gun and gear, I for one value the lighter wt rifle configuration vs an AR10 platform. The 14.5 with folding stock adapter,ACOG, and T1 cover most bases for me. When hunting in a rugged environment I will carry a 12lb plus rifle for a day or 2 cause I know it isn't going to kill me for a couple of days to hump a 24 to 26" heavy barrel. And I can shoot offhand considerably better with the extra wt and length.
When one really has to hike for long periods of time with gun and gear, I for one value the lighter wt rifle configuration vs an AR10 platform. The 14.5 with folding stock adapter,ACOG, and T1 cover most bases for me. When hunting in a rugged environment I will carry a 12lb plus rifle for a day or 2 cause I know it isn't going to kill me for a couple of days to hump a 24 to 26" heavy barrel. And I can shoot offhand considerably better with the extra wt and length.
I would choose my daniel defense lightweight in 5.56 with a vortex pst 1x4 on it. Easy to pack around. Spare parts availability. Can carry lots of mags and ammo. Accurate enough. Back up sights on it as well in the Troy flavor just in case something happens to my scope.
Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2
What, exactly, are you asking? AR10 vs AR15 vs LR308 "platform"? Or simply what caliber upper? Or brand? Just to shoot? For SHTF?
I don't think there's a one-gun-does-it-all solution. I have an LMT slick, SCAR 17, and other fun stuff and the "just one" really depends on what is most important to you.
Just to have and to shoot then a .223 is your starting point -- light, cheap (relatively) ammo, versatile
The LMT is too heavy to hump if I were carrying my life on my back with the coming of TEOTWAWKI, but sheltering in place and keeping the marauders at bay it would be outstanding. Get barrels in .260, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .243.
The SCAR is light, relatively, but ammo is heavy. What do you think you'll be shooting? If it is targets go back to the .223. Are you talking SHTF? Many worry about shooting game, but during the Great Depression game like deer were almost wiped out in short order. In a SHTF situation with today's population you won't have to worry about shooting anything bigger than a rabbit or squirrel in short order.
Unless you're worried about bipeds. If you have no base of operations resupply would be a concern. People will buy out .223 and .308 to be sure, but those same people will have it on hand if it comes to that. If you have a base from which to resupply but you're venturing forth to search for Kevin Costner with a mail bag I think the Grendel and 6.8 SPC are very attractive. The Noveske 14.5" Afghan in 6.8 would be a great choice IMO if you were in a wooded area. A Grendel would be great if you lived in a wide open area.
If you're just asking about brands, everyone has their favourites, but if I could have only one I would spring for one of the higher priced options with a stellar reputation.
I have a splitting headache so I've likely not thought of everything, moreover, I certainly don't know everything. Hopefully you get enough information to make a decision that is best for you. Ideally, of course, none of us should have even bothered without first giving us more information. It's not too late to narrow it down.
If you're just trolling for action because you're bored, no worries. I don't often bother with threads like this and I'm probably due for my quarterly contribution. Perhaps someone who really needs information will find something useful in all the posts.
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Admittedly, I have had not so well placed shots on medium sized pig with 5.56 and they bastards run still. Had it been 308 the fucker would have been down. I say a short 308, goes through car doors and brick really good.
It really depends on what the point of the question is. Is it a scenario where the wife says you need to thin your heard(and you actually listen) but all ammo is still readily available or a SHTF scenario. If its a SHTF scenario, all wildcats would have to be immediately ruled out. If any ammo would be available I think Id pick a Grendel or 6.8, but if its an end of the world deal, it would have to be 223. At the end of the day the platform and ammo is a lot lighter with 223, no way Id want to hump a large frame AR or its ammo for any length of time. Id prefer the extra rounds over the more powerful. Kind of a 9mm vs 45 debate by proxy.
I would think if this were a shtf scenario using shooting something out to 1000yds might draw more attention to you where if you just let it pass. So I would vote for a good ar15 platform with a 22lr conversion and a pocket full of shells. With the .223 bcg in your other pocket with a few mags. 22 would take out the zombies with a head shot and the 223 for the looters trying to steal your stash. Lol
Id take my 18" grendel. Nothing wrong with 556 or 308, but asked and answered.
Would a Fulton Armory M14 Scout count? you have the AR of Armory which sounds pretty close....
I am taking it as SHTF senerio. If your wife is making you make a decision then grow some balls and tell her no!!) I would also look at that oils and cleaning will be hard to come by which would make me choose a piston set up (imho) due to not as much need for lube or cleaning. I would choose between my 556 or 308 Hogan Gun rifles. Simple system with no springs for maintance and no lube needed. I'm not starting a DI to piston debate just my opinion and choice if it came to it...
Too funny....Guess I should get a piston gun.
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And I guess I should get a "6.8 spc II"...because...it is so "fun to shoot"!! Great point....you sold me on it. lol
Kevin Costner used a CAR. I'd go with that.
Some Background:
I've used a lot of weapons in conditions that are worse than what many are considering SHTF, like spending weeks or months in a 3rd-world fecal cesspool, frozen mountains in the winter, rainy season in Panama, and dust storms combined with sea travel with weapons in the Middle East.
The op-rod driven weapons like the M60, M240, M14, SAW, FAL, FNC, Galil, AKM, AK-74, and SVD have required significantly more maintenance than the DI M16 and M4's.
Reliability Myths
Also, contrary to what I expected, the AK variants run into a lot of problems in extreme cold temperatures, as well as high humidity conditions. Very rarely do you hear about people conducting high-volume training in Arctic weather, which is much harder on guns than any other climate I can think of. Take a gun in sub-zero temps, like -27 C/-17 F, then go through a CQM package from 0900-1800, day after day, and see what starts to crap the bed. Weapon temps will go from ambient, to hundreds of degrees in the barrel and gas block, then drop rapidly back down to ambient.
I would take that into consideration as you seriously think about a weapon that you will expect minimum maintenance on, or anticipate being limited on maintenance materials. Oil can be found in any 3rd-world hole, but bore-cleaning equipment is a different issue. Most of us that live above a certain latitude/altitude index would experience significant temperature drops in out homes with a loss of power, and rationing of generator usage. Indoor storage of weapons would likely see significant condensation on the guns in these temps.
Receiver Material
This is one of the main reasons why I like aircaft-grade aluminum receivers over steel, since they seem to hold dimensional uniformity over a wide temp range very well. One of my suspicions with the AK variants that always seem to crap the bed in extreme cold (minus the Sako and Valmet guns), is the crude tolerances being pushed to the extremes with temp sensitivity. I've seen it on Arsenal stamped and billet AK's now, and wouldn't even mess with a Romanian or Middle Eastern guns after breaking them in high-volume sessions right off the bat. The Chinese blued receivers are an immediate no-go for surface corrosion.
The Design That Really Shines
If there was one, lightweight carbine design that I would easily choose for myself over all others, after seeing so many different assault rifle designs run in high-volume/extreme cold, it would easily be a well-built Direct Impingement AR15 carbine, with 7075 T6 receivers hard-coat anodized with a deep-penetrating Type III surface hardening, then H-series Cerakote applied per NIC specs. I would also consider a NiB, hard chrome, or TiN bolt carrier group with polished rails on the carrier if using a chrome or TiN.
Whatever barrel you choose, I would Cerakote the outside of it, and Cerakote every metal external surface component of the gun, including the gas block, muzzle device, receivers, extension tube, end plate, lock nut, and even the ejection port door and Forward Assist button just to guarantee that no rust or oxidizing will have a chance of forming on the surface of the gun.
LPK's-Don't Ignore the Grip
I would also select a lower parts kit with MPI'd MIM components, with Mil-spec cadmium-plated detents, unlike most of the LPK's on the market. I had a Gen I Magpul MIAD grip on a RRA MLGS 16" carbine that I used in a high-volume 3-day course in the Arctic in Novemebr 2007, with an Ase-Utra CQB QD suppressor. In the evening of the first day, I noticed my grip was loose, so I went to tighten it back at the barracks, and realized that it had fragmented, and the small tabs on the grip core and backstrap had broken off.
I had a spare grip on-hand, so I pulled the Gen I MIAD and went to install the spare. When the selector detent fell out, I was literally watching corrosion have a fizzle party on the detent. I had never seen anything like this in 10 years of active duty service in units where all we did was take weapons into bad places and abuse them. I didn't know it at the time, but the Mil-spec calls for a cadmium-plated set of detents for the TD and Pivot Pins, as well as the selector. Very few after-market manufacturers use cadmium-plated detents because it's expensive, and the customer will "never know".
Operating Systems
After what I have seen in high-humidity environments, and especially cold-wet climates, an op-rod, (or even worse: a spring-driven op-rod separate from the recoil or drive spring design) would be at the bottom of my list for being maintenance-intensive. You don't just get to leave the guns alone and expect magic to happen with regard to maintenance on areas where temperature shifts and moisture accumulation go hand-in-hand, like the gas block, gas tube, and op-rod housing.
As such, I can say that the AR15 DI system is one of the best ways of dealing with extreme cold and high-humidity environments, which it already proved in 1957-1959 in the Arctic testing that was done in Alaska.
If you want to see a prime example of how spring-driven op-rods do in extreme cold, look at the Soviet experience with the SVT-38 in the Winter War. The SVT-38 was going to be the Russian Army's new service rifle, since Stalin had a fixation with it being a self-loader. It performed miserably, so they used its gas system for the SVD in the 1960's. The FAL has a very similar op-rod system, with a user-controlled gas regulator to deal with reliability in harsh conditions.
Ask anyone in the British Royal Marines, Army, or Aussies what would happen to you in an infantry unit if you neglected maintenance on an SLR.
I've used a lot of weapons in conditions that are worse than what many are considering SHTF, like spending weeks or months in a 3rd-world fecal cesspool, frozen mountains in the winter, rainy season in Panama, and dust storms combined with sea travel with weapons in the Middle East.
The op-rod driven weapons like the M60, M240, M14, SAW, FAL, FNC, Galil, AKM, AK-74, and SVD have required significantly more maintenance than the DI M16 and M4's.
Reliability Myths
Also, contrary to what I expected, the AK variants run into a lot of problems in extreme cold temperatures, as well as high humidity conditions. Very rarely do you hear about people conducting high-volume training in Arctic weather, which is much harder on guns than any other climate I can think of. Take a gun in sub-zero temps, like -27 C/-17 F, then go through a CQM package from 0900-1800, day after day, and see what starts to crap the bed. Weapon temps will go from ambient, to hundreds of degrees in the barrel and gas block, then drop rapidly back down to ambient.
I would take that into consideration as you seriously think about a weapon that you will expect minimum maintenance on, or anticipate being limited on maintenance materials. Oil can be found in any 3rd-world hole, but bore-cleaning equipment is a different issue. Most of us that live above a certain latitude/altitude index would experience significant temperature drops in out homes with a loss of power, and rationing of generator usage. Indoor storage of weapons would likely see significant condensation on the guns in these temps.
Receiver Material
This is one of the main reasons why I like aircaft-grade aluminum receivers over steel, since they seem to hold dimensional uniformity over a wide temp range very well. One of my suspicions with the AK variants that always seem to crap the bed in extreme cold (minus the Sako and Valmet guns), is the crude tolerances being pushed to the extremes with temp sensitivity. I've seen it on Arsenal stamped and billet AK's now, and wouldn't even mess with a Romanian or Middle Eastern guns after breaking them in high-volume sessions right off the bat. The Chinese blued receivers are an immediate no-go for surface corrosion.
The Design That Really Shines
If there was one, lightweight carbine design that I would easily choose for myself over all others, after seeing so many different assault rifle designs run in high-volume/extreme cold, it would easily be a well-built Direct Impingement AR15 carbine, with 7075 T6 receivers hard-coat anodized with a deep-penetrating Type III surface hardening, then H-series Cerakote applied per NIC specs. I would also consider a NiB, hard chrome, or TiN bolt carrier group with polished rails on the carrier if using a chrome or TiN.
Whatever barrel you choose, I would Cerakote the outside of it, and Cerakote every metal external surface component of the gun, including the gas block, muzzle device, receivers, extension tube, end plate, lock nut, and even the ejection port door and Forward Assist button just to guarantee that no rust or oxidizing will have a chance of forming on the surface of the gun.
LPK's-Don't Ignore the Grip
I would also select a lower parts kit with MPI'd MIM components, with Mil-spec cadmium-plated detents, unlike most of the LPK's on the market. I had a Gen I Magpul MIAD grip on a RRA MLGS 16" carbine that I used in a high-volume 3-day course in the Arctic in Novemebr 2007, with an Ase-Utra CQB QD suppressor. In the evening of the first day, I noticed my grip was loose, so I went to tighten it back at the barracks, and realized that it had fragmented, and the small tabs on the grip core and backstrap had broken off.
I had a spare grip on-hand, so I pulled the Gen I MIAD and went to install the spare. When the selector detent fell out, I was literally watching corrosion have a fizzle party on the detent. I had never seen anything like this in 10 years of active duty service in units where all we did was take weapons into bad places and abuse them. I didn't know it at the time, but the Mil-spec calls for a cadmium-plated set of detents for the TD and Pivot Pins, as well as the selector. Very few after-market manufacturers use cadmium-plated detents because it's expensive, and the customer will "never know".
Operating Systems
After what I have seen in high-humidity environments, and especially cold-wet climates, an op-rod, (or even worse: a spring-driven op-rod separate from the recoil or drive spring design) would be at the bottom of my list for being maintenance-intensive. You don't just get to leave the guns alone and expect magic to happen with regard to maintenance on areas where temperature shifts and moisture accumulation go hand-in-hand, like the gas block, gas tube, and op-rod housing.
As such, I can say that the AR15 DI system is one of the best ways of dealing with extreme cold and high-humidity environments, which it already proved in 1957-1959 in the Arctic testing that was done in Alaska.
If you want to see a prime example of how spring-driven op-rods do in extreme cold, look at the Soviet experience with the SVT-38 in the Winter War. The SVT-38 was going to be the Russian Army's new service rifle, since Stalin had a fixation with it being a self-loader. It performed miserably, so they used its gas system for the SVD in the 1960's. The FAL has a very similar op-rod system, with a user-controlled gas regulator to deal with reliability in harsh conditions.
Ask anyone in the British Royal Marines, Army, or Aussies what would happen to you in an infantry unit if you neglected maintenance on an SLR.
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There's no way I couple settle for just one, that's why I have close to 10. My favorite would have to be my LPR, accurate as hell but light as well. It's wearing a SS12x42 for now which is far from an ideal dual purpose scope. I plan to run a 1-6 or 1-8 but I'm waiting to see what comes out at SHOT.
Since Service Rifle Competition rules essentially only allow for one sort of AR, that's the sort I shoot; but, I believe it would work well for most any other need I might have for a rifle. My rifle is accurate, reliable, powerful, maintainable, and supports all concepts important to good shooting.
I hate to tell you but piston guns need just as much lube as a DI gun, your statement to the contrary is absurd ... And may be you can show me somewhere how it is proven more reliable. And yeah 6.8 is fun to shoot with very little recoil, I don't need to explain the virtues of a 6.8 rifle as most here already know.... This isn't barfcom.. Never made a shtf scenario comparison like you. Good luck with proprietary parts though if you do have a failure with your shtf rifle in your shtf scenario. Good second post though, full of valuable disinformation. Maybe you should read the following.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...94CgDQ&usg=AFQjCNG4pA18g8vYIxgVaR-NBdhdrhaXNw
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Technical Note 54, Direct Impingement versus Piston Drive*Purpose: To compare the merits of internal and external piston drive systems.*Facts: The AR-15/M16 and the AR-10 family of rifles employ a unique gas powered operating system patented by Eugene Stoner in the 1950s. This gas operating system works by passing high pressure propellant gasses tapped from the barrel down a tube and into the carrier group within the upper receiver, and is commonly but incorrectly referred to as a “direct impingement” system.*The gas expands within a donut shaped gas cylinder within the carrier. Because the bolt is prevented from moving forward by the barrel, the carrier is driven to the rear by the expanding gasses and thus converts the energy of the gas to movement of the rifle’s parts. The bolt bears a piston head and the cavity in the bolt carrier is the piston sleeve. It is more correct to call it an “internal piston” system.*Most previous semiautomatic rifles use an “external piston” system operating in a gas cylinder mounted outside the receiver, but instead attached to the barrel. Propellant gasses expand within the cylinder and force the piston to the rear. The piston either contacts a rod that and drives a carrier to the rear (FAL), or are part of, connected to, or strike a rod segment that passed around the action to cam and move the bolt (M1, M14, AK- 47, SCAR). In some cases the piston is fixed and the movable cylinder drives the rod (AR-180).*Advantages and disadvantages.*The Stoner system provides a very symmetric design that allows straight line movement of the operating components. This allows recoil forces to drive straight to the rear. Instead of connecting or other mechanical parts driving the system, high pressure gas performs this function, reducing the weight of moving parts and the rifle as a whole.*In external piston systems, the path of the operating force is mechanically shifted around the action, resulting in a considerable mass of moving parts moving outside the centerline of the firearm and producing various torques within the system.*There is a common belief that the external piston operated systems are less accurate than the Stoner internal piston system because the operating parts start moving while the bullet is still in the bore. This is not true: Army Ordnance tests conducted in the 1960s revealed that the bullet is 25 feet out of the bore of the M1 and 15 feet out of the bore of the M14 before any operating part begins to move. It is more likely that the imbalances of the external piston, operating rod, cylinder, and other parts hanging on the barrel produce disruptive vibrations as the bullet exits the bore.*Although movement of the operating parts while the bullet is in the bore isn’t apparently a culprit in reducing the accuracy of external piston systems, the inherent accuracy of the Stoner internal piston system has been consistently confirmed in competitive shooting. In all events that allow use of any mechanism the shooter wishes, the Stoner internal piston system is prevailing. Few competitive shooters use the Garand or Kalashnikov systems, and none observed now use the FAL system. In American Service Rifle and NRA competition, the external-piston operated rifles are considered a significant disadvantage.*There is a debate about which system remains cleanest. The internal piston system tends to leave propellant residue in the receivers, while the external piston systems keep the residue outside the action in the cylinder. External piston driven systems, however, tend to allow more external dirt into the action because of the openings required for various connecting members (operating rod, bolt lugs, etc). Comparison tests of the M16 and the M-14 before Desert Storm confirmed the superiority of the Stoner system in sand and dust tests, and recent testing has proven that proper cleaning of either system provides excellent reliability.*ArmaLite concludes that there is no technical advantage to an external piston system employing current ammunition. It will likely, however, provide external-piston systems to the market as customers demand.*As a last note, misuse of the term “direct impingement” to describe the Stoner system is so common that it has confused the issue. A direct impingement system like that of the AG-42 Ljungman or the French MAS-49 rifle taps gas at the barrel and passes it into the receiver in a way similar to the M16, (the source of the confusion) but deposits it into a small, shallow cup or pocket in the carrier. The gas expands there and drives the carrier to the rear with relatively little pneumatic advantage. The addition of the Stoner internal piston system provides significantly more pneumatic advantage to the rifle and little of the blast of escaping gas at the breech end of the gas tube of the earlier rifles.*MARK A. WESTROM*President*Formerly titled “Technical Note 54, Gas Versus Piston Drive”*
Simple DPMS SASS can do everything that you need a ar to do
I'd go with an 12.5" 6.8 SPC. Awesome little caliber in a handy sized weapon.
I asked myself a similar question last year. I studied and compared ballistics and the realities of use. I went with "both". I assembled both a small frame and large frame in .260 at the same time. In the end, I opted for the AR platform. Id rather carry extra ammo, than the weight of the large platform. I went with .264 lbc from ARP. I put a larue rat stock on it, and a JP trigger at 3.5 pounds. It resets the same way every time, very consistent and matches the pull of my sidearm. The ARP 18" is/was a lighter profile than a MK12. Its noticeable, and easily carried, and i don't miss a heavier shorter barrel over it. I find the "pointability" the same as a 16". I like being able to easily throw 123gr'rs 800 yards without pushing it, and i have 24 rounds of it in the gun. It will put deer and hogs down without much fuss. Factory ammo is about the same cost as mk262 or red box. It pretty much does everything well, maybe not the greatest in either spectrum, but a solid relatively light weight and multipurpose gun that is worth every penny to me. Id rather have this rifle, than my issue M4 for sure.
Except it is beast to hump thru the boondocks or anywhere else. From an owner of one.
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Im gonna have to disagree with you on this one. My POF P308 with NP3 coated upper and lower receivers and Nickel and NP3 BCG requires next to no lube. Light spray of Remoil on the bolt every 300-400 rounds is all it requires. That is also all the lube POF recommends in their P308 instructional cleaning video. Not a single malfunction to date.
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When the manufacturer of that gun tells you that's what's best for it then yes that means that's what's best for it. You obviously didn't read my previous post before posting yourself.
Sent from my Sprint Galaxy S4
Uhhh, so I guess if a pinto takes takes less oil than an f-250, it's a more reliable and better vehicle. Yeah, I can't say I get that logic. It doesn't matter what your one gun is, if you are not at the top of your game mentally and physically, someone else will be carrying it in short order. And then you can just get unlucky and take one through the jello holder like so many good men have.
What brand, caliber, operating system, etc. is one of the last things you need to worry about.
What brand, caliber, operating system, etc. is one of the last things you need to worry about.
That's funny.... I personally don't care how you lube your stick.... Your rational is amusing and border line we tod did.... Lol
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Then you shouldn't be spewing misinformation about things you have no knowledge of.
Sent from my Sprint Galaxy S4
MWS, it's proven itself to me.
That's hilarious.... I can and have provided information to back up everything I say.... What have you provided? First of all it was about DI and piston rifles and you interject with np3 this and that, which has nothing to do with anything especially since either type rifle can use it, so your point was pointless.... It's clear I know more than you and your super tacticool no lube needing POS... I mean POF... Lol... Nothing against Pof... Good rifle but you've gone full retard. Companies luv tacticool mall ninjas like you that eat up their no or less lube required cause of our latest greatest coating.... Fact is anyone that really knows.... Knows that you have to lube or you are just hurting yourself and your rifles.
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You are obviously having a bad day or need to get laid. I can't help you my friend...
Sent from my Sprint Galaxy S4
That is so true and the real reality
This is M'erica! I can have as many as I can afford!
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I would go with an 18" AR-10 style rifle. a buddy of mine has an 18" REPR and I like it but I personally wouldn't go with the side charger or piston. a mk-12 looking build in 308 would be sweet...
Well you have taught me a lot with all your amazing knowledge...
1)You have taught me how to use the copy and past function. As looked up the Armalite websight all I see is they are a manufacture of ARs and parts that does not produce a piston rifle (which if that is true would be like going into a chevy dealership and asking them if ford is better). Then also the article that you so intelligently gave me to learn off of also states that they couldn't prove the debate that I was talking about....how clean and how much oil was gonna be needed to operate either system in a shtf situation (lube not sitting on a shelf): "There is a debate about which system remains cleanest. The internal piston system tends to leave propellant residue in the receivers, while the external piston systems keep the residue outside the action in the cylinder. External piston driven systems, however, tend to allow more external dirt into the action because of the openings required for various connecting members (operating rod, bolt lugs, etc). Comparison tests of the M16 and the M-14 before Desert Storm confirmed the superiority of the Stoner system in sand and dust tests, and recent testing has proven that proper cleaning of either system provides excellent reliability." I never said that my rifle was gonna out last yours. Just said that "IMHO" I would choose a piston system if shtf where I live.
2)I know you don't need to explain how great the 6.8 is but(which I do believe it is a great caliber but I would not want it as my only rifle if shtf)....since I now have thrown my piston rifles away (I still have a few DI systems left "whew") and all none 6.8 round rifles I would like your help in finding how to replace the thousands of rounds I had in other calibers because I went to every gun store within 100 miles and could hardly get enough ammo to sight a scope in with!!) But like you have stated in every 6.8 arguement you have been in "the information is being skewed".... And I would bet that my proprietary rifle choice would out last your 6.8 ammo supply if we are wanting to have a who can piss farther contest...so good luck to you too!!
3)And boy am I glad this isn't barfcom...but you arguing with everyone that doesn't agree with all your statements does make this feel like this is a barfcom thread or you are one of them. If you noticed you are the only one arguing with anybody and there are a lot of debatable opinions that people are saying...well in about every thread including this one.
4)So I thought I would copy and paste something too: Part 3: The Best Survival Carbine (AR Style Rifle)
Not that I feel this proves anything but showing that it is debatable and I too can copy and paste!
5)This I agree with Delta4-3 and you on: "It doesn't matter what your one gun is, if you are not at the top of your game mentally and physically, someone else will be carrying it in short order. And then you can just get unlucky and take one through the jello holder like so many good men have.
What brand, caliber, operating system, etc. is one of the last things you need to worry about."
So like I said in my orginal post I'm stating my opinion on what I own (which is both styles) and which I would choose if I had to go out my door armed. Most test/debates done, whether it is which caliber or which one is right republican or democrat has "skewed information" on both sides. Which is why I went out and bought both (DI and piston)and decided for myself what I was after. And also like I stated in my post "I'm not starting a DI to piston debate just my opinion and choice if it came to it..."! Now LRRPF52 has some awesome info in his post and is great first hand experience (thanks for your service and dedication to this country which allows us to sit in our homes and debate this petty stuff)!
So once again this not the debate I wanted this to turn into on a subject that is debatable, so sorry to the OP that started this thread..
Just for the sake of conversation...
I had a large frame DPMS 243 Win and a Olympic arms AR243WSSM on a regular AR, both shooting 105's at the same speed. The 243WSSM had much less rifle movement during action cycling, also it was a couple pounds lighter than the DPMS.
I have to admit that I like short and light handy rifles if I'm going to be doing any shooting other than off the bipod. Unfortunately I'm not apprised as to what Co's make the most well made and reliable AR's or who makes the best aftermarket parts for that matter. What I do know is I want better long range performance than a 223 or a 308 offers.
I like the advantages the 5.68DMR offers. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-berger-2905-fps-impossible-not-so-much.htmlI posted somewhere in AZPRC's thread why. It's darn near 22-250 in performance and works with any 224 cal bullet.
So my idea of having just one AR would be having a reliable 5.68DMR made as light as possible with a 7 twist 18" match grade barrel and all the highest quality parts with the best coatings like LRRPF52 mentioned.
I had a large frame DPMS 243 Win and a Olympic arms AR243WSSM on a regular AR, both shooting 105's at the same speed. The 243WSSM had much less rifle movement during action cycling, also it was a couple pounds lighter than the DPMS.
I have to admit that I like short and light handy rifles if I'm going to be doing any shooting other than off the bipod. Unfortunately I'm not apprised as to what Co's make the most well made and reliable AR's or who makes the best aftermarket parts for that matter. What I do know is I want better long range performance than a 223 or a 308 offers.
I like the advantages the 5.68DMR offers. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-berger-2905-fps-impossible-not-so-much.htmlI posted somewhere in AZPRC's thread why. It's darn near 22-250 in performance and works with any 224 cal bullet.
So my idea of having just one AR would be having a reliable 5.68DMR made as light as possible with a 7 twist 18" match grade barrel and all the highest quality parts with the best coatings like LRRPF52 mentioned.
My 6.8 SPC would get the call.
I'm not even gonna attempt to retort most of what's in your reply, as it is asinine, but actually humorous that it took you a whole two days to write it ..I will say your arguments just make you look like a dolt. Everyone can read what I wrote and what you wrote and make a judgment.... FYI.... When you make statements saying one system is better than another and list unsubstantiated reasons as to why expect for people to call you on it.... Saying your not trying to start a debate is bs.... Making those statements is welcoming a debate. Ohh and show me where in my statement that I said I chose my 6.8 for a shtf scenario? Fact is I didn't and I'm not sure I would as I have plenty of Ar's in a variety of calibers, a shtf scenario was not mentioned on the op.... Just shows again that you have no idea what you are talking about or have an issue with reading comprehension.
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16" AR-10 with USO 1.8-10x scope and dueck defense rapid transition offset sights.
If I combine everything I like from multiple rifles:
16.5" 7.62 Heavy Barrel (Montana Gunsmith for bang for buck accuracy)
Mega upper/lower just because I like those guys and their work is top-notch
Lancer Carbon Fiber Handguard (weight + great barrel nut system) JP if I can't get Lancer
Geissele SDE trigger, for obvious reasons
Battle Arms Selector
Knight's mags until someone else comes up with one that works as well for cheaper (looking at you Lancer!)
Magpul CTR
Leupold Mk6 DMR
Badger Rings
That rifle would make me happy to do everything from plink to plunk out to about 600m. Light enough to carry around the mountains, accurate enough to hit what I need, short enough to not be cumbersome.
16.5" 7.62 Heavy Barrel (Montana Gunsmith for bang for buck accuracy)
Mega upper/lower just because I like those guys and their work is top-notch
Lancer Carbon Fiber Handguard (weight + great barrel nut system) JP if I can't get Lancer
Geissele SDE trigger, for obvious reasons
Battle Arms Selector
Knight's mags until someone else comes up with one that works as well for cheaper (looking at you Lancer!)
Magpul CTR
Leupold Mk6 DMR
Badger Rings
That rifle would make me happy to do everything from plink to plunk out to about 600m. Light enough to carry around the mountains, accurate enough to hit what I need, short enough to not be cumbersome.
This thread was actually good reading, with some well thought out replies, until Regalkismet showed up ...
I probably would grab my MATEN .308. For me it's the perfect weight coming in at 10 3/4 pounds loaded, 20" barrel and a 1-6 VX-6 scope. It's proven reliable in all the Midwest conditions I've used it in, and fits me well. I do love my 14.5" lightweight middy Daniel Defense build, but just wouldn't have confidence in 223 doing all I'd need it to do. And as much as I love my 6.8's, my meager 1500 round stockpile would run out quickly. If ammo cost and availability concerns were moot however, I'd probably go with my 16" Noveske 6.8 build.
I probably would grab my MATEN .308. For me it's the perfect weight coming in at 10 3/4 pounds loaded, 20" barrel and a 1-6 VX-6 scope. It's proven reliable in all the Midwest conditions I've used it in, and fits me well. I do love my 14.5" lightweight middy Daniel Defense build, but just wouldn't have confidence in 223 doing all I'd need it to do. And as much as I love my 6.8's, my meager 1500 round stockpile would run out quickly. If ammo cost and availability concerns were moot however, I'd probably go with my 16" Noveske 6.8 build.
If I had to go forward with only one, never really knowing the future, I'd choose an AR-15 in 5.56 / .223 with a 16" or 18" barrel. I'm confident in both the platform and cartridge whether for recreation, hunting / survival, or protection / defense. I use this combination much more than any other firearm in my collection. It's very versatile, and it just plain works.
