Gunsmithing Time to upgrade my lathe. Updated with pics!!

[ken226]

Updated with pics!! at the bottom!

I bought my first lathe used for $800.00 back in 2008 and have been using it to chamber, headspace, crown and thread barrels, true actions, and to fabricate a plethora of custom parts for boats and sandrails.

Its been a great machine but the 1.1 inch spindle bore limits me to short barrels between centers, or small diameter barrels through the headstock. Longer than about 19in, 1.1+ diameter barrels have been a no-go up until now.

It's an old 1989ish Smithy AT-300 3 in 1 machine, requires a different combo of gears for each thread pitch.

I'm gonna set the old AT-300 up to be used as a light duty mill and upgrade to a bigger lathe.

I've decided on a 12x37ish machine to replace it, the options were the grizzly G4003, The Bolton Hardware CQ9336 or the Smithy MI-1327L. They all look very similar in capabilities and in pricing as well, All three come with the "free" tool pack, consisting of a 3 jaw, 4 jaw, compound, faceplate, etc. I'm gonna guess they probably all come out of the same factory in China, just with different labels stuck on.

The Bolton:
12in x 36in Gear Head Metal Lathe With Stand Coolant System - Metal Lathes at Bolton Hardware

The Grizzly:
Grizzly.com

The Smithy:
MI-1237L Gear Drive Lathe | smithy.com

The Bolton model comes with a plethora of gears that have to be arranged to set up for different thread pitches, like my AT-300. The Grizzly and Smithy both only have a "Metric" and "inch" gear arrangements, and different pitches are accomplished with the gearbox lever settings.

I've been dealing with Smithy for years and have been very happy with their quality and customer service. Their people always seem to know the equipment, never have to transfer me to a machinist to get questions answered, etc. Its the more expensive of the three, but im leaning toward it anyway, just out of brand loyalty.

Opinions?

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

Tag for updates on what you do. I'm currently running a Grizzly but want to upgrade down the road.

 

[CS223]

Check out the Precision Matthews lathes as well New lathes in particular the PM1236

Grizzly by far has the best customer service, they have a few gunsmith specific features on their gunsmith lathes.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

i have a grizzly g4016 13x40 and dont wish i had any smaller machine. its about perfect for normal barrel work etc.

 

[Wintermute]

What's your budget...letting us know what you can spend may net you some different recommendations.

--Wintermute

 

[ken226]

What's your budget...letting us know what you can spend may net you some different recommendations.

--Wintermute

$3000.00 mas o menos. I've checked out all these machines thoroughly and looked at the one linked above as well and they all look pretty competitive with one another in both build and price.

I downloaded their operators manuals and parts manuals to educate myself further. From comparing the parts lists, the Smithy and the Grizzly are the same machine with a different electrical box and different spindle control gearbox. They both use the same bed, saddle, tailstock and leadscrew gearbox. The Bolton looks like the same bed and saddle, but different gearboxes altogether.

 

[chipsfan]

I have the 4003G which is the gunsmith's model. It includes the stand, has a spider on the outboard and better bearings. I love it. Sometimes I wish I had a larger lathe, but I had to drag it into an interior basement.

I've done a lot of barrel work, backbored shotguns, installed interchangable chokes, blueprinted actions, etc... on it and have no complaints.

Shiraz, the president, posts here and sponsors this site. He is an accomplished F-class shooter. Grizzly stocks parts and has someone answer the phone when you call.

 

[ken226]

I have the 4003G which is the gunsmith's model. It includes the stand, has a spider on the outboard and better bearings. I love it. Sometimes I wish I had a larger lathe, but I had to drag it into an interior basement.

I've done a lot of barrel work, backbored shotguns, installed interchangable chokes, blueprinted actions, etc... on it and have no complaints.

Shiraz, the president, posts here and sponsors this site. He is an accomplished F-class shooter. Grizzly stocks parts and has someone answer the phone when you call.

The Precision Mathews 12x36 also looks to be the same lathe, but with a different leadscrew gearbox as well. Looks like id be getting pretty much the same machine regardless of which I go with, just a few minor electrical/gearbox differences.

When I called Smithy to get the manual for the MI-1237L the offered to finance it at 8.9% as well!

I also looked at Harbor Freights "Central Machinery" 12x36 ( Geared Head Gap Bed Metalworking Lathe - 12" x 36" ) Is the exact same machine as the Grizzly, Bolton, Smithy and Precision Mathews.

So, I know Smithy has good customer service, and Grizzly also comes Highly recommended here at the hide, i'll probably go with one of these two! Smithys 8.9% financing is looking pretty attractive too!

I think i'll start the paperwork with Smithy on their financing, and buy theirs. If the financing falls through and I have to pay cash i'll go with the Grizzly.

 

[ugsly]

Even if they are all the same I would go with grizzly. Why? becasue you will most likley be able to get parts for a long time. I have a grizzly 4003G and a PM12x36, cant go wrong with either but parts are easier to get thru grizzly.

Casey

 

[bptactical]

With that budget in mind I would be trolling Craigslist for a used Southbend, LeBlonde, Clausing or the like.
I found my Atrump 1340 on CL for $2K in virtually new condition.

 

[ken226]

With that budget in mind I would be trolling Craigslist for a used Southbend, LeBlonde, Clausing or the like.
I found my Atrump 1340 on CL for $2K in virtually new condition.

That's the first thing I tried. I've been browsing craigslist for months looking for something in NM and AZ without any luck. I can't really take any more time for a road trip than what I could go pick up in a weekend. I'm also limited to about 1000lbs as I need to be able to move it with my Ram 1500 pickup when I move in a couple years.

I moved a 2000lb safe for a friend a few years ago and still have a square impression in the bed of my truck from that attempt. I'll be having this lathe delivered!

I'm not really concerned about parts availability with this lathe, I gathered from browsing the parts manuals for all of these lathes that If I ordered parts from Grizzly, Enco, Mathews, Smithy, etc they will fit.

For example, If I ordered gear# 58, from page 33 of the harbor freight manual, or gear #358 from page 47 of the grizzly manual, Im reasonably sure that I'd be getting the same part for my Smithy or Enco. Seems like all the Grizzly parts on that page even have the same part#s as the harbor freight, Enco and Smithy but with a different first digit. The various manuals even have the same "English as a second language" spelling and grammar typos.

part# 59 page 33 from grizzly and part# 359 page 47 from harbor freight are likely the same part.

Besides that, i've had to replace quite a few axles and gears, spindle bearings, and a few gibs for My AT-300 and Smithy has always had them in stock and shipped within 2 days.

 

[chipsfan]

I like the first three speeds on the Smitty better. 65-130-210. My 4003G is 70-200-220

That 130 is nice

 

[ken226]

I like the first three speeds on the Smitty better. 65-130-210. My 4003G is 70-200-220

That 130 is nice

oddly, the Bolton hardware BT1337G has the exact same manual, with the exact same parts and part numbers as the smithy MI-1237L!

Even the pic of the Bolton BT1337G on page 17 of their manual, the front of the lathe says "CZ1227G". All the pics in the Smithy manual, the front of the lathe says "CZ1227V".

A little "google fu" reveals that these lathes are all made by: Anhui Chizhou Household Machine Tool Co., Ltd, White Eagle over in WangDong. Looks like they are all pretty much the same thing!!

http://czjyjc.en.alibaba.com/productgrouplist-50386814/BENCH_LATHE.html

 

[steve123]

With that budget in mind I would be trolling Craigslist for a used Southbend, LeBlonde, Clausing or the like.
I found my Atrump 1340 on CL for $2K in virtually new condition.

A few years ago a friend found a Monarch EEE for $1500 on ebay! He did some restoration himself and bought a fancy new variable speed motor and now has the best TL lathe ever made.

I'd get the Precision Mathews of those mentioned. Years ago when I was shopping for a lathe they had the tightest tolerances.

 

[ken226]

The Smithy it is!!

They approved me for financing at 8.9% for the MI-1237L and the stand together as a package deal.

It should be shipping via a freight company in 8-10 days!

Once it arrives I'll set it up and switch my AXA toolpost from my AT-300 over yo the MI-1237L and post a quick review with some pics back here

 

[flatland1]

There's one thing about most of the Grizzly lathes that I don't care for, and that's the speeds available on the low end of the speed range. Most of 'em start out at 70rpm, then jump to 200+. When I'm threading to a bbl shoulder, I like running at 85rpm, but when I was starting out, I'd run at slower speeds. My lathes both have these speeds on the low end - 40-60-85-115-160-230; just have to wonder why Grizzly spec'd their gearboxes the way they have?

 

[ken226]

There's one thing about most of the Grizzly lathes that I don't care for, and that's the speeds available on the low end of the speed range. Most of 'em start out at 70rpm, then jump to 200+. When I'm threading to a bbl shoulder, I like running at 85rpm, but when I was starting out, I'd run at slower speeds. My lathes both have these speeds on the low end - 40-60-85-115-160-230; just have to wonder why Grizzly spec'd their gearboxes the way they have?

That was one of the more important factors I was considering. Even though the lowest speeds between the Smithy and the Grizzly aren't much different, the Smithy has a few more options.

The Grizzlys speeds are 70, 200, 220, 270, 360, 600, 800, 1000 and 1400 rpm

The Smithys speeds are 64, 130, 210, 460, 790, 940, 1300 and 1500 rpm

I like being the lowest speeds possible for threading against a shoulder. Also, with the Grizzly the 200 and 220 seems like a waste of a gear, as I could use either for pretty much the same thing. The Smithys 130 rpm option is nice, with the Grizzly I don't like the jump from 70 strait to 200.

The Grizzly does have more options in the 220-800 rpm range, but for me the lower end speeds are more important.

here are the specs for the soon to be mine Smithy:

Shipping Weight 970 lbs
Machine Weight 860 lbs
Crate Size 70" x 30" x 30"
Work Area Requirements 30" x 84"
Length 63"
Width 24"
Height 24"
Footprint 8" x 53-1/2"
Powerfeed (Z-Axis) Yes
Powerfeed (X-Axis) Yes
Threading Dial Yes

LATHE SPECIFICATIONS

Distance Between Centers 37"
Dial Calibration on Longfeed .005"
Dial Calibration on Crossfeed .002"
Dial Calibration on Tailstock .001"
Dial Calibration on Toolpost .001"
Feed Rate Z-Axis in/r .0047-0.132"
Feed Rate X-Axis in/r .0047-0.132"
Head Stock Taper MT5
Lathe Chuck Bore 1-3/4"
Lathe Chuck Diameter 6"
Lathe Chuck Max Diameter Workpiece 6"
Lathe Chuck Min Diameter Workpiece 1/8"
Lathe Chuck Mount Threaded 2-1/4"x8"
Lathe Chuck Type 3 Jaw/4 Jaw
Spindle Bore 1.47"
Spindle Speeds 64, 130, 210, 460, 790, 940, 1300, 1500
Spindle Accuracy TIR 0.0003"
Swing Over Bed 12"
Swing w/ Gap Removed 17-3/16"
Swing Over Worktable 6-1/2"
Tailstock Offset 3/8"
Tailstock Taper MT3
Tailstock Barrel travel 4.5"
Threads (Metric) 0.4 to 7mm
Threads (Inch) 4-56 TPI
Toolpost Travel 3.5"
Toolbit Size 1/2"
Z Travel (Tailstock installed) 33"
X-Axis Travel 5.5"

ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATION

AMP 9
HP 2
Motor Type AC
Phase Single
Volt 220 A/C

The listed specs say my machine will have a threaded spindle, but I called smithy and they confirmed that it will come with a camlock spindle.

 

[CS223]

I like being the lowest speeds possible for threading against a shoulder.

You can always thread upside down & backwards when you have to thread to a shoulder, that's what I do. That way you can run a higher spindle speed for a better finish.

 

[ken226]

You can always thread upside down & backwards when you have to thread to a shoulder, that's what I do. That way you can run a higher spindle speed for a better finish.

Funny you say that! My Smithy AT-300s slowest Speed setting is 150rpm. I've become very adept at threading upside down and backwards, and while rotating the chuck by hand as well! Its such a pain in the ass to move my compound over to the other side of the table, set the center height with an upside down cutter that ive been just hand turning the chuck for years.

I'm pretty amped up about getting to thread with power!!

 

[CS223]

Funny you say that! My Smithy AT-300s slowest Speed setting is 150rpm. I've become very adept at threading upside down and backwards, and while rotating the chuck by hand as well! Its such a pain in the ass to move my compound over to the other side of the table, set the center height with an upside down cutter that ive been just hand turning the chuck for years.

I'm pretty amped up about getting to thread with power!!

With a QCTP, you just leave the threading tool setup all the time, then just adjust your compound & tool post. I leave my compound set left 29.5 deg. almost all the time unless it is in the way which isn't too often. I've got a block out on the motor switch that keeps me from accidentally going forward when threading.

One note I want to add on the G0709 lathe, the protractor for the compound is deplorable, it's the one significant negative on the machine & I can't believe Grizzly sells the lathe like this. One day I'll pull the cross-slide off and stick it in the CNC machine and engrave a respectable protractor on it. In the mean time I use a precision protractor & DTI to set it which is a PITA.

 

[flatland1]

While Grizzly could definitely do a better job of designing the lathes they sell, at least they're working towards selling machines suitable for gunsmithing. Just stuck that statement in here to make it clear I'm not knocking Shiraz's company. There are other reasons to wish for a wider range of slow speeds, including chamber reaming. I typically run 115 or 160 rpm when reaming a chamber - at least the JET & Precision Matthews machines give me that choice of speeds.

BTW, my method of chambering includes using a twist drill to rough the chamber, then a small carbide boring bar to true the drilled hole. I typically bore to within .020"-.025" of the finished diameter at the shoulder for the chambering reamer to cut, so the reamer's taking a pretty light cut right up to the point where it starts cutting the shoulder. Not particularly promoting this method, just explaining it for clarity.

 

[Papagrizzly]

While Grizzly could definitely do a better job of designing the lathes they sell, at least they're working towards selling machines suitable for gunsmithing. Just stuck that statement in here to make it clear I'm not knocking Shiraz's company. There are other reasons to wish for a wider range of slow speeds, including chamber reaming. I typically run 115 or 160 rpm when reaming a chamber - at least the JET & Precision Matthews machines give me that choice of speeds.

Just so we are clear, we do offer the largest selection of lathes in the country and there are several that have slower speeds:

G9036 - 3 slowest speeds : 70, 115, 190

G0709 - 3 slowest speeds : 70, 115, 190

G0509G - 7 slowest speeds : 45, 70, 90, 108, 140, 165, 215. Used by many, many gunsmiths and shooting related companies

G0740 - Taiwan machine, slowest speeds : 50, 80, 100, 135, 160, 215. Very nice machine, but I still use the G0509G in my shop.

Certainly these are a little more than the $3K budget posted by the OP, but within the range of the Jet and PM mentioned above. Plus we have another 5 or 6, 13" and 14" swing models in South Bend that have multiple slow speeds, but you get the idea. We also have the largest parts department for lathes in the industry. In fact some companies send their customers to us for parts for machines they sell. Doesn't always work as parts are not always interchangeable.

 

[Geno C.]

Ask and you shall receive...

I dropped my clausing and destroyed it when trying to move this winter. Grizzly will most likely be getting my business when I am going to replace it.

 

[ken226]

Just so we are clear, we do offer the largest selection of lathes in the country and there are several that have slower speeds:

G9036 - 3 slowest speeds : 70, 115, 190

G0709 - 3 slowest speeds : 70, 115, 190

G0509G - 7 slowest speeds : 45, 70, 90, 108, 140, 165, 215. Used by many, many gunsmiths and shooting related companies

G0740 - Taiwan machine, slowest speeds : 50, 80, 100, 135, 160, 215. Very nice machine, but I still use the G0509G in my shop.

Certainly these are a little more than the $3K budget posted by the OP, but within the range of the Jet and PM mentioned above. Plus we have another 5 or 6, 13" and 14" swing models in South Bend that have multiple slow speeds, but you get the idea. We also have the largest parts department for lathes in the industry. In fact some companies send their customers to us for parts for machines they sell. Doesn't always work as parts are not always interchangeable.

Just to clarify, so no one misunderstands why I chose the Smithy over the Grizzly. The speed ranges, features, etc are pretty competitive amongs the various brands I was looking at. I could easily have lived with the lack of a 130rpm speed, and gaint some speeds in the midrange that the Smithy lacked, or chose another Grizzly machine that had those features, they certainly have them available. Those were all small things. Give here, gain there. The brands are close and competitive with each other.

Smithy sold me by offering to finance at 8.9 percent for 48 months. Then when I didn't bite quick enough, they offered 7.9% for 60 months. I just recently moved, changed jobs, and sent the county assessor in Whitesboro, TX a big ass check for property tax on a vacant lot I plan to retire on someday. I intended to pay cash, hadn't been thinking about financing it at all, and certainly didn't intend to call in sick to go sit in line at a bank and fill out a 9 page application.

They just helped by having a really sharp salesman (in this case a woman) who could tell I didn't want to spend the cash and offered some options.

I usually hate owing money or having outstanding loans, but that property tax bill kicked my butt! I was all set to wait a couple more months. A sharp salesman talked me into it!

 

[ken226]

When I got home from work, the crate was sitting next to the garage. The crate had a lot of damage on one end:

So, bigtime concerned I started breaking the crate apart:

when I hooked up the engine hoist the motor fell loose onto the crate, so I had to take a pic of the wire connections so I can reinstall it later, then disconnected the motor and lifted it, rolled it into the garage and set it on the stand.

All looks good, despite the crate damage! I couldn't find anything broken!!!!

It has a plastic liner covering the front panel, and a little grease under the liner causing a little discoloration. It should clean up easily enough!!

The belts are loose in the gearbox since I had to remove the motor.

The tailstock end.

Looks like it does indeed have a D1-4 camlock spindle!

 

[300sniper]

Might be just me, but I wouldn't have even opened that crate. I'd left it right there and called the shipper to come pick it up.

 

[ken226]

I did find one damaged part on further inspection.

The bracket that holds the motor to the headstock was broken, looks like ill find out how good, or not, Smithy's customer service is tomorrow!

 

[bptactical]

Might be just me, but I wouldn't have even opened that crate. I'd left it right there and called the shipper to come pick it up.

I would be livid as well. A precision machine, bounced on its spindle/gearbox end?
No way I would accept it.
I wouldn't be pushing Smithy's customer service, I would be pushing them to provide a replacement machine and then they can battle with the carrier.
Did it come with the chuck attached? If so I would be very suspicious of a bent spindle.
It dropped far enough and hard enough to snap the skid/pallet it is on.
I would never trust a machine that had bounced.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

Wow, I really hope for your sake everything is ok!!! Let us know when you know more.

 

[ken226]

Wow, I really hope for your sake everything is ok!!! Let us know when you know more.

Yea, I'm definitely bummed about the damage. I don't really wanna wait 3-4 weeks for shipping both ways so I hope everything checks out. Ill call Smithy and let them know, then check everything out this weekend. The Machine was about 1200 lbs, and looks like the pallet broke, and the headstocks weight was riding on the motor bracket for the entire trip.

I'll see what Smithy says about it when they open in a couple hours.

 

[MarinePMI]

I hope their CS was as good as Grizzy's was for me. My lathe showed that way, with the drive screw control sheared off.

Picked up the phone and explained what happened and the response was: "Box it back up, we'll have FedEx give you call to pick it up. As soon as FedEx leaves, call us with the tracking number; we'll ship another lathe while the broken one is enroute to us so you don't have to wait."

CS doesn't get much better than that IMHO...I hope you have something similar with Smithy.

 

[338RUM runner]

Have to love those cheap shipping crates and the dumb loaders that don't give a crap about it. Hold my Beer and watch me stick a fork thru it.

 

[CS223]

I think the skid my Grizzly G0709 came on must have weighted close to 300#, there was a Tip-N-Tell in place and when FedEx showed up with it, they had it strapped in place in the truck. Granted the lauan plywood around the rest of it didn't offer much protection. Warning labels all over it to call Grizzly if there was any sign of damage to the crate, where to fork it from etc..


ETA, make sure you remove all that plastic protective film off the panels, if you wait too long, it hardens, looks like hell and it's impossible to get off.

 

[ken226]

So, I was turning some metal yesterday , finally! I have an issue, maybe major, maybe minor, im not sure how to take it yet.

On my crossfeed, I feed my cutting tool in to just touching the surface of a 1.250 diameter part, reset the dial to 0, the infeed it .058in. When I measure the parts new diameter it should be 1.134in, but its not, Its new diameter is now 1.192.

So the dial is marked in .002 increments, but actually infeeds .001! Is this something that was done on purpose, so the numbers on the dial actually show the amount the part will be reduced to rather than the amount actually fed in?

Is this a good thing or bad, a feature or mistake? I can see occasions when it would be convenient, but since my other lathe infeeds exactly whats on the dial, ill have to remember that their different when switching back and forth!

I'm not sure if I should be pissed or not. Opinions?

 

[colchester]

So, I was turning some metal yesterday , finally! I have an issue, maybe major, maybe minor, im not sure how to take it yet.

On my crossfeed, I feed my cutting tool in to just touching the surface of a 1.250 diameter part, reset the dial to 0, the infeed it .058in. When I measure the parts new diameter it should be 1.134in, but its not, Its new diameter is now 1.192.

So the dial is marked in .002 increments, but actually infeeds .001! Is this something that was done on purpose, so the numbers on the dial actually show the amount the part will be reduced to rather than the amount actually fed in?

Is this a good thing or bad, a feature or mistake? I can see occasions when it would be convenient, but since my other lathe infeeds exactly whats on the dial, ill have to remember that their different when switching back and forth!

I'm not sure if I should be pissed or not. Opinions?

No reason to be pissed. You will need to adjust to the new lathe. Some lathe dials reflect the tool movement so when you advance the tool .010" it will remove .020" from the dia, of the part. Other lathes work like your new one does, the dial reflect the amount that will be removed from the dia. and reflects 1/2 of the actual tool movement. When you move the dial .010" it moves the tool .005" but removes .010" from the dia.

 

[300sniper]

So, I was turning some metal yesterday , finally! I have an issue, maybe major, maybe minor, im not sure how to take it yet.

On my crossfeed, I feed my cutting tool in to just touching the surface of a 1.250 diameter part, reset the dial to 0, the infeed it .058in. When I measure the parts new diameter it should be 1.134in, but its not, Its new diameter is now 1.192.

So the dial is marked in .002 increments, but actually infeeds .001! Is this something that was done on purpose, so the numbers on the dial actually show the amount the part will be reduced to rather than the amount actually fed in?

Is this a good thing or bad, a feature or mistake? I can see occasions when it would be convenient, but since my other lathe infeeds exactly whats on the dial, ill have to remember that their different when switching back and forth!

I'm not sure if I should be pissed or not. Opinions?

Many manual lathes have the cross feed increments as diameter. The compound increments are most likely actual movement.