Defiance to Bighorn questions

[SuperSneakySniper]

Hey there folks!

Currently running a Defiance action, and I really love the slick bolt operation. But I was thinking about picking up a TL3, and was wondering a couple different things:

1: How smooth is the TL3 in terms of operating the bolt compared to a Defiance? I've never had a BigHorn in my hands so I'd never know. I love a bolt that I can run fast.

and more importantly, 2: I heard that there was a thing with Bighorns having some resistance when closing the bolt, the "cock on close" thing. Is that a common trait among all actions or just Bighorn? My Defiance technically has a little resistance when closing the bolt but it's a smooth resistance, and pretty much next to nothing, negligible imo.
Is the Bighorn the same way? I have a spare Trigger Tech I was going to use for the build, does the action do well with it in terms of this issue?

Thanks!

 

[schofield]

Following. I am interested in the opinions of this one as well.

 

[Sheldon N]

Tag in as well. I've got a TL3 that should be done before too long here, currently running a Defiance which is well worn in and super slick.

 

[Pusher591]

I never noticed any resistance on my TL2. It was very smooth/slick from the factory. I ran it uncoated so if you decide to cerakote it may get a little tighter until it wears in.

 

[Westex6.5]

My last action was a deviant and I currently own a TL3. So here's my opinion.

Question 1. Both actions have a completely different feel when cycling the bolt. Understandable considering that one action has a bead blast finish with NP3 bolt while the other has a polished finish on both the bolt and action. I will give the deviant a leg up when it comes to "smoothness", but one cycle on a Bighorn will put a shit eating grin on your face. Both will cycle just as fast as the other.

Question 2. I know exactly why and how this rumor started. Long story short. Like all custom builds the trigger should be timed to the action. Plain and simple. My TL3 has no more difficulty with cock on close than my Deviant, AJ built TL2, and AJ built Tactical action that I've ran.

Hope this helps. Fwiw it would be a cold day in hell before I traded my TL3 for another Deviant. Happy camper here. Goodluck

 

[earthquake]

^ this. I have a 5yo Defiance Rebel and a TL3. Hard to describe, but they are just...different. I guess the only way I can think to describe it is the Defiance is glassy, thin and metallic...but still smooth.

Closing the bolt on the TL3 is like sitting down in a Lamborghini or being strapped into the seat of an F-22. It's art.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

 

[delfuego]

Typical bad info from SH. Bighorn is smooth. Almost every action is cock on close. Bighorns do like to be broken in. By your second or 3rd barrel they feel even smother. These are not BR actions, there will be trade offs.

 

[nfoley]

Delfuego - did you mean to say most actions are cock on open?

 

[RampedRaptor]

I believe he means "cock on lock." After installing a HVR on my TL3 I have the restance that you'll see some people complain about online. I will say it was disappointing and I haven't research why this isn't a preventable situation but it can be remedied by timing the trigger to the action. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[RampedRaptor]

"This is common it will not cause any damage or issues with your trigger. What you are feeling is the "Cock on Close" the cocking piece is engaging the trigger sear before the bolt is in full lock-up, thus it is holding the striker assembly in place while the bolt is closing the last little bit, also referred to as "Trigger Timing". As the action is cycled the closing cams (Ramps at the Breach end) will wear in a little and it will become smoother when closing the bolt. This timing can be adjusted by our team at BigHorn ($75) or another competent Gun Smith. Timing is specific to each individual trigger. "


Aaron Tritsch

Aaron if you don't want this posted than I'll take it down but maybe it'll save you guys over at Bighorn from answering the same question over and over.

 

[Carl_Ross]

I'm in the process of switching myself. There is definitely a difference in feel, the TL3 has a little more going on with its mechanical ejector, and you can feel that. I can't say one or the other feels better, they're both pretty great. Running rounds out of the mag and shooting under time pressure you wouldn't notice the difference. Both are great actions, choose the one with the construction and features you prefer.

 

[Rldr-08]

I have both, sure they feel different but to me it makes absolutely no difference. They're both smooth and function flawlessly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bohem]

The "cock on close" people are commenting about is there in a Defiance action too. There are 2 things happening when teh bolt closes on those actions.

They bolt have a detent type feature which causes you to "lift" the cocking piece out of the detent valley before you get the bolt closed. This is to avoid the cocking piece falling off the ramp and decocking the mainspring with the bolt open.

Springfield, Mausingfield, Mauser, Win70 pre-64 actions... all of them have a feature like this in some variant. Some are more positive lock than others.

THe other part of "cock on close" going on is how much the act of rotating the bolt actually lifts the cocking piece as it engages the sear bar in the trigger.

On a Rem 700 this is appx 2/3 cock on open and 1/3 cock on close.
In a Bighorn TL2 it is about 85% CoO and 15% CoC
The TL3 is 95-105% CoO and -5 to 5% CoC; this varies based on the trigger like all the others.

All of these values are relative based on the trigger. The detent depth on the bolt was reduced from the TL2 to TL3.

Ideal for bolt lift force would be 50/50 balance but that has some potential safety issues as well as making it harder to close the bolt; folks are more likely to feel it.

This "cock on close" issue being bandied about on the TL3 threads is present in practically every action to some level. The gent above that mentions how smooth his TL2 is understands the CoO/CoC balance and on that action it's about 15% CoC by design.

The TL3 also has appx 1/3 less bolt lift force (all things equal) to the TL2 just due to some design changes that were implemented in the TL3.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

1. Both are very very smooth. I would actually give the edge to the Bighorn. My Defiance has Cerakote on the action body, and Micro Slick on the bolt which probably ended up making things worse. I love on the Bighorn how it runs silky smooth with or without lube. My defiance prefers a light lubing. I also love how easily the Bighorn's bolt slides down the raceway, its the smoothest in this regard that I've ever felt.

2. Despite what people say, the felt resistance on close is there with the two TL3s a friend and I have. Now having said that, I wouldn't let that issue by itself stop you from getting one. Its not necessarily bad, just different. Its smooth, but firmer than my Defiance. The Defiance closes with virtually no resistance while the Bighorn takes a slightly more conscious effort. I definitely prefer the feel of the Defiance. If you are running either hard in a match or quick target shooting situation, I don't think you'd be bothered by it or maybe even notice it. Its more of an issue when you are sitting at home playing with it you'll notice.

 

[delfuego]

Watch this.
I have owned or shot every generation of the Bighorn actions going back to the cro-moly versions. They are good actions, so are Defiance. Both can be run as fast as you can cycle them. Getting real tired of people repeating garbage they read on this site.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

Gotchya, so I guess the "cock on close" "issue" thing can be remedied by wearing the action in, and/or having it tuned out anyways, so that's good to hear!

 

[shooting4sanity]

Both are very nice actions, but if you put them side-by-side and are looking for the differences you will find differences. Having shot the Defiance, when I recently got my TL3 I noticed it is very smooth and nice, but the final down pressure on closing the bolt is greater than that of the Defiance. I paid Bighorn to time the trigger, got it back and felt there was a difference, albeit a minimal difference. When I'm shooting my TL3 I don't notice the extra pressure it closes with - it's a non-issue with mine and I'm looking forward to cycling that thing thousands and thousands of times.

 

[epracmetcon]

I have both. My defiance probably has 10k+ rounds on it and it is glass smooth. The TL-3 is smooth, not like the defiance though, but I only have 200 rounds down it. I have felt TL-2s that have felt like my defiance, so I can't wait to get this thing broken in.

 

[gsd1983]

My TL2 is smooth as glass.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Hey there folks!

Currently running a Defiance action, and I really love the slick bolt operation. But I was thinking about picking up a TL3, and was wondering a couple different things:

1: How smooth is the TL3 in terms of operating the bolt compared to a Defiance? I've never had a BigHorn in my hands so I'd never know. I love a bolt that I can run fast.

and more importantly, 2: I heard that there was a thing with Bighorns having some resistance when closing the bolt, the "cock on close" thing. Is that a common trait among all actions or just Bighorn? My Defiance technically has a little resistance when closing the bolt but it's a smooth resistance, and pretty much next to nothing, negligible imo.
Is the Bighorn the same way? I have a spare Trigger Tech I was going to use for the build, does the action do well with it in terms of this issue?

Thanks!

I have three TL-2's and absolutely love them. Before I bought them, I had a Defiance Deviant, but I sent it back. the Defiance is a superb action, but it just didn't blow my skirt up. If anything, I thought it was too slick. I also intended to Cerakote the barreled action(s) and the Defiance had a nice, polished finish that I would have ended up abrasive blasting. Didn't feel real good about that.
I chambered them in .223, 6, 6.5 x 47 Lapua and .308W. After I was done chambering all three of them, for giggles, I pulled them all down and moved the barrels to the other actions and checked the headspace. I was extremely impressed. All three of them head spaced the same. That means that the beginning of the trunion thread in each receiver was in exactly the same place as the others.

I did Cerakote all three actions and if I had it to do over, I would not have Cerakoted the interior of each action. The Cerakote seems somewhat abrasive and has worn down the NP3 finish on the bolts. In the future, I will make a spud to put in the action to keep Cerakote out of the interior and raceway.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

Ah interesting insight. I'll keep that in mind. I'm not a real big fan of cerakote on anything except maybe chassis or outside of AR15 receivers etc... honestly. If I were to get a coating, I think I'd do it all in Ionbond.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

So i figure this is a good place to bring up a question i also posted in the gunsmithing section... i have a stock thats inletted for a bighorn tl2 right hand short action. Will a deviant short action drop in there? What if anything would have to be done in order to use the side bolt release on the deviant as well as would the bolt handle cutout on the stock have to be opened for the deviant? I figure maybe one of you guys went through this.

Shucks, I think the best person to ask would be the stock manufacturer, I contact Manners about a question like this once and they were very helpful. Sometimes the bolt release is different but that's all I'm aware of, I'm not sure about the bolt handle. I mostly use chassis so it's rarely an issue.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

Yeah i just came on here to look for answers because manners was closed for the day. I could call tomorrow but i was hoping smeone knew here so i do t have to think about it all night!

LOL I know exactly how you feel. Yup. Many a night I've done the same thing. Shit keeps your eyes wide all night long. Good luck! Haha XD

 

[Supersubes]

Hey there folks!

Currently running a Defiance action, and I really love the slick bolt operation. But I was thinking about picking up a TL3, and was wondering a couple different things:

1: How smooth is the TL3 in terms of operating the bolt compared to a Defiance? I've never had a BigHorn in my hands so I'd never know. I love a bolt that I can run fast.

and more importantly, 2: I heard that there was a thing with Bighorns having some resistance when closing the bolt, the "cock on close" thing. Is that a common trait among all actions or just Bighorn? My Defiance technically has a little resistance when closing the bolt but it's a smooth resistance, and pretty much next to nothing, negligible imo.
Is the Bighorn the same way? I have a spare Trigger Tech I was going to use for the build, does the action do well with it in terms of this issue?

Thanks!

I've owned a number of custom actions and AI's, and the bighorn ranks right up there. I just got my TL3 last week, and haven't screwed a barrel on it yet, but i did put a trigger on. I'm a big AI fan, but as far as a two lug actions go, the TL3 is awful nice. Unless it rears something ugly, which I dont expect, I prefer its feature set and smoothness to anything else. I hope to have a Tempest in the next few weeks, maybe that will take over as my favorite. I've personally never been a big defiance fan. I owned an early phoenix machine(before it was defiance), and I thought the bolt was sticky. The current ones feel that way to me still.


The cock on closing thing is a timing issue, caused by tolerances between the upper sear and the cocking piece in the bolt. Any action can have that.

 

[FALex]

I posted similar questions under the TL3 builds post. I was just doing some research and came across some folks speaking about the cock on close resistance with their TL3's. To be quite honest, I obviously knew that the trigger has to be timed to the action, I just didn't know this was a function that could be refined.

I find it hard to believe that negatively impacts the Bighorns. I was debating the TL3 and the Deviant as well, and after doing my usual "analysis paralysis" bullshit, I opted for the TL3. I like the idea of being able to swap bolt heads, CRF, and the mechanical ejection.

Curious what you guys are running for triggers on your TL3's? My rifle will be a match rifle, predominantly. I run a Timney CE in my other comp rifle. It is set to 10oz, and although I like it, I do find it has some creepiness in it. I'd like to run a Jewell, but I've personally witnessed Jewell's do some fucked up shit...this included one of them not running half way through a match, likely due to dirt and debris, but I've also seen another one that created a true AD when the competitor cammed his bolt down and the hammer dropped (no booger hook on bang stick). Competitor said it was possible that the squeeze weight had been decreased too much, but that is some haunting shit, regardless.

I feel ANOTHER "what trigger" thread coming on!! HAHAHA!!!

 

[blackblue]

I'll likely run a Huber on my TL3 build.

 

[SuperSneakySniper]

I'm planning on running a TriggerTech. I've got a few of the flat and curved shoe types and I love the things. I'll report back with my findings, though it may be a while before I have everything in-hand lol

 

[ArmyJerry]

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