Sizing Problems: My first attempt

[earthquake]

So I finally got around to start down the road of reloading last night. I have my bump gauge, calipers, and Redding FL s-bushing die. I set it up and ran a piece of brass through to check where it was set. I am trying to bump my shoulders back 0.002" for the first run. (I've heard this is a good start)

I got a few to do that, but then I'll run a couple through and there will be no change, 0! Some will be bumped 0.020"! Kind of all over the place. Some end up longer! I thought maybe I have crappy calipers, but they always return to zero, and measure pretty consistently between pieces of brass and depth meausurements on bullets when using my insert to measure ogive.

So I've ruined many pieces of brass and want to figure this out. I also am having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to change the depth of the die...there are no markings. I just turn it in or out a bit each time and nothing seems to work. Some pieces are bumped right, some are not. Also, when I try to remove the die after a few runs, it is a bitch to get out. I have to use channel locks to loosen it, even though I only hand-tightened it into the press. Is the die somehow becoming misaligned with the press? Is it the stroke that is not correct? Pretty frustrated here, and this shouldn't be that hard. I've read everything that came with the dies and press, two reloading manuals and have watched videos on youtube...

Finally, I tried the Hornady One-shot spray lube and that stuff sucks. It sounded like the die was being ripped apart when I ran brass up into the die and almost got stuck every time I removed them. I resprayed them a lot and it seemed to work better, but after about the 10th piece, they got really hard to go in and out again. Does this stuff evaporate? It seems like the cream type lube that came with my Lee press works better, but it's a pain to apply one piece at a time. Is that just how it goes?

My brass is about 1.497" (+/-0.001") to the shoulder datum, and I"m trying to get them to 1.495", which is my 0.002" bump. How critical is this bump? I'm resizing Hornady brass that has been once-fired in my rifle. I'll keep at it, but would like some advice as to what I may be doing wrong here. Thanks.

 

[buffybuster]

What press are you using?

You might be getting press deflection.

Use Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

 

[milo 2.0]

First off, you haven't ruined anything yet. The oversized brass will take less firings than brass done right. You just have to get them to fire, seat long.
2nd, did you try to feed fired cases into the rifle the came from? Did they actually need bumping? Sometimes you can get up to 4-5 firings before a bump is needed. Make sure the cases are well lubed.

Did you replace the sizer ball with the black pin holder? The expander ball is what stretches brass.

 

[earthquake]

Lee press, with Lee sizing lube. I just went down again and tried it again...here's what happened.

Piece 1 = 1.497", put in press, no change, turn die a bit more, no change, turn again, 0.001" bump, turn again, no change, turn same amount again, bomped 0.011"!!

Grab another piece of brass, measure 1.497"...do NOT touch die from previous attempt, run it in, NO change in length! WTF?!?

Without moving die, it bumps one 0.011", and doesn't bomp the ither at all.

 

[earthquake]

Forgot to add, i do still have the expander ball on. Some of my case mouths are dinged/dented. I'll check to see if i need to bump any...probably wasting my time, but it'd be nice to have this figured out for when i do.

 

[MTETM]

Couple of suggestions,
Make sure your brass and dies are warm when using spray lube. It works great, but you need to let it dry. I put brass in a plastic jar or bad..spray lube in...Shake and wait 5.

Press and in-consistency... Find a used RCBS Jr., rock chucker or similar Redding, you won't have the issues.

The brass you have resized will be fine... Load it and drive on.

You are doing the rest correctly

Lee press, with Lee sizing lube. I just went down again and tried it again...here's what happened.

Piece 1 = 1.497", put in press, no change, turn die a bit more, no change, turn again, 0.001" bump, turn again, no change, turn same amount again, bomped 0.011"!!

Grab another piece of brass, measure 1.497"...do NOT touch die from previous attempt, run it in, NO change in length! WTF?!?

Without moving die, it bumps one 0.011", and doesn't bomp the ither at all.

 

[KelsonAK]

amen to ditching the one shot. Imperial and not a lot. Don't like that your die is getting jammed up in the press. Those should be good dies.
Be sure your expander/decapper is adjusted properly - if I'm sizing the neck at the same time I'm bumping the shoulder, it seems that the button should just barely clear the neck on the up stroke - you don't want it bottoming out on the web of the case to be sure, that causes all kinds of hell. Made that mistake when I was just starting...
Size a couple cases WITHOUT the expander ball in and without the lock ring locked down - see what you get for bump. I size and expand in two separate steps - it does give me more consistent bump that way. No locking ring will let the die float a bit - but if you apply the same pressure to the stroke each time, that little bit of float is a good thing. That is one of the reasons I like a rubber o-ring between the lock ring and the press. Before I started using expander mandrels I used one die without the button and then did a partial stroke (neck didn't enter the part of the sizer that touches the neck, no additional shoulder bump kind of setup) with the button in to get the same effect. I'm a cheap bastard sometimes. That wasn't the perfect way to do it, but did turn out slightly better results until I went and purchased an expander. Heck - I even used a lee collet die as an expander for a while. That worked most of the time
Just size one headstamp of brass - comparing the bump of brand x vs brand y with a particular setting 'can' give you different results, though I haven't seen a .002 variation myself, and certainly not a .020 as you mentioned you are seeing.
If you aren't doing so already, put a 'measured pause' in at the top of the stroke - make it close to the same each time. I do a 'three count' but doesn't have to be that for sure - just the same each time. Also same stroke velocity, up and down. Even, measured, consistent.
Be sure your shell holder is clean. I've had bits of crap in mine that can affect the sizing from one case to the next. Generally not a huge amount there - but... clean your die also as well as your measuring tools. Little bits of brass and primer can attach to lube and before you know it you have a piece of grit somewhere it shouldn't be screwing with your measurements.

 

[milo 2.0]

Forgot to add, i do still have the expander ball on. Some of my case mouths are dinged/dented. I'll check to see if i need to bump any...probably wasting my time, but it'd be nice to have this figured out for when i do.

I seem to remember you saying you have a ton of spent brass. I run about 60% of my brass back through my gun, to see if it feeds. Pick the 10 most unruly cases that wont let your bolt close, get them to cycle, by bumping minimum, then the bulk of the rest of the brass will feed w/o a bump.

You have a bunch of reloaders around you, seek help, 3 hours with a known loader will relieve your grief ten fold.

 

[Deadshot2]

One Shot is a peculiar lube. It causes cases to stick if you don't let it dry. Let it dry and it works like a dream. Go figure.

The Lee Lube is fine. Water soluble and easy to remove with a quick "shalker bath" using a big sock, a basin filled with hot water, and some patience while drying.

The biggest thing in getting uniform shoulder bumps is to make sure your case is going into the die the same amount every time. Some presses have more flex than others so a case that needs more force will bump less than another.

A couple of ways to solve this issue is to anneal your cases before sizing. A Bernz propane/butane torch, a thick walled deep socket, and adapter so you can chuck it in a cordless drill, and you have an annealing machine. There are a bazillion YouTube videos on how to so I won't wast bandwidth here explaining how. Annealed cases will "form" more consistently than those that have a variety of work hardening levels.

Next way is to set your die so it's tight against the shell holder when you have run your toughest case into the die. Measure the "bump". If, for example, it's .010" too much bump, then take a piece of .010" shim stock, cut a round hole your case will fit through in it. After you have placed your case in the shell holder, place the shim around the case and down against the shell holder. Then size your case and you'll find that the amount of bump has just been reduced by .010".

There are pre-made shim sets like this sold by companies like Sinclair as well as other precision loading supply sites.

You are no longer relying on the press itself to maintain a uniform distance from die to ram. You've forced all yield out of the equation and now the die/shim/shell holder dimensions are consistent from case to case sizing.

BTW, this same principle works for getting uniform OAL's when seating. Just use a cut washer there and set your seating depth with the die firmly against the washer on top of the shell holder.

 

[mtrmn]

I hate 1 shot lube, but it can be used. From your description you may not be allowing it to dry long enough, plus not covering the cases uniformly.

I have not been successful in getting good results unless I lock the die down after every adjustment.

EDIT: Deadshot2 gave you the correct answer while I was typing......

 

[earthquake]

Coupla things to add.

1. I sprayed the lube up into the die like it said to on the can's directions...that might have been poor advice on their part, no?
2. The entire press flexes on my bench. While I have it mounted through 3/4" plywood and a 2x4 underneath and between two 4x4's that are only 4" apart, it seems solid. The entire press flexes, so it shouldn't be a problem. If part was flexing, while another part wasn't, I could see an alignment problem.
3. I forgot about the o-ring, but did read about doing this. I'll try again w/o the lock ring, then run out and find an o-ring.
4. All my brass is pretty consistent in length, ~1.497" +/- 0.001", so I'm going to see if I can get away w/o bumping right now. In that case, how do I know if the press is set up right? Presses squeeze the sides/cylinder to reshape it, shorten the shoulder (if set for it) and reform the neck dings. If I set it long so it doesn't touch the shoulder, and remove the expander ball, will they be sized properly?
5. What I'm not solid on is, if this brass is fire-formed to my chamber, why am I resizing it at all? I've got a .294 neck bushing in to start with. My necks are .295 once fired.

Yes, I have a LOT of brass....probably 500+ pieces to work with right now.

So, for round #2 I will:

1. Check fit in my chamber, cleaned/polished brass.
2. Remove expander ball.
3. Remove lock ring.
4. Run some again.
4.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Which lee press are you using?? you sure seem to have some flexy flying going on.

If you are into lee, get a classic cast, shouldn't get much flex out of that. Otherwise, I highly recommend a Rockchucker or Redding single stage.

You really shouldn't have to be going through all this bullcrap to bump a shoulder back a couple thou,,,

Oh yeah, get some Imperial wax.

 

[earthquake]

Which lee press are you using?? you sure seem to have some flexy flying going on.

If you are into lee, get a classic cast, shouldn't get much flex out of that. Otherwise, I highly recommend a Rockchucker or Redding single stage.

You really shouldn't have to be going through all this bullcrap to bump a shoulder back a couple thou,,,

Oh yeah, get some Imperial wax.

Thanks, it's a Lee challenger breech lock kit. The press itself isn't flexing, the entire thing flexes on my bench, or I should say, the bench surface flexes slightly. I probably need to sandwich some steel plate over the plywood. I'm beginning to think it's my stroke and technique, or lack thereof, which is affecting it.

 

[buffybuster]

Thanks, it's a Lee challenger breech lock kit. The press itself isn't flexing, the entire thing flexes on my bench, or I should say, the bench surface flexes slightly. I probably need to sandwich some steel plate over the plywood. I'm beginning to think it's my stroke and technique, or lack thereof, which is affecting it.

Your bench is not rigid enough. The flexing of your bench is allowing uneven pressure on the press. Also the Challenger press is Aluminum and probably flexing a bit. Mount the press on a rigid bench and use Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

 

[milo 2.0]

Thanks, it's a Lee challenger breech lock kit. The press itself isn't flexing, the entire thing flexes on my bench, or I should say, the bench surface flexes slightly. I probably need to sandwich some steel plate over the plywood. I'm beginning to think it's my stroke and technique, or lack thereof, which is affecting it.

All presses flex to some degree, your aluminum press may flex less than a cast! Mount the press directly on top of the right leg. Did you frame the table top? A double layer of top board helps too. MDF board is twice as rigid as plywood.

 

[earthquake]

OK, so I went back down, adjusted my die. Since my brass was almost all 1.497", I set it to size at 1.495" since that's the 0.002" bump. I re-lubed my brass that was still a bit long, and 24 more pieces with the Hornady spray. I then flipped them over in the charging trays and sprayed the bottoms (I think that was an overlooked step on my first attempt). I let them dry in front of a fan. I then ran them back through, and measured each one before to confirm >1.495" and then immediately after. I meticulously checked the stop of each stroke and applied as even pressure to each as I could. I got 35/50 to the 1.495" and about 10 ended up at about 1.496". I ran them all (the 24 unsized from before ones) with the expander ball and while some did end up at the wanted 1.495", some did not and were still long. I then removed the expander ball and reran the long ones, and wa-la! They are all at 1.495"

In a nutshell what I learned is:

1. I need to run the press stroke s-l-o-w-l-y.
2. Wait for the one shot to dry.
3. Run them twice, once with the expander, once without if still long.
4. Attempt to remedy flexing in my press/bench.

I should have mentioned from the start that all my brass was already deprimed in a decapping die. I wasn't sure where/how to set the expander ball, so I set it up/in as far as it will go, so there's no chance it will bottom out on my cases.

The Lee case lube works really well, but is tedious to apply. I've been told in pm that I can spread it on one of those roll-pads and it may speed up the process some. They go in/out easily with this stuff, whereas I still get some chatter with the Hornady spray.

Thanks for all the advice/guidance guys, it has helped!

*Edit to add: @milo2.0, there was not really much noticeable difference between the fire-formed un-sized (1.497") brass and the re-sized bumped (1.495") brass in my rifle's chamber. So I probably didn't need to bump. Thanks for the help!

 

[Gnzrme]

10+ for getting rid of the Hornady OneShot. You use less of the Imperial Sizing Wax, it lasts longer and it's cheaper...

 

[witchhunter]

You have a 200 dollar die in a 20 dollar press. Use quality to make quality. You should not need to use the expander ball in an s die. measure your necks in a fired case and adjust the bushing size to get your desired neck tension. Trying to neck down too much will show erratic results. Try sizing slower and smoother. Don't get hung up on bumping shoulders if your brass still fits the chamber....

 

[2ndamendfan]

The Lee case lube works really well, but is tedious to apply. I've been told in pm that I can spread it on one of those roll-pads and it may speed up the process some. They go in/out easily with this stuff, whereas I still get some chatter with the Hornady spray.

You can mix one tube of Lee Lube with 16oz if Rubbing alcohol ( 91% evaporates the fastest) use in a spray bottle. Put a few (100 or more) cases in a big ziplock bag, spray 4 or 5 sprays in bag, zip bag shut and toss/shake/mix, open bag and allow to dry.

 

[2ndamendfan]

You have a 200 dollar die in a 20 dollar press. Use quality to make quality. You should not need to use the expander ball in an s die. measure your necks in a fired case and adjust the bushing size to get your desired neck tension. Trying to neck down too much will show erratic results. Try sizing slower and smoother. Don't get hung up on bumping shoulders if your brass still fits the chamber....

Price should never be you first indication of quality ( although I would concede they can go hand in hand) watch this, it has been mine and a few others experience also.

Comparison of the Lee Collet neck die and the Hornady neck die - YouTube

 

[BIPMaster]

I might be talking out of my ass here, but could the problem be the Hornady lube being sticky and causing the expander ball to "grab" on the neck while on the up-stroke and pulling the shoulder back up?

 

[Gnzrme]

Does anybody here lube their cases like that?

 

[oldfatguy]

The inside of the neck needs lube if using the expander ball. That might well be part of the problem.

OFG

 

[2ndamendfan]

Does anybody here lube their cases like that?

Like what? This?

Reloading Case Lube - how to make it yourself CHEAP! - YouTube

Lee lube is mostly lanolin. do a little research and you will find this to be quite popular.

 

[Deadshot2]

The inside of the neck needs lube if using the expander ball. That might well be part of the problem.

OFG

My experience has been that lack of lube only makes the expander ball chatter/squeal but you don't usually get enough "pull" to cause the shoulder to pop out again. The shoulder "bump" is measured closer to the case wall than neck and that portion of the shoulder takes a lot of pressure to move.

Some die makers offer a carbide expander ball option (Redding for example) and the carbide balls don't really need lube to prevent the squeak like the steel ones do.

 

[Deadshot2]

I might be talking out of my ass here, but could the problem be the Hornady lube being sticky and causing the expander ball to "grab" on the neck while on the up-stroke and pulling the shoulder back up?

Don't think you're an "anal orator", but the Hornady Lube isn't really sticky. People don't apply it properly or let it dry as instructed when they have problems.

See my other post on the likelihood of a shoulder being pulled back by the expander ball. COULD it happen, perhaps it has. DOES it happen all that often? Not really.