Exploding barrel on Savage muzzle loaders.
- Thread starter Maggot
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In savages defense...smokeless powder is a weight measurement and typical muzzle loader guys that do NOT reload often do not know what they are doing and are used to volume measuring...and oh it is close enough type measuring. Also they are not afraid to push the limits as the pyro, and black powder, that are more forgiving. I own a savage M10 the year after they came out, zero issues.
I've never had a muzzleloader so I defer to your knowledge. However it's almost beyond argument that the overwhelming majority of kabooms in cartridge firearms are user induced. Would not bet against that on muzzleloaders either.
I really think it comes down to no respect and no clue about smokeless powder...compressed load, 209 shot shell primers, and the need for guys to push the limits! lol
^^^^ (MtnCreek's post). And this is why damascus barreled shotguns came to be thought of in this country as unsafe. The introduction of smokeless powder came at a time when damascus barrels were still very common, and they destroyed a lot of nice shotguns because of the same mistakes. (There's also the issue of some very cheaply made, "bargain" twist-steel barrels that truly were inferior, but these didn't come from reputable manufacturers). In England, where they require proof-testing of every firearm, damascus/twist barrels are considered every bit the equal of other steels, provided they pass proof.
I haven't had any exposure to these smokeless muzzleloaders, but my first thought was, "I wonder how many of these were put away at the end of last season, still loaded, and then loaded again at the beginning of this season, on top of last year's load." Other than marking the ramrod for depth, do they have some other foolproof way to determine if the rifle is loaded (I would assume so)?
I haven't had any exposure to these smokeless muzzleloaders, but my first thought was, "I wonder how many of these were put away at the end of last season, still loaded, and then loaded again at the beginning of this season, on top of last year's load." Other than marking the ramrod for depth, do they have some other foolproof way to determine if the rifle is loaded (I would assume so)?
I'm no expert but people are crazy, had a replacement Ruger Super Blackhawk come through shop because owner tried to make a hot 44 mag deer round. Drilled out primmer hole, used magnum rifle primer and exceeded load data by 2.4 grains, by his own admission. Split cylinder, and blew top of frame off. The only good things were replaced revolver, and he kept his fingers.
Your last sentence - are you saying that Ruger replaced that revolver for him after that?
my brother has a savage ml 10. i've shot my buddies ml 10, too. i cant see an issue so long as you follow the loads and DO NOT VARY.
Yes sir. I called the guy (owner), it had been months after accident. I had no idea why Ruger sent a revolver with his info on it to me (FFL). He came in shop, showed me his scars and told me what happened. He said he told Ruger how it happened too. They replaced it and did not charge him a dime. At least that was his story. But he seemed like a straight shooter, and very humble reloader. haha
Put a cap on it and pull the trigger. You'll find out quick, and fix the problem at the same time.
If you shoot a muzzleloader, you are a reloader. The same care you take when measuring powders and seating bullets in a cartridge should be taken when loading a muzzleloader. The article says the shooter loaded 43 grains of powder. What powder? Details matter. 43 grains of autocomp is not the same as 43 grains of retumbo.
I find it somewhat hard to believe that the barrels were found to be metalurgically defective. These muzzleloaders are smokeless firearms- the same as your 308win- and built to withstand similar pressures. If savage's metallic cartridge barrels were "kabooming" at a similar rate, they would have been sued out of existence long ago. Combine the fact that they have not with the fact that most centerfire rifle shooters are not reloaders (and buy off the shelf ammo) and i see user error as the most likely cause of the m10 failures.
(It's hard to fuck up using factory ammo- though it can happen- which would suggest that failures of those rifles using factory ammo are unlikely to be user induced. I.e., You are unlikely to load an over-charge into a rifle using factory ammo. These rifles have a very low rate of defect-induced failure. These rifles are built to withstand the same pressures as the m10 muzzleloaders. There is no factory ammunition available for m10 muzzleloaders, making the possibility of user error greater. The rate of kabooms in m10 muzzleloaders is purported to be much greater than in metallic cartridge smokeless firearms. The most likely cause of the failures in m10 muzzleloaders are the same as for metallic cartridge firearms- an incompatible combination of; primer, powder type, powder weight, bullet type, and bullet weight leading to an over-pressure situation causing the failure. This IS known to happen in metallic cartridge firearms, and happens almost exclusively to those shooting reloads- or defective ammunition.)
I find it somewhat hard to believe that the barrels were found to be metalurgically defective. These muzzleloaders are smokeless firearms- the same as your 308win- and built to withstand similar pressures. If savage's metallic cartridge barrels were "kabooming" at a similar rate, they would have been sued out of existence long ago. Combine the fact that they have not with the fact that most centerfire rifle shooters are not reloaders (and buy off the shelf ammo) and i see user error as the most likely cause of the m10 failures.
(It's hard to fuck up using factory ammo- though it can happen- which would suggest that failures of those rifles using factory ammo are unlikely to be user induced. I.e., You are unlikely to load an over-charge into a rifle using factory ammo. These rifles have a very low rate of defect-induced failure. These rifles are built to withstand the same pressures as the m10 muzzleloaders. There is no factory ammunition available for m10 muzzleloaders, making the possibility of user error greater. The rate of kabooms in m10 muzzleloaders is purported to be much greater than in metallic cartridge smokeless firearms. The most likely cause of the failures in m10 muzzleloaders are the same as for metallic cartridge firearms- an incompatible combination of; primer, powder type, powder weight, bullet type, and bullet weight leading to an over-pressure situation causing the failure. This IS known to happen in metallic cartridge firearms, and happens almost exclusively to those shooting reloads- or defective ammunition.)
I have more than a decade of experience with smokeless MLs, Savage and home builds. If anything, they are over-engineered and probably have a higher safety margin than most rifles. The problem is the nut behind the butt. People do dumb things and especially so, it seems, with MLs. I frequented likely the best message board for these things and on several occasions even very experienced people did something stupid like not pay attention at the range and shoot the ramrod. Even doing that, the worst case scenario was a slight loose spot (bulge) in the barrel. These guns are tough.
Unless conclusively proven otherwise, I'm confident user error is to blame in most if not all of these cases. People will say what they CLAIM they REMEMBER, but that doesn't mean they didn' grab the wrong powder, measure wrong, or seat a second bullet/charge without knowing.
Unless conclusively proven otherwise, I'm confident user error is to blame in most if not all of these cases. People will say what they CLAIM they REMEMBER, but that doesn't mean they didn' grab the wrong powder, measure wrong, or seat a second bullet/charge without knowing.
everyone around me shoots the ml 10 and push me to "upgrade". i likey my flintlock and will stick with it.
Should have stuck with black powder. I'll never understand the point of having a muzzleloader that takes smokeless powder. I mean I get that smokeless powder is easier to find than real black powder, but still....
That smokeless powder may be easier to find is not an issue- and not always true either (aftermath of Sandyhook, anyone?) Non corrosive, almost no powder fouling, no smoke, higher velocities, more consistent powder. All of the things that make smokeless powder better for metallic cartridges make is better for muzzleloader too. The only reason that muzzleloaders did not evolve to handle smokeless powder is that cartridge ammunition rendered them obsolete before smokeless powder was invented. That said, the m10 appeals especially to that subset of the muzzleloader shooting crowd that doesn’t want to clean between shots, or clean before putting the rifle away. It’s like a shortcut to muzzleloader shooting. All of the shooting, none of the mess. I don’t want to say lazy, but I’m thinking it loudly. And, it appeals to the “speed freaks” that push the envelope of safe loads. Where these two groups overlap, disaster lurks.
I guess I'm just old school when it comes to traditional shooting. I mean I'm the type of guy who thinks it's sacrilegious to to "tacticoolize" an AK47 or M1 Garand. Personally, I don't believe it's really muzzleloading shooting unless you're using real black powder. Pyrodex doesn't count.
As far as the cleaning goes, I guess I'm just weird because personally I LOVE cleaning my guns. Also, anyone who shoots real black powder will agree it has a much better smell to it when burned than smokeless.
I have one and a buddy has one. These things are over built and weigh a ton. The breech is beefy and huge.
This is my example of how tough these Savages are. My buddy was getting his ready for deer season. This guy is a total idiot as you'll see. He Loaded it and tried to fire and nothing happened. Tried a few times and no luck. Pulled the nipple and was able to get a little powder in, cleaned the nipple and tried again. It fired and almost knocked him off the bench. The dumbass never unloaded it and basically doubled it up. The gun held fast and is still a good shooter. No damage other than his pride. Damn lucky. I didn't have mine then and I'm amazed at the stupidity of that incident.
Stupid hurts...
and
You can't fix stupid, even with duct tape.
My guess is the wrong owder or something other than simple barrel failure.
I was talking to an investigator of firearms incidents. He had a case of a fatality where a rifle had blown up and killed the shooter. (Civil suit against the manufacturer) A couple unfired rounds were found in his pockets. Those "reloads" had powder that matched a can on his reloading bench. It was full of several different powders that it seemed he dumped random powders into and then reloaded from. It goes to show that just because someone has a little bit of knowledge on guns, powders, and reloading, it doesn't make them smart enough to escape the stupid gene. My guess is something similar in these MLs.
This is my example of how tough these Savages are. My buddy was getting his ready for deer season. This guy is a total idiot as you'll see. He Loaded it and tried to fire and nothing happened. Tried a few times and no luck. Pulled the nipple and was able to get a little powder in, cleaned the nipple and tried again. It fired and almost knocked him off the bench. The dumbass never unloaded it and basically doubled it up. The gun held fast and is still a good shooter. No damage other than his pride. Damn lucky. I didn't have mine then and I'm amazed at the stupidity of that incident.
Stupid hurts...
and
You can't fix stupid, even with duct tape.
My guess is the wrong owder or something other than simple barrel failure.
I was talking to an investigator of firearms incidents. He had a case of a fatality where a rifle had blown up and killed the shooter. (Civil suit against the manufacturer) A couple unfired rounds were found in his pockets. Those "reloads" had powder that matched a can on his reloading bench. It was full of several different powders that it seemed he dumped random powders into and then reloaded from. It goes to show that just because someone has a little bit of knowledge on guns, powders, and reloading, it doesn't make them smart enough to escape the stupid gene. My guess is something similar in these MLs.
Shit like that is why I am EXTREMELY selective about who I teach reloading to. I have a "test" they go through (without them knowing it) about their level of attention to detail. If they fail it, I happen to always be unavailable when they want to ask a question or be shown something.
The concept of "traditional" firearms makes me lol. Quite possibly the only "tradition" in firearms is innovation. Does anyone really think Daniel Boone would take a black powder Pennsylvania long rifle over a modern 30-06? L A U G H A B L E ! ! !
I don't mind cleaning any of my rifles, but I don't go out of my way to get them dirty. I like 777 powder for the front-stuffer because it doesn't smell like the others. When at the range, I'd rather do more shooting and less cleaning, but swabbing between shots is the name of the game. Owning a muzzleloader extends my hunting season- as does owning a bow. If not for that, I wouldn't.
I just thought about this. There can be a pretty substantial difference in pressure with what could be perceived as a small difference in powder charge. For those that shoot 50 grain pyrodex or 777 pellets, a 2-3 grain difference in a smokeless powder charge might seem trivial. A much larger difference may not seem like a big deal. A "good enough" attitude when measuring a charge combined with inexperience or ignorance is dangerous with modern smokeless powders.
It figures Maser would revel in the smell of rotten eggs...
I don't mind cleaning any of my rifles, but I don't go out of my way to get them dirty. I like 777 powder for the front-stuffer because it doesn't smell like the others. When at the range, I'd rather do more shooting and less cleaning, but swabbing between shots is the name of the game. Owning a muzzleloader extends my hunting season- as does owning a bow. If not for that, I wouldn't.
I just thought about this. There can be a pretty substantial difference in pressure with what could be perceived as a small difference in powder charge. For those that shoot 50 grain pyrodex or 777 pellets, a 2-3 grain difference in a smokeless powder charge might seem trivial. A much larger difference may not seem like a big deal. A "good enough" attitude when measuring a charge combined with inexperience or ignorance is dangerous with modern smokeless powders.
It figures Maser would revel in the smell of rotten eggs...
I’m sure that with enough black powder you can get any of them to pop. But, I can load up to 150 grains of black powder behind a 300 grain projectile with no pressure issue in my muzzleloader. As little as 50 grains is also safe. The same dynamic range does not apply to smokeless powder- even for a gun designed to use it. Because of the differences in pressure, it is apples and oranges comparing black powder muzzleloaders to a smokeless powder muzzleloader.
IMHO, The problem is people not understanding smokeless powder. I’ve poured pryodex rs strait from the bottle into a muzzle loader (not advisable though). Do the same with smokeless and you’re going to have a problem.
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