Headspace problem on 223?

[bbowles]

I have a DD AR15 chambered in 5.56. Started reloading for it recently. Started with factory fired brass to get feet wet. Then moved to new unfired Lapua 223 brass.

My question is am going to have issues from excess headspace? When bought this new brass the headspace was only 1.444" (measured with Sinclair bump gauge). So I ran thru FL sizer to make sure neck dimensions right. After fired first reload the avg headspace on this brass was 1.463 which is about same as factory fired ammo ranging 1.460-1.463" so, the first fire forming load increased brass from 1.444 new to 1.463. Is there anyway to get new brass that is closer to 1.463" to keep from stretching so much? Or is this just way all 223/5.56 brass starts life?

My second loading of this brass I resized down about .003 to 1.460". And all has performed flawlessly. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[427Cobra]

There is no way that I know of to stretch brass without firing it, just keep doing as you have been, bump your fired cases .003

 

[Clark]

If you push an over sized expander ball into a neck and pull it out, and then push the shoulder back a little, there will be a tiny shoulder around the neck that is forward and can stand up to the firing pin push. If the firing pin can't push the case forward, it will not stretch much.

The late Randy Ketchum had a 243 that was headspace a whole thread too much. He prepped his brass this way, and never fixed the barrel.

I explained that to Greg Langelius in email in 2001.
I think I am getting old

 

[smschulz]

My second loading of this brass I resized down about .003 to 1.460". And all has performed flawlessly. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

I think you answered your own question.

Don't pay too much mind to the factory new spec but your resized specs look right on to me.

 

[SWThomas]

Sounds like you're doing it right to me. I don't even size new brass unless the neck is damaged. Even then I just run the ball through it to make it round. I used some of my less desireable powder and fire form all the brass I'm going to work with. Then I start the real loading.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I use a Sinclair .223 shoulder bump gauge. My measurements (which are a little different than yours, but doesn't matter) of about 5 different Military and commercial .223 / 5.56 loaded rounds measure in the 1.426"-1.427" range. Cases fired in my Sig 516 measure between 1.434"-1.437". I shoulder bump my cases in the 1.428"-1.430" range for the Sig and they chamber and function in the Sig nicely.

Cases fired in my Remington factory .223 700 V measure 1.427". It definitely has a snug chamber.

I wouldn't worry about your new cases. Shoot them and bump them back .003" and you should get good brass life as long as you don't hot rod them and stretch the primer pockets out.

 

[bbowles]

As always the guys at the Hide give me good answers! Thanks alot. I felt like all was ok but wanted to run it by some guys with alot more experience.

Clark,
your post was over my head. What are you trying to tell me? I am sure it is great stuff but I am not following you. Look forward to hearing about this.

Just a side note. I have ran the Sierra Match 69 & 77 to max listed loads per Hodgdon's & Sierra load manuals with no signs of any excess pressure. Doubt I better push it farther but glad to see this. Powder was Varget. Velocity was 2444 for 77 gr and 2700 for 69. Surprised that at max loading the 69 had higher velocity by that much margin over the 77.

 

[colscar]

i was told for autoloaders was to bump the shoulder back .003 from fired case and measure if your with in sammi specs

 

[SWThomas]

i was told for autoloaders was to bump the shoulder back .003 from fired case and measure if your with in sammi specs

You only need to pay attention to SAMMI spec if you're going to shoot your reloads in multiple rifles. If you're loading for one rifle, let that rifle tell you what to do.

 

[colscar]

You only need to pay attention to SAMMI spec if you're going to shoot your reloads in multiple rifles. If you're loading for one rifle, let that rifle tell you what to do.

thought he was using once fired brass from a diffrent rifle ...oh well

 

[SporterII]

If you push an over sized expander ball into a neck and pull it out, and then push the shoulder back a little, there will be a tiny shoulder around the neck that is forward and can stand up to the firing pin push. If the firing pin can't push the case forward, it will not stretch much.

The late Randy Ketchum had a 243 that was headspace a whole thread too much. He prepped his brass this way, and never fixed the barrel.

I explained that to Greg Langelius in email in 2001.
I think I am getting old

This is something for the OP to come to understand. Excellent advice and solution.

 

[bigedp51]

Clark,
your post was over my head. What are you trying to tell me? I am sure it is great stuff but I am not following you. Look forward to hearing about this.

There are several methods for fire forming "short" cases.

1. Create a false shoulder, expand the neck of the case and then resize it until the case just fits in the chamber.
2. Seat the bullets long and jam the bullets into the rifling.

Both methods above will hold the base of the case against the bolt face and when fired the shoulder area will be blown forward to fit the chamber. With the false shoulder normal powder charges can be used, when jamming the bullets into the rifling reduced charges MUST be used.

See links below (it will move "over my head" to "eye level") ;-)

Forming 6BR Improved Cases

260 Ackley Case Forming

False Shoulder « Daily Bulletin

On my British Enfield rifles with excess headspace I slip a small thin rubber o-ring around the case to hold the case against the bolt face to fire form them.

After fire forming the case then headspaces on the shoulder and not the rim.

Proper case forming prevents case stretching in the base web area on the first firing.

 

[SporterII]

As mentioned, minimizing the stretch, worth considering. Clark's reference.

 

[bbowles]

Ok guys I think I am picking up on some of what you are saying. Haven't read enough on it yet but will get there.

If my new brass expanded from 1.444" to a normal for factory fired case of about 1.463" didn't this get my cases stretched to right? This is using a Sinclair bump guage with caliper measuring from base of head to shoulder (via bump guage).

One other thing is should I ever go past published max load charges for Sierra & Hornady "service rifle" section which usually is about a grain or more less than bolt gun section and other sources that don't distinguish?

Again, thanks for your patience.

 

[SporterII]

If you stick with Sierra data, and learn what to watch for, You will do well. Load development and safety. Get mileage from that expensive AR as well. There is a reason bolt gun and gas gun data is separate / different. They have done a lot of work for you.
Time for you to do some of that reading.
eta; read on case head separation and avoid it.

 

[colscar]

Ok guys I think I am picking up on some of what you are saying. Haven't read enough on it yet but will get there.

If my new brass expanded from 1.444" to a normal for factory fired case of about 1.463" didn't this get my cases stretched to right? This is using a Sinclair bump guage with caliper measuring from base of head to shoulder (via bump guage).

One other thing is should I ever go past published max load charges for Sierra & Hornady "service rifle" section which usually is about a grain or more less than bolt gun section and other sources that don't distinguish?

Again, thanks for your patience.

i think someone had mentioned that you could you just have to watch for pressure signs in your brass

 

[bbowles]

Just bought from Surplus Ammo 500 new unprimed Lake City 5.56 cases. Why do I need to do anything other than simply load up to form them. Then load as usual? Seems to me these methods of pushing out shoulders is not really needed? Other than making case life longer. What are your suggestions?

 

[bbowles]

Also what should I expect different than the Lapua cases I now use? Think LC should not be crimped since new.

 

[bbowles]

Not trying to say I know better cause I DONT know 1/4 of what you guys do. Just a little confused as to whether it is worth it to fireform as suggested here. I am just trying to get the .223 cases to form to my 5.56 chamber. Case life is not terribly important to me within reason. Just bought LC 5.56 new unprimed to see if can still make about as good as my Lapua cases after prepped and sorted.

Some of you say need to form this special way and others say just shoot it and let it stretch to my chamber. So confused as to what I should do and if I am losing some accuracy by just shooting it. Thanks again!

 

[FLIGHT762]

Load and shoot the new brass. Measure the fired shoulders with your Sinclair bump gauge (you said the first fired cases measured 1.463") Adjust your F/L die to bump the shoulders -.003" to 1.459"-1.460" on your gauge. That's it, you're done.

To get a more precise shoulder bump, you can slow down the speed of how fast you run the cases into / out of the die and or run the cases twice through the die (run the ram up into the die, back it down an inch or so before pulling the sizing button through the neck and run the case back up into the die). This will sometimes give a more precise shoulder bump. You can do some measuring and try it see if it helps. Some recommend when you run the case into the die, you count 2-3 seconds after the up stroke before pulling it out.

 

[bbowles]

Flight762,
Thanks for help! That's what I have been thinking. Seems to be working fine.