I am looking for an optic to go on an AX308MC and these two scopes are on the short list. The Mark 8 has 3.5 on the low end and the BEAST has 5; how much of a real world difference is that? The Beast has the H-59 vs the H-58 on the Mark 8, so that is a plus for me. How does the Illumination perform on both? Is the glass about the same or favored one way? I have seen the differences of the turrets online, but have not had them in my hand so any input from someone who has had hands on with them would be awesome.
Rifle Scopes Nightforce BEAST vs Leupold Mark 8
- Thread starter alman1531
- Start date
Does the beast exist yet? Only a chosen few have actually seen one.
You're asking about the BEAST which is in extremely limited hands (mil/mil version not shipped yet to dealers, MOA rare too) versus the Mark 8 that is ungodly over-priced, even with MIL/LEO pricing that just went up for 2014, so very few have them as well. You won't get too many first hand responses at all.
What purpose is the optics for? What are your typical distances you shoot? How often do you dial all the way down to 5x when shooting, much less below that?
What purpose is the optics for? What are your typical distances you shoot? How often do you dial all the way down to 5x when shooting, much less below that?
Handled the beast today at a show and was impressed. The glass was amazing. Looked sized right. Didn't feel overly heavy on the display stock.
I have dialed to low end on many scopes many times. Its there for a reason. NV makes the low end even more valuable at times.
I've been waiting "patiently" for the BEAST for about 15 months now...There are none in the wild yet as far as I know. Apparently, only a select group of individuals have pre-release versions and they seem to be keeping mum about what they know except for the little bit Frank has shared. I'm hoping that NF surprises us and is able to magically manufacture these at lightning pace, otherwise I'm just afraid we will all be dissappointed for another year as they trickle out into the the hands of the general public. I really want one but I don't have any real expectation I'll be able to get one in my hands this year.
So do I under certain circumstances, hence my question for the OP on how he intends to employ the optic. It makes a difference in giving someone a decent informed recommendation or taking stabs in the dark. But the vast majority of shooters will not have a need to split hairs between 3.5x and 5x on the bottom end.
I will be using this rifle for target shooting and in competition. Mainly practical rifle competition as uposed to F-class competition. The majority of target shooting will be within 600 yards. There is a range that goes to 1000 yards; if I can find a spot that allows longer distances, than it will be even further. 1500 yards in Colorado is possible with the .260 Rem. I do qualify for Leo/Mil pricing for both Nightforce and Leupold. How often in precision rifle competition does the below 5x come into play? I have also looked at the Mark 6 3-18x44; so another question is how much is 18x-25x used?
I've been using a Mk8 for a little over a year and I have a friend that's had a beast on order for the same timeframe......I've heard some preliminary reviews that NF is having some issues getting things "right" with the beast.......if it were me I'd move on to something that's available.
As the for Mk8, I have found it very reliable and it works extremely well. The zoom range covers everything I do, i shoot comp's as we'll and most of the time I find my power ring on about 16x but the 25x is nice when punching paper. My only complaint is the MTC feature on the dial....it's hard to dial 4.9 or 5.1 MIL's but it can be done.
I'm not really a fan of the Horus reticles, if Leupold would offer a TMR I'd add another Mk 8 to my safe in a hurry.....
As the for Mk8, I have found it very reliable and it works extremely well. The zoom range covers everything I do, i shoot comp's as we'll and most of the time I find my power ring on about 16x but the 25x is nice when punching paper. My only complaint is the MTC feature on the dial....it's hard to dial 4.9 or 5.1 MIL's but it can be done.
I'm not really a fan of the Horus reticles, if Leupold would offer a TMR I'd add another Mk 8 to my safe in a hurry.....
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You will be fine with a 5 powered optic on the low end. I hunt wth an NXS that has 5.5 on the low end and have had no trouble shooting deer as close as 10 yards with it.
The only time you might have the scope on 5x in a competition is when the match director set up a paper stage at 10 yards. Other than that you will never have it that low. I am waiting on the Beast, but I have other scopes to use right now. If you need something now you probably need to go a different route.
I am currently deployed and get back around May; so hopefully any availability issues are gone by then. From what I have read and seen on the BEAST; the display models in 2013 SHOT did not have the brake knob on the elevation turret knurled and the windage lock button was on the face of the turret away from the shooter. The changes they made on the production models is the brake knob on the elevation dial is a more aggressive grip and can be activated with gloves and the lock button on the windage dial is facing the shooter.
I decided on the Mark 8 not only 25x but 3.5. Also the fact that it's on my GAP right now!! I run Clip on night vision so the Low end mag is awesome. You also never know when a hog will jump out at 20yards so 3.5 is better than 5! Just my 2 cents!
I loved everything about my mk8 but the h58 reticle. It was just too thick on higher powers. I did my best to measure it and I came up with .2 mil!
I'd look at the new vortex razor Gen II for that price range. Looks pretty promising.
I picked up a Mk8 a few months ago to use while I waited on the BEAST and got to mount it and play with it while I was home but didn't get to shoot it. Everything I saw of it I really liked, and side by side with my old Mk4 the improvement in glass was obvious (although the 56mm compared to 40mm helps with brightness I'm sure). Side by side with another of my scopes with a H-59, the H-58 was noticeably thicker, but as I said I didn't get a chance to shoot them this time around so tough to say how much difference that makes. Now that Leupy is offering the H59 in the Mk6, I'm hoping to swing a reticle swap in the Mk8.
I have yet to hear anyone who's played with the BEAST be anything less than super impressed with it, so when/if it shows up it will be interesting to compare the 2 side by side.
I have yet to hear anyone who's played with the BEAST be anything less than super impressed with it, so when/if it shows up it will be interesting to compare the 2 side by side.
I had the option to get the MK8 at last years LE prices and chose to spend the extra cash and get the S&B PM II 5-25. Not sure why that's not on your short list in the price range you're shopping. As for the beast. If you want to wait than get it if not look at the S&B.
Also Nightforce discounts blow. I looked at the F1 a while back and it was like a 50.00 savings
Also Nightforce discounts blow. I looked at the F1 a while back and it was like a 50.00 savings
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I know where there's a mil version in the wild the windage turret lock on the beast is bad ass
Maybe we should just cancel the program since it is so weak.
No offense to you or your products (they are top notch). But comparing the Mil/LE discount to the Leupold discount is apples and oranges. And if you would really consider canceling the discount to every service man and women in the country based on the comment of one on an internet forum, than I have no problem shopping elsewhere.
Here's some photos and my opinion of the Mk8. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...opes/216577-leupold-mk8-3-5-25x56mm-porn.html
If they would have offered it in TMR at last year's Gov pricing, I'd have one now..... However, it's now in the S&B price range...and frankly, I'd rather have a S&B.
If they would have offered it in TMR at last year's Gov pricing, I'd have one now..... However, it's now in the S&B price range...and frankly, I'd rather have a S&B.
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It would be very informative to know exactly what your relationship with Night Force is.
OFG
OP:
Any reason you haven't considered the S&B PM II 5-25x56? It is THE scope that all others are compared against, and that they strive to be. It has the best glass in the class, zero stop, awesome DT knobs, focuses down to 10m, and has the best reticle choices available. You'd be hard pressed to beat it. And best of all, you can actually buy one today.
Any reason you haven't considered the S&B PM II 5-25x56? It is THE scope that all others are compared against, and that they strive to be. It has the best glass in the class, zero stop, awesome DT knobs, focuses down to 10m, and has the best reticle choices available. You'd be hard pressed to beat it. And best of all, you can actually buy one today.
I have looked at the S&B 5-25; I have read that it has been the "gold standard" in tactical long range optics. One thing that I did not like is the S&B 2 year warranty as opposed to the lifetime on Nightforce and Leupold. I know it is a S&B but I have Murphy's Law in the back of my head saying "What if". If anyone has seen the S&B side by side with any of the others mentioned, please chime in. The reticle I would like to have is the H-59 witch the BEAST and the S&B have. Lowlight had a video showing the BEAST side by side with the S&B and the BEAST was a little shorter. I have been waiting on his full review and how he compares it to a S&B. I really like the idea of the fast elevation adjustment of the BEAST and still have the fine tune with the lever. The one thing I like about the S&B is the clockwise elevation so the numbers read left-to-right.
I understand that they will back their products long after 2 years.
S&B covers stuff longer than two years. Send JerryR a PM and ask what he has to say. Mine were 30 years when I bought them, but changed shortly after. I sent one in for a fix, not a mechanical failure just something wasn't right, and they never even asked date of purchase.
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So....your right Jerry AT THE MOMENT is allowed to take care of people past the 2 year mark. BUT that does not mean in the future Big Corporate S&B might decide they don't like that and put a end to it.
well, considering one scope is availible and one is not the choice should not be difficult.
in regards to NF vs Leupolds Mil program, NF is laughable. outside of leupolds price on the mk8 3-25, leupold has a great program that one would be foolish not to take advantage of. hell vortext has a great program.
let me see. a mk6, 1-6 or 3-18, or mk4 ER/T with zero stops, locking turrets and a more forgiving eye box for less than a 6 year old NF.... no thanks NF...
in regards to NF vs Leupolds Mil program, NF is laughable. outside of leupolds price on the mk8 3-25, leupold has a great program that one would be foolish not to take advantage of. hell vortext has a great program.
let me see. a mk6, 1-6 or 3-18, or mk4 ER/T with zero stops, locking turrets and a more forgiving eye box for less than a 6 year old NF.... no thanks NF...
This is why I say and will continue to say you guys are some of the most ungrateful people on the internet.
That you'll bitch about 15% which is NOT a $50 discount by any stretch of the imagination.
As an example, a MAP on an ATACR is $2358, it retails close to $2400, and with the LE discount is $2040... so how is that not worth it ?
One day you'll all understand that many of these manufacturers are on this site, and see you bitch and cry as if they OWE you something. There is reason I don't use the power of this site to get you better deals, because you don' t appreciate it and simply care about yourself .
Leupold is huge, and works in volume, they design their model that way. No other industry player can match Leupold in volume & discounts because they are so big.
Instead you'd rather bitch about what you don't get, instead of being grateful for what you do get.
That you'll bitch about 15% which is NOT a $50 discount by any stretch of the imagination.
As an example, a MAP on an ATACR is $2358, it retails close to $2400, and with the LE discount is $2040... so how is that not worth it ?
One day you'll all understand that many of these manufacturers are on this site, and see you bitch and cry as if they OWE you something. There is reason I don't use the power of this site to get you better deals, because you don' t appreciate it and simply care about yourself .
Leupold is huge, and works in volume, they design their model that way. No other industry player can match Leupold in volume & discounts because they are so big.
Instead you'd rather bitch about what you don't get, instead of being grateful for what you do get.
I've had a S&B 5-25 and a Mk8 and I must say esp for the money that the Mk8 is everything I want. With the larger price increase by S&B I do not choose to spend more on one. Nothing against them just personnal choice. I enjoy a product that is designed and produced in the USofA and want to support those companies. I think the low end is better on the Leupy (less tunneling) and the glass is great and the eyebox is more forgiving as well. YMMV.
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I feel lucky to get a slight discount for any of the products from the vendors here. I don't even like asking for discounts on anything. Things cost what they cost. If I don't think something is worth what it's charged, then I buy something else.
Anybody that doesn't want their LE discount, I'll take it!
I was excited when my spouse finished college with criminal justice degree, but rather than taking a job as an officer, she ended up as an investigator. So no discount for me. I'd take 15% and be happy.
Look at it this way, since Leupold can afford to provide a discount so large, that begs to question how much cost is being passed on to the rest of us to cover it. Or is it clever marketing , "cuz it's what the SWAT team uses it just be best!"
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I was excited when my spouse finished college with criminal justice degree, but rather than taking a job as an officer, she ended up as an investigator. So no discount for me. I'd take 15% and be happy.
Look at it this way, since Leupold can afford to provide a discount so large, that begs to question how much cost is being passed on to the rest of us to cover it. Or is it clever marketing , "cuz it's what the SWAT team uses it just be best!"
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My choice of word in describing the discount (blows) was not the right way to express the point I was raising. I will apologize for that. What I should have said is the Leupold discount is a much higher percentage than the NF. I was recently in the market for both scopes and chose a S&B and got zero discount. That being said, I don't believe the correct response from a manufacturer is to threaten to remove a military discount because someone said something he didn't like. I do appreciate any discount that is offered to me be it 15% or 40%. Back to the point I was making, I would choose the 40% if given those options.
He didn't threaten anything, he said maybe we should remove it because it wasn't up to your standards... again, that is what you get for being an ungrateful ass.
Which is even worse because you went to a company with ZERO discount and bought a scope while pointing a finger at NF.
Leupold makes more scopes in 8 months than all the biggest European manufacturers combined do in 1 year, and that is without adding a 3rd shift.
Again, it's your ungrateful attitude that has an effect, and these guys aren;t the only ones that look at your attitude and think, "why bother".
If you don't think that "Why Bother" is not mentioned more than once...you'd be sorely mistaken.
Which is even worse because you went to a company with ZERO discount and bought a scope while pointing a finger at NF.
Leupold makes more scopes in 8 months than all the biggest European manufacturers combined do in 1 year, and that is without adding a 3rd shift.
Again, it's your ungrateful attitude that has an effect, and these guys aren;t the only ones that look at your attitude and think, "why bother".
If you don't think that "Why Bother" is not mentioned more than once...you'd be sorely mistaken.
I'm with Tyler and am happy to use anyone's LE discount that doesn't like it. Likewise, I wonder if deeper discounts are a reflection of larger margins.
I don't see how it wasn't a threat?!?!
I apologized once for my choice of words and that will be the only time I do so. If you want to get your kicks challenging my character and belittle me by calling me an "ungrateful ass" etc, feel free. This your site not mine. However I am grateful for all the discounts that companies give LE and Military. As said before they don't have to give anything, but do out of respect for the service and sacrifice that we have given. Not trying to turn this into a fight, just believe that you have misunderstood the content of my character based on one sentence.
Maybe implies a question, the fact he doesn't use a question mark doesn't make it any less of a question to be pondered by those who decry the lowly 15% they are offered.
Good try... if you want to feel threatened by it, maybe you should have chosen your outrage better and realize these companies are here and watching. They pay attention even if you don't.
Especially when you state a few seconds later how much their discount suck and that you turned around and used a company with zero discount. So it telegraphs to them, "why bother" of which I will repeat myself and tell you again, "I have heard this before from companies" ... if you want cut yourself out of a discount program, keep poking them. Now they can look at it where, People don't like 15%, they want 40% but are willing to spend even more money, like a lot more with NONE. So I will repeat, "Why Bother" if you're gonna be an ungrateful ass about it.
Good try... if you want to feel threatened by it, maybe you should have chosen your outrage better and realize these companies are here and watching. They pay attention even if you don't.
Especially when you state a few seconds later how much their discount suck and that you turned around and used a company with zero discount. So it telegraphs to them, "why bother" of which I will repeat myself and tell you again, "I have heard this before from companies" ... if you want cut yourself out of a discount program, keep poking them. Now they can look at it where, People don't like 15%, they want 40% but are willing to spend even more money, like a lot more with NONE. So I will repeat, "Why Bother" if you're gonna be an ungrateful ass about it.
I understand the point of wanting to be greatful and "accepting" someones discount if they "didnt want it" or were "ungreatful" for the % of discount large or small but it is funny that in principle those who dont qualify (by dealer terms) as LEO/Mil would jump on a discount reserved for Mil/LEO.
I dont find it much difference either if the companies are making margins elsewhere because either way they are making (X%) less then a normal sale. They are taking (X%) away from shareholders, bonuses etc. No one should have a sence of entitlement like "We deserve it" (myself not being flawless either, mind you) but damn lets all step back and take a break from this huh?
Back to NF Beast vs. Mk8....
Think the reticle choice/avalibilty would be the deciding factor here.
I dont find it much difference either if the companies are making margins elsewhere because either way they are making (X%) less then a normal sale. They are taking (X%) away from shareholders, bonuses etc. No one should have a sence of entitlement like "We deserve it" (myself not being flawless either, mind you) but damn lets all step back and take a break from this huh?
Back to NF Beast vs. Mk8....
Think the reticle choice/avalibilty would be the deciding factor here.
I am leaning more toward the BEAST because of the following reasons. H59 over the H58, I like the idea of the quick .2mil adjustments for a quick dope and if you need .1, use the lever; also how the windage turret is set up. if Lowlight comes back to this thread, perhaps he could give his opinion on the turrets and the scope overall since he has some hands on time with the BEAST. Even with both companies military discount the prices are pretty comparable. The 120 moa of adjustment over the 90 moa adjustment. There are a lot more mounting options for the 34mm tube than the 35mm tube. If there is something I am not considering that anyone would like to point out, I would like to see the second opinion.
I am using the MOA version of the BEAST, the Mil one was not ready when I got too impatient and since I knew there were MOA ones in the wild, I asked to use that to hold me over.
Initially my thinking, and I put this off a few times, that the MOA version would not be ideal for turret design, however in practice, it works 100% with zero issue.
The ease, and speed of the BEAST cannot be understated, when zeroing it on multiple rifles both, caliber and configuration I found it unnecessary for me to use the .25 Fine Tuning adjustment. I was still able to perfectly zero the scope using just the .5 MOA turret. As well when shooting the BEAST it was not necessary to always use the lever, in fact I barely used it. On paper, where you are measuring close to an "X" Ring, but on a piece of steel it was mostly unnecessary. This is nice part, the spacing between the clicks since they are wider thanks to the lever, makes it all that much more efficient. No longer was I having to concentrate on that .1 or .25MOA as the turret is wide enough not to sweat it. If you want it, throw the lever over.
If you're in the Online Training I used the BEAST for a lot of the alternate position lessons so I was constantly using it from a Tripod. Standing, Kneeling, etc, it was very forgiving and nice to get behind. I really like the look of this scope.
It's a bit shorter than a S&B 5-25x, although it weighs the same, so you have a nice 2" difference here.
Great Glass, Tons of Adjustment, with a lot of great features, Fully Illuminated Reticle, with adjustments and color change, locking windage, braked elevation, zero stop, travel... what more can you ask for... when you consider the competition, and I realize NF is very late to this party, it's a great scope for the money. Everyone else with similar features aside from a few are moving well beyond $3600 to $4200+ here you have it available for less. It's a great bridge between the scopes at are hovering around $2400 or so, and the ones that are exceeding $3600.
Sure, the wait sucks, but it's not because of a design problem, the design was finished before the Summer. Any changes were based on feedback and not because of issue. They are shipping the scopes to select groups now (Guys have said the Australia ones have arrive) and I suspect the US Pre-Order market will be shipping sooner than you think. Once the dust settles I will be moving to get my Mil / Mil version... as that is my preferred version, but the MOA has been easy to say the least.
Initially my thinking, and I put this off a few times, that the MOA version would not be ideal for turret design, however in practice, it works 100% with zero issue.
The ease, and speed of the BEAST cannot be understated, when zeroing it on multiple rifles both, caliber and configuration I found it unnecessary for me to use the .25 Fine Tuning adjustment. I was still able to perfectly zero the scope using just the .5 MOA turret. As well when shooting the BEAST it was not necessary to always use the lever, in fact I barely used it. On paper, where you are measuring close to an "X" Ring, but on a piece of steel it was mostly unnecessary. This is nice part, the spacing between the clicks since they are wider thanks to the lever, makes it all that much more efficient. No longer was I having to concentrate on that .1 or .25MOA as the turret is wide enough not to sweat it. If you want it, throw the lever over.
If you're in the Online Training I used the BEAST for a lot of the alternate position lessons so I was constantly using it from a Tripod. Standing, Kneeling, etc, it was very forgiving and nice to get behind. I really like the look of this scope.
It's a bit shorter than a S&B 5-25x, although it weighs the same, so you have a nice 2" difference here.
Great Glass, Tons of Adjustment, with a lot of great features, Fully Illuminated Reticle, with adjustments and color change, locking windage, braked elevation, zero stop, travel... what more can you ask for... when you consider the competition, and I realize NF is very late to this party, it's a great scope for the money. Everyone else with similar features aside from a few are moving well beyond $3600 to $4200+ here you have it available for less. It's a great bridge between the scopes at are hovering around $2400 or so, and the ones that are exceeding $3600.
Sure, the wait sucks, but it's not because of a design problem, the design was finished before the Summer. Any changes were based on feedback and not because of issue. They are shipping the scopes to select groups now (Guys have said the Australia ones have arrive) and I suspect the US Pre-Order market will be shipping sooner than you think. Once the dust settles I will be moving to get my Mil / Mil version... as that is my preferred version, but the MOA has been easy to say the least.
For me, reticle options with the leupold are limited to the TMR. While the TMR is ok, it's not as "useable" to me as the MIL-R. I will wait for the Beast MIL-R to be released or settle for an ATACR MIL-R if I can't help myself. I did eyeball the MK6 Leupold long and hard and love the turret design/clicks but after also eyeballing the ATACR I know the Beast will be worth the wait. Worst case scenario I'll spring for a Schmidt 5-25 H2CMR or P4F.
My thought as well, and I own a few Leupolds. I've always said they're worth it at the discounted or used prices, but not at their MAP/MSRP.
OP, what experience do you have with Horus reticles? You're wanting this scope for competitive shooting, talk a lot about the flexibility in the adjustments, yet you're wanting the H59 reticle. Sounds like you intend to dial your elevation anyhow, not using the Horus reticle for it's intent of zero dialing and strictly holding over. At a $500 upcharge, are you going to be getting your money's worth out of it? Take a gander at just how many current top level competitors are using Horus, and ask yourself why that is: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...n-rifle-gear-pros-use-new-data-published.html
If you aren't already married to that reticle, I think you might find something such as the H2CMR, MIL-R or MSR would better suit your intents and purposes. Not to mention save you $500 for more ammo, wind meter, better LRF, etc.
Very interesting and thought provoking point; I have not had hands on time with the Horus reticles. My interest in them is based on the idea behind them and the reading I have done; but again no trigger time. I am 25 and my rifle experience up to this point is hunting and target shooting up to 200 yards as well as reloading. I suppose I could use the reticle for holdovers with multiple targets at varying distances; and dial elevation when engaging one or multiple targets at a fixed distance. I am utilitarian by nature and like options to use one tool in different ways at different times. I view those pros as choosing their gear based on their many years of experience in long rang competition. I have limited experience in the long range competition and can only go by my research; I don't have the practical trigger time to decide what I like. My research led me to my interest in the Horus vision reticles. I have read that they don't work for everyone and I looked at the TREMOR 2 and that had too much going on. The thing I like about the H-59 is it is a consistent grid with no weird holdovers that correspond to a certain formula like the TREMOR 2.
That is a very interesting Chart. At first I was thrilled to see the S&B H2CMR is one of the top choices, as this is also a design that I like and use. (though I am no "top competitive shooter"). Then I wondered just how much the top shooters choices of their gear might be influenced by sponsorship.
Simply trying to help you make an informed decision is all. Trigger time behind one will tell you whether it's right or wrong for you, but for the vast majority of other precision shooters out there, they're wrong. They work well in sand boxes and other dynamic situations, but most competitions aren't minute of man shooting with nice dusty backdrops. They can help you in some situations and hinder you in others, but I've never felt hampered by shooting with a standard reticle, to include shooting a Unertl/mildot topped M40A1 out to 1000yds in the wind with zero dialing at all. After being taught to do it at Quantico I trained my platoon to do the same, and every single sniper picked it up easily. I beg to differ with anyone who says it cannot be done.
I've gone on the record before about my distaste for Horus reticles, due both to their cluttering the scope image and their pompousness in up-charges and lawsuits filed against anyone who designs anything remotely similar. My personal opinion, everyone has their own as well.
A scope like a BEAST or PMII with a standard type reticle wouldn't be difficult to sell with minimal loss if it turns out wrong for you. Horus (and associated upcharge) tend to take more of a hit resale price wise. Leupold take a serious hit in comparison to NF and S&B, who typically sell for >90% MAP pricing in very good condition. Just my observations.
If you're deployed right now, ask around some of the units there that may have a Horus or otherwise equipped scope. I'm sure those guys will let you take a gander at them, give you first hand information in their personal use, and help you make your decision.
I've gone on the record before about my distaste for Horus reticles, due both to their cluttering the scope image and their pompousness in up-charges and lawsuits filed against anyone who designs anything remotely similar. My personal opinion, everyone has their own as well.
A scope like a BEAST or PMII with a standard type reticle wouldn't be difficult to sell with minimal loss if it turns out wrong for you. Horus (and associated upcharge) tend to take more of a hit resale price wise. Leupold take a serious hit in comparison to NF and S&B, who typically sell for >90% MAP pricing in very good condition. Just my observations.
If you're deployed right now, ask around some of the units there that may have a Horus or otherwise equipped scope. I'm sure those guys will let you take a gander at them, give you first hand information in their personal use, and help you make your decision.
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