Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

[Graham]

Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

Fuck the lawyers. the only rule in a gunfight is WIN. The little shit will work itself out.

Starting a gunfight and then going to jail for twenty-five years isn't a little thing.

No one is suggesting that people take gunfighting advice from lawyers. But I keep hearing from people who never learned the legal aspects of self defense that the law and winning don't dovetail. They do.

Yet the same people don't care to learn the 'why' or the 'how', and would rather tell stories about how they did it wrong, and why what they did was really right, than learn the proper way....Probably because they are more concerned about being able to carry a gun than in the much harder aspect of learning how to use it properly.

Marksmanship; gun handling; tactics; mindset; and the law. You need to know ALL of it. The 'better to be judged by twelve' bullshit so popular on amateurcarry.com is nothing more than ignorance.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who carry a gun in the civilian world, as a professional or otherwise, haven't a clue about when to use it. Setting yourself up to be a victim after the fact, never mind advocating it to others, is neither a method nor a strategy.

 

[diverdon]

So Graham, In the past you have posted things I have interpreted as critical of Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. Where do you recommend that Hide members go for vetted competent training in the personal defensive use of the handgun?

 

[Graham]

Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

So Graham, In the past you have posted things I have interpreted as critical of Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. Where do you recommend that Hide members go for vetted competent training in the personal defensive use of the handgun?

There's nothing wrong with Mass's training. And I have not been critical of LFI. But I do question some of the things he says, and much of what other people say that he says when they either don't understand it or take it out of context.

 

[EventHorizon]

Sometimes we just can't help but trip over our own dicks. Too funny. KYPs post was very insightful in the context he meant for it to be - profile and mentality of a violent sociopath and how best to handle it from a contact avoidance and force on force. Grahams point was this - it's good to walk away alive. It's even better to do so and to go home instead of jail.

I'm grateful for both their contributions (on a historical and ongoing basis).

 

[Maggot]

Starting a gunfight and then going to jail for twenty-five years isn't a little thing.

No one is suggesting that people take gunfighting advice from lawyers. But I keep hearing from people who never learned the legal aspects of self defense that the law and winning don't dovetail. They do.

Yet the same people don't care to learn the 'why' or the 'how', and would rather tell stories about how they did it wrong, and why what they did was really right, than learn the proper way....Probably because they are more concerned about being able to carry a gun than in the much harder aspect of learning how to use it properly.

Marksmanship; gun handling; tactics; mindset; and the law. You need to know ALL of it. The 'better to be judged by twelve' bullshit so popular on amateurcarry.com is nothing more than ignorance.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who carry a gun in the civilian world, as a professional or otherwise, haven't a clue about when to use it. Setting yourself up to be a victim after the fact, never mind advocating it to others, is neither a method nor a strategy.

Smoke and mirrors. Where did I say anything about 'starting' anything? All I said was (implying that your forced into a situation you don't want to be in) 'WIN' and then sort it out. "Ignorance" is often best avoided by being quiet. Some here need to practice that.

 

[Graham]

Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

Sometimes we just can't help but trip over our own dicks. Too funny. KYPs post was very insightful in the context he meant for it to be - profile and mentality of a violent sociopath and how best to handle it from a contact avoidance and force on force. Grahams point was this - it's good to walk away alive. It's even better to do so and to go home instead of jail.

I'm grateful for both their contributions (on a historical and ongoing basis).

What I'm saying is that the world is a more complicated place than so many people who carry guns want it to be, or wish that it was.

Because if you win the gunfight and then go to jail you haven't won; you've lost.

And if you [I don't mean you, personally] don't realize that fact, then you probably don't possess the judgment to carry a gun and not fuck yourself should anything go wrong while you are carrying it.

And no amount of story-telling, or name calling, or ranting about the system, or the police, or the second amendment, is going to change that.

 

[Maggot]

What I'm saying is that the world is a more complicated place than so many people who carry guns want it to be, or wish that it was.

Because if you win the gunfight and then go to jail you haven't won; you've lost.

And if you [I don't mean you, personally] don't realize that fact, then you probably don't possess the judgment to carry a gun and not fuck yourself should anything go wrong while you are carrying it.

And no amount of story-telling, or name calling, or ranting about the system, or the police, or the second amendment, is going to change that.

Agreed.

 

[eli polite]

If your minding your own business and some one brings the fight to you.......Well there are no rules in that situation fight to win bring it to an end as fast and as efficient as possible by any means necessary. people don't play by rules OBVIOUSLY!! so if they bring there stupid to you, you better be willing to meat them with the same disregard they have for you or you are on the loosing end

 

[Graham]

If your minding your own business and some one brings the fight to you.......Well there are no rules in that situation fight to win bring it to an end as fast and as efficient as possible by any means necessary. people don't play by rules OBVIOUSLY!! so if they bring there stupid to you, you better be willing to meat them with the same disregard they have for you or you are on the loosing end

That's exactly how people end up screwing themselves and going to jail. I've seen it happen. It happens more often than one would think.

The criminal has the advantage because he doesn't care about breaking the law. Nothing new there. You have the disadvantage because your actions must remain at all times within the law. Nothing new there either.

But advocating that someone else's lack of rules justifies your disregard for same: That's the fast lane to amateurville.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

So Graham, In the past you have posted things I have interpreted as critical of Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. Where do you recommend that Hide members go for vetted competent training in the personal defensive use of the handgun?

Since you're really asking about legal + defensive training, I would submit to you that the best course of action is to seek out an expert in each. With respect to legal - its largely a local matter, right?

I have spoken to the DA / ADA / criminal attorney (that I would call) - b/c who gives a shit how they do it 1,500 miles away? Some big picture take always 1. Make sure it worth going on in on (gee, there is that exercising good judgement thing again) and 2. don't do anything that makes your counsel's job harder. As for some specifics we discussed keeping your mouth shut until you have had a chance to meet; the potential negative perception of local juries to NFA weapons; and mag dumps (I fired until the BG 'was no longer a threat' - and how fine of a line that can really become for a civi vs an LEO).

 

[375fan]

The convicted individual and his family that were at the courthouse should all be exterminated immediately. Looking/swearing at victims family show the true colors of punk and his family, they are a plague on the human race and society.

 

[dcnyli]

call me non PC, but this filth deserves a bullet and nothing more. I don't want my taxes keeping his shitstain of a life in prison, he's garbage and should be disposed of as such.

 

[Graham]

Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

The convicted individual and his family that were at the courthouse should all be exterminated immediately. Looking/swearing at victims family show the true colors of punk and his family, they are a plague on the human race and society.

I love it when people claim gun rights under a constitution but vehemently argue for the elimination of other rights guaranteed by the same constitution.

Under the rules you propose, you better hope that no one in your family ever commits a crime....

How would you feel about imposing the death penalty for parking violations?! Maybe as a means only of population control?!

 

[Phil1]

What I'm saying is that the world is a more complicated place than so many people who carry guns want it to be, or wish that it was.

Because if you win the gunfight and then go to jail you haven't won; you've lost.

And if you [I don't mean you, personally] don't realize that fact, then you probably don't possess the judgment to carry a gun and not fuck yourself should anything go wrong while you are carrying it.

And no amount of story-telling, or name calling, or ranting about the system, or the police, or the second amendment, is going to change that.

There are many on gun forums that like the idea of what is depicted in the old western movies as right and wrong, black and white. There is a shootout and the cowboy in the white hat wins. While the bad guy digests lead in the dust of main street.

Its like road rage. It takes two to dance, but whats the purpose? To teach the other driver manners, the error of his ways?

I understand that there are bad cops that have wronged people in the past but if anyone had to deal with criminals and punks on a day after day basis. Is there anyone who could maintain a "Professional" attitude towards the gangster-punk-criminal?

Some people have a base instinct to prey upon others. They tend to run in families, gangs and groups.

They should be fought, but its important to pick the fight, the battle and the war. To shape the battlefield to ensure your victory. That means not getting involved lose lose situations.

 

[Guest]

Graham,

You have insight and knowledge of law in this matter

Can you highlight a general procedure or ROE for a gun confrontation. I am in Maryland.

 

[KYpatriot]

What I'm saying is that the world is a more complicated place than so many people who carry guns want it to be, or wish that it was.

Because if you win the gunfight and then go to jail you haven't won; you've lost.

And if you [I don't mean you, personally] don't realize that fact, then you probably don't possess the judgment to carry a gun and not fuck yourself should anything go wrong while you are carrying it.

And no amount of story-telling, or name calling, or ranting about the system, or the police, or the second amendment, is going to change that.

You can be beaten by the criminal or by the law. When the law so restricts your options that you really have little choice but be a victim or go to jail, then it becomes hard to tell which is the greater evil, the hold up man or the law that enables him. Thats why we should be fighting that fight now with the lawmakers. You may call it ranting about the system or the second amendment if you want, but since we clearly recognize that the law is a threat to your future in a gunfight, I would think we all should be "ranting" and advocating to ensure that the law doesn't unnecessarily limit the legality of good self defense tactics. Defend yourself in Chicago the same way I may do legally here in KY and you are likely going to jail. Therefore, I despise their law and those lawmakers as much as the hold up man. We ought to try and change both as much as we can, and we can all start with the law now.

In the meantime, Graham's point that your government is a threat to your future in the event you have to deal with this scum means that good self defense training should include first how to defeat the immediate physical threat and second how to defeat the follow on threat from the authorities, especially if you live in a place that effectively denies you the right to live in the face of one of these threats. They may be little overlap in your options for the two threats, and in that case you have little choice but to be prepared to do what you must to live/protect those you love and face the lawyers later.

In a more general sense, as the majority of the body of law in this country continues to stray from the limits of the Constitution I predict that in many areas principled and self-disciplined men will find themselves outside the circle of law that defines what is "legal." The man with respect for the rule of law, who is standing on the principles just law is based on, did not step out of the circle, but rather corruption of the rule of law has moved the circle itself. In the interest of peace and being "law abiding" we are continually asked to move off our principles a little and step back in the circle. If we continue to have respect for "legality" rather than the principles upon which our law ought to be based then we will find we have taken so many steps we can no longer even see the principles we used to stand on, the same principles upon which our forefathers founded a country. How much should we compromise to keep in the circle? Its hard for people who want to respect our neighbors by respecting the law to answer that, but the inescapable truth is that our answers determine whether our progeny are citizens or subjects. I suggest we begin thinking through the question with all the gravity the consequences of such a question deserve.

The disconnect I have with many lawyers is that most of them are in the business of trying to jam you up for being outside the circle or debating whether or not you are in the circle, as if that is the only thing that matters. I know we need some of that, but we have a greater need of a body of lawyers that keep that circle firmly centered on those principles resulting in just law, so that good men don't have to be a criminal to do what is right. We will owe quite a debt to those lawyers if they can do it and spare us the last resort process by which the people must do it.

But what do I know, I'm just a redneck from Kentucky, trying to live peacefully according to principles as best I can, in a world that seems determined to deny me that luxury.

 

[Graham]

Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

Graham,

You have insight and knowledge of law in this matter

Can you highlight a general procedure or ROE for a gun confrontation. I am in Maryland.

I don't practice in Maryland. And I don't give legal advice on the Internet.

Whatever state you are in, you should familiarize yourself with the law of self defense (and the defense of others) in that state. Remember, self defense is a defense to what would otherwise be a crime.

Look at what the test is....and whether it's a subjective or objective test.

Have a look at the state law regarding the use of force: When is deadly force permissible? When is only non deadly force permissible?

Can you legally shoot a fleeing felon in your state?

Can someone who has committed a felony be a plaintiff in a civil court regarding injuries he received during that incident? If not, why or why not?

Have a look at the state law regarding whether, and where, there is a duty to retreat before using deadly force.

This is not a comprehensive list by any means, but if you don't know the answers to these questions you have no business carrying a gun in public.

Don't get me wrong, you have the right to carry a gun, and I fully support that right, but the reality is that the system also has the right to grind you into a fine powder when you fuck up while using that gun.

 

[Phil1]

I don't practice in Maryland. And I don't give legal advice on the Internet.

Whatever state you are in, you should familiarize yourself with the law of self defense (and the defense of others) in that state. Remember, self defense is a defense to what would otherwise be a crime.

Look at what the test is....and whether it's a subjective or objective test.

Have a look at the state law regarding the use of force: When is deadly force permissible? When is only non deadly force permissible?

Can you legally shoot a fleeing felon in your state?

Can someone who has committed a felony be a plaintiff in a civil court regarding injuries he received during that incident? If not, why or why not?

Have a look at the state law regarding whether, and where, there is a duty to retreat before using deadly force.

This is not a comprehensive list by any means, but if you don't know the answers to these questions you have no business carrying a gun in public.

Don't get me wrong, you have the right to carry a gun, and I fully support that right, but the reality is that the system also has the right to grind you into a fine powder when you fuck up while using that gun.

This should be your tag line at the bottom of your posts.
" Don't get me wrong, you have the right to carry a gun, and I fully support that right, but the reality is that the system also has the right to grind you into a fine powder when you fuck up while using that gun.

Providing quality control for post content on Sniper's Hide since 2007."

ANYBODY who fires a gun in a public setting will likely have $3-5K in legal bills.

It could be a $100k in the blink of an eye if you kill someone, even a felon.

Is it worth $100,000 to teach a punk the ultimate lesson?

Never assume the system will protect you, your rights, or your point of view.

 

[Graham]

Gutter trash 'gangsta' gets his due!

The prosecutor doesn't always charge.

We had a shooting here a few years ago at a gas station. During a verbal altercation one man grabbed the lid of a trash container and raised it up to hit the other man. Second man drew his gun and killed the first man. The station surveillance camera captured the event.

Prosecutor said: No duty to retreat when using deadly force to prevent an attack with a dangerous weapon. Good shoot. No charge.

Legal bills: $0.00

 

[KYpatriot]

Here is one example among many:

Cops: Off-duty sergeant fatally shoots teen during robbery - chicagotribune.com

I presume the off duty sergeant is legal to carry concealed off duty, at least I hope for his sake that he is. If not, or if he were a private citizen, the focus there in Cook County would likely be on why a citizen is pumping gas with an illegally carried weapon on him (as if the robbery he endured didn't speak for him). Should he break the law, carry and have a chance to increase the odds he will live as in this case, or follow the law and be at the mercy of a 16yo armed robber who may or may not want witnesses or who gets pissed when you don't carry enough money to make him happy with you as his prey? Why should this even be a question in a "free" country?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Im guessing you live in "ChIraq" as the would-be thugs call it? Any idea what would happen if it was the second case? IE if he wasnt legally allowed to carry that weapon?(After reading it that sounded a bit sarcastic, I am truly wondering what would happen if he wasnt carrying legally, what charges, and what punishments if charged, etc?


In case the examples given in this thread are not enough to convince libtards of the need for firearms in the hands of citizens: we all know how deathly afraid the dems are of offending "minority" ethnicities. Its truly entertaining to watch how nimble they can be in dancing around any racial issues whatsoever and stretching the breadth of English vocabulary to the absolute limits in their strive for political correctness and to please the likes of Al Sharpton.

Considering what month this is, and considering the lengths that libs will go to please "minority-interest groups"(more like self-interest groups, considering the money they make off things like Trayvon Martin`s death), take a look at this video. Id wager most people dont realize it, but gun-control has its roots in racism. IE: gun-control, back then, was more akin to race-control than combating violence. So when a dem says something along the lines of "NRA is nothing but old fat racist white guys which reflects who the rest of the gun-owners are", lead them to this video. Who knows, maybe if the libs realized that the Black Panthers of all groups(as left-wing as they come) supported the 2nd amendment in its entirety, they just may change their minds and realize what is truly good for the people:

Black History & The 2nd Amendment - YouTube

 

[Phil1]

The prosecutor doesn't always charge.

We had a shooting here a few years ago at a gas station. During a verbal altercation one man grabbed the lid of a trash container and raised it up to hit the other man. Second man drew his gun and killed the first man. The station surveillance camera captured the event.

Prosecutor said: No duty to retreat when using deadly force to prevent an attack with a dangerous weapon. Good shoot. No charge.

Legal bills: $0.00

Not saying you're incorrect.

AND I'm not suggesting that the NRA is exercising a fear campaign to make a buck.

"The legal implications of being invovled in an act of self-defense could cost you as much as $100,000.*
NRA Self-defense Insurance

Most people don't realize that many homeowner's policies don't include coverage for acts of self-defense, concealed carry liability insurance, or the related legal costs for criminal defense charges. We recognized this gap in coverage and created a plan to help protect National Rifle Association members should the unthinkable happen.

This NRA-endorsed Self-defense Insurance bundles both Self-defense and Personal Firearms Protection coverage, and provides Civil Defense and Liability, Criminal Defense Reimbursement, Concealed Carry Liability and Bodily Injury or Property Damage if you are involved in an act
of self-defense. Even if you don't have a concealed carry permit, we still offer protection for the use of legally owned firearms.

NRA Self-defense Insurance Covers:

Up to the limit selected for criminal and civil defense costs
The cost of civil suit defense is provided in addition to the limit of liability for bodily injury and property damage
Criminal defense reimbursement is provided for alleged criminal actions involving self-defense when you are acquitted of charges
Provides coverage for bodily injury or property damage caused by the use of a firearm

Annual Liability Limit Options:

$165 annually:
$100,000 combined single limit with a $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
NRA Endorsed Insurance Program for NRA Members, Clubs & Business Affiliates

A good read on the subject:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/le...n-owner-needs-to-know-about-self-defense-law/

A good summary of which is:
As gun owners, if only for our own best interests in avoiding prosecution after legitimately defending ourselves, we owe it to ourselves to have a clear and complete understanding of the laws about self defense and the legal system that will enforce those laws."

Which is sort of what Graham already suggested.

If in doubt read the article and understand the concepts of liability

A longer version of the law(gone wrong) is here(46 pages):
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey Booklet.pdf

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS LINK FOR THE LAW GONE WRONG.

FREE BOOKLET ON SUBJECT:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/request-free-booklet