Is it worth it? What should I know to make the decision. Hoping to use the Berger 140 grain.
- Thread starter VaRandy
- Start date
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milo 2.0
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I can't speak for the 260 versions, but I'll never run an improved case again, especially in a 6.5 where there is something else out there that will mimic any gains you make. Say you are going run 300 pieces of brass in your cycle, well your first 300 rds are wasting the most accurate rounds fired fire forming the brass.
Improving a case means straightening out the case, loose the taper, so when sizing any built up lube in your die rides up the shoulder and then you're dimpling cases.
Yes this is worst case scenario's, and you can see I'm not into it. PIA
Improving a case means straightening out the case, loose the taper, so when sizing any built up lube in your die rides up the shoulder and then you're dimpling cases.
Yes this is worst case scenario's, and you can see I'm not into it. PIA
I am already quite happy with improved cases but want an opinion on the 260 specifically. I resize cases with quick powder and NO projectiles and the time to do so is insignificant over the life of a well prepared case. In an ideal world I could get 3100 fps with the 140 with maybe a 26 inch barrel. BC is crazy as is wind doping ability,
I considered having my rifle chambered for 260 improved, but eventually went with the plain 260 for the following reasons:
1. No need to fire form to make cases.
2. Ammo more commonly available than a wildcat in an emergency.
3. Improved cases would only give me maybe 200 yards more distance before the bullet goes transonic. As I very rarely shoot past 1500 yards, the extra distance isn't really necessary.
4. Slightly longer barrel life.
5. Tapered cases feed more smoothly.
6. The so very slight advantage in bucking wind isn't relevant. Until I am good enough reading and doping wind that I can do better than the standard 260 load, I won't benefit as much from the better bucking ability as I would from learning to better handle the wind bucking ability of what I already have.
In the 3.5 years since making my choice, I have never come to regret my decision.
1. No need to fire form to make cases.
2. Ammo more commonly available than a wildcat in an emergency.
3. Improved cases would only give me maybe 200 yards more distance before the bullet goes transonic. As I very rarely shoot past 1500 yards, the extra distance isn't really necessary.
4. Slightly longer barrel life.
5. Tapered cases feed more smoothly.
6. The so very slight advantage in bucking wind isn't relevant. Until I am good enough reading and doping wind that I can do better than the standard 260 load, I won't benefit as much from the better bucking ability as I would from learning to better handle the wind bucking ability of what I already have.
In the 3.5 years since making my choice, I have never come to regret my decision.
Unknown, thanx for your reply.I am a little shocked you can shoot to 1500 now transonic. High elevation?
I am new to considering the 260 and entering practical/tactical shooting but have a LONG range background (albeit, bench!)
i want to make sure I can throw the 140 Berger to 1300 but 1500 sounds lot better. Will the 200-250 fps I pick up with improved and maybe a 26 inch barrel make the difference, I love the BC on the 140 Berger and have had great experiences with them at 6 mm long-range. I have been throwing a 105 Berger at 3300 with a 7.5 x 55 Lapua case and a Lilja 3 land barrel.
Would love to know what groups you have accomplished, speeds, powder, other helpful input. I will be using Lapua 243 cases if I can find them.
I am new to considering the 260 and entering practical/tactical shooting but have a LONG range background (albeit, bench!)
i want to make sure I can throw the 140 Berger to 1300 but 1500 sounds lot better. Will the 200-250 fps I pick up with improved and maybe a 26 inch barrel make the difference, I love the BC on the 140 Berger and have had great experiences with them at 6 mm long-range. I have been throwing a 105 Berger at 3300 with a 7.5 x 55 Lapua case and a Lilja 3 land barrel.
Would love to know what groups you have accomplished, speeds, powder, other helpful input. I will be using Lapua 243 cases if I can find them.
I don't know if you've seen this article 260 Ackley Case Forming but it seems velocity improvements over the 260 Rem are on the order of 100-120 FPS, not 200-250 FPS. Hardly worth the effort, when a 6.5/284 will get you at least 250 FPS over the regular 260 Rem.....
Bob is correct.
I only got 2900 fps with 140's and a 26" barrel back when I had my 260AI. Sure I could of pushed velocities higher but case and barrel life is then cut in half. Then there's all the fireforming to do.
Next I tried 6.5-284. 3000 fps with 140's and got horrible barrel life, 1200 rounds. Might have been because I was using H-4350. A acquaintance slowed his 6.5-284 to the high 2700's with 140's. It was about done at 2800 rounds.
Trying 6.5 SAUM now, just a medium load, hopefully I'll get 2000 rounds out of it.
6.5x47L is a efficient cartridge. If I were to build a 6.5 to use in AI 10 round mags I'd choose it and run medium loads with 123's in the low 2800's. The recoil is mild at that speed with only 37-38 grains of Varget and your looking at 3000+ barrel life. The brass life will be measured in years not months too.
I only got 2900 fps with 140's and a 26" barrel back when I had my 260AI. Sure I could of pushed velocities higher but case and barrel life is then cut in half. Then there's all the fireforming to do.
Next I tried 6.5-284. 3000 fps with 140's and got horrible barrel life, 1200 rounds. Might have been because I was using H-4350. A acquaintance slowed his 6.5-284 to the high 2700's with 140's. It was about done at 2800 rounds.
Trying 6.5 SAUM now, just a medium load, hopefully I'll get 2000 rounds out of it.
6.5x47L is a efficient cartridge. If I were to build a 6.5 to use in AI 10 round mags I'd choose it and run medium loads with 123's in the low 2800's. The recoil is mild at that speed with only 37-38 grains of Varget and your looking at 3000+ barrel life. The brass life will be measured in years not months too.
Steve, your reply was most helpful. Like always, I have started moderate and moved up, 100 fps here, etc. I want something with low recoil since most tactical practical is under 880 and good barrel life. I think if I call it 1200 yard capable and settle for 2900 with 140s with the AI work done I will be ok. Similarily I can go down to 123's and be even safer.
I don't want the weight, recoil, or blast of a 6.5/284 off the ground.
Now to pay strict attention to what powders to start with. I need to pick the bullet weight tomorrow and call in the barrel order for this project.
I don't want the weight, recoil, or blast of a 6.5/284 off the ground.
Now to pay strict attention to what powders to start with. I need to pick the bullet weight tomorrow and call in the barrel order for this project.
VaRandy,
I'm using a 27 inch Obermeyer 5R barrel in a Defiance Machine action, having an RWS brake on the end. Winchester 7mm-08 cases necked down to 6.5mm, CCI-BR2 primers, 140 Sierra MK at 2888 FPS using 43.5 grains of H4350 (IIRC, I think that is the charge, but the velocity I'm sure of as I entered it into my Exbal system after chrono'ing the load. H4250 is the only powder I have ever tried in this rifle. The rifle now has about 1000-1200 rounds through it. I could give the exact count if I looked in the log book, but it is in another room.
Altitude 220
Temp 40F
Humidity 50%
Pressure 29.29
At 1500 yards, the exbal system says my velocity os 1022 fps requiring 65 MOA elevation.
I'm not a good bench group shooter, but the groups run between .25 and .75 MOA, most often around .5 MOA. However I won't claim anything other than .75 because I know the rifle will at least do that...usually quite a bit better. If I use the 144 grain Lapua bullet with a BC of 635 claimed (actual is closer to .610) the bullet carries even better.
I so rarely shoot 1500 yards though, I'm happy with the cheaper Sierra bullet reaching 1500.
I'm using a 27 inch Obermeyer 5R barrel in a Defiance Machine action, having an RWS brake on the end. Winchester 7mm-08 cases necked down to 6.5mm, CCI-BR2 primers, 140 Sierra MK at 2888 FPS using 43.5 grains of H4350 (IIRC, I think that is the charge, but the velocity I'm sure of as I entered it into my Exbal system after chrono'ing the load. H4250 is the only powder I have ever tried in this rifle. The rifle now has about 1000-1200 rounds through it. I could give the exact count if I looked in the log book, but it is in another room.
Altitude 220
Temp 40F
Humidity 50%
Pressure 29.29
At 1500 yards, the exbal system says my velocity os 1022 fps requiring 65 MOA elevation.
I'm not a good bench group shooter, but the groups run between .25 and .75 MOA, most often around .5 MOA. However I won't claim anything other than .75 because I know the rifle will at least do that...usually quite a bit better. If I use the 144 grain Lapua bullet with a BC of 635 claimed (actual is closer to .610) the bullet carries even better.
I so rarely shoot 1500 yards though, I'm happy with the cheaper Sierra bullet reaching 1500.
Varandy, I can see no significant gains in a 260ai over a standard 260 for a practical/ tactical rifle. As stated most targets I have encountered in matches are less than 900, very few are past that. I have a pair of 260', approximately 4000 rounds before a set back and she continues to shoot excellent. Running 140 amaxs at 2850 with 43.1 grains of H4350, this could be considered a fairly light powder charge but the load has accuracy and gets the job done at matches if I do my part. It seems that the trend is more towards the heavier bullet in 260 match loads, I see very few shooters at matches using 123's of any brand. The standard 260 provides the shooter with an excellent all round cartridge, excellent barrel and brass life, excellent down range performance, my loads are so low recoiling that I have never felt the need for a brake, I'm able to load the bipod enough to stay on target for follow up shots. I have experimented with other powders in the hopes of achieving more velocity with accuracy downrange, but I keep coming back to my standard load that works.
No one could expect more quality help than I have received. can now order my components.
thanx to all
thanx to all
Another option is the .260Rem Imp. 30. Should have mine chambered up in another month or so. Offers the nearly the same (or same) performance as the AI, better shoulder angle, and no traditional fire forming. Just load a .260 case, shoot, and your fire formed, with little to no decrease in accuracy during the fire forming process. Now that's what I have read, and heard from others, but I won't be able to personally confirm for about a month. Just a thought.
VaRandy I just picked up your thread and read the posts so far. I have extensive first hand experience with the 260 imp but limited with the std 260. Simply put I love the 260 imp. I live in New Zealand and use mine mostly for long range hunting and shooting steel. When I built the rifle up my objective was to shoot high BC 140gn projectiles accurately at 2950 fps. Frankly this is not possible with the std 260.
I have settled on the 140 berger vlds with VVn560 providing the optimum horsepower and consistency. I regularly and cleanly taken goats to 800yds and have taken fallow and red deer to 700 yds. In my opinion the wind is the enemy at distance and you want inherent accuracy plus high BC and velocity to beat it. The 260 imp provides this.
I am some 1400 rounds down on my barrel and have recently increased COAL by 40 thou. Accuracy is still running .4 moa if I do my thing.
I do not fireform with projectiles but use the cream of wheat method. Whilst this is a bit of messing about, a big unmentioned advantage of the improved case is lack of growth and consequent trimming. This makes reloading a breeze as I only ever neck size once the case is formed.
I could go on ...if you would like to know more please let me know.
Brian
I have settled on the 140 berger vlds with VVn560 providing the optimum horsepower and consistency. I regularly and cleanly taken goats to 800yds and have taken fallow and red deer to 700 yds. In my opinion the wind is the enemy at distance and you want inherent accuracy plus high BC and velocity to beat it. The 260 imp provides this.
I am some 1400 rounds down on my barrel and have recently increased COAL by 40 thou. Accuracy is still running .4 moa if I do my thing.
I do not fireform with projectiles but use the cream of wheat method. Whilst this is a bit of messing about, a big unmentioned advantage of the improved case is lack of growth and consequent trimming. This makes reloading a breeze as I only ever neck size once the case is formed.
I could go on ...if you would like to know more please let me know.
Brian
