Are BA rifles obsolete on the modern day battefield?

[Kristian_Jensen]

After reading books by Chris Kyle and The Reaper by Nicholas Irving I started wondering if we might see Bolt Action rifles slowly being replaced by SA DM sniper rifles?

The need for a 1000 yards shot might not be as high as fast follow up shots at 500 yards?

What are your (non religious) opinion. And remember, I'm talking about the modern battlefield and not hunting or long range competitions

 

[ArmyJerry]

how many 1000+ shots present themselves on the battlefield? mountain top outposts should have mortars and 50 cal so do you really need to eb shooting out that far?

 

[bogeybrown]

how many 1000+ shots present themselves on the battlefield? mountain top outposts should have mortars and 50 cal so do you really need to eb shooting out that far?

With the way the ROE's developed into lunacy, the ability to shoot one very specific person from far away remained very important in Afgh, although those ROE's got stupid also.

Indirect fire was "icky" to the cunts at KAF and BAF giving authorization to fire. Hell, they pulled the Mk19's off most of the gun trucks because those scary 40mm rounds may cause too much damage.

I ain't sayin it's right, but when you're not allowed to use the other toys in the box, a precision rifle becomes disproportionately important. 1000yds in Afgh was considered pretty close in some of the AO's.

 

[ArmyJerry]

hmmmm good point, i forgot we have pussies in charge.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

After reading books by Chris Kyle and The Reaper by Nicholas Irving I started wondering if we might see Bolt Action rifles slowly being replaced by SA DM sniper rifles?

The need for a 1000 yards shot might not be as high as fast follow up shots at 500 yards?

What are your (non religious) opinion. And remember, I'm talking about the modern battlefield and not hunting or long range competitions

Depends on the A/O

 

[TheGerman]

Nope.

There's always going to be the need for an option to observe and shoot someone in the face at 1400 yards without using a cruise missile or artillery when you can't blow everything up in a 200m radius.

Our real limiting factor was the calibers we tended to want to use for bolt guns for the most part until 300WM starting becoming more prevalent as well as now seriously looking at making larger calibers more 'mainstream'. The SASS or whatever the new version is called is still using 7.62. That alone should tell you everything you need.

 

[Scarface26]

What the German said is spot on.

Points to ponder:
Most guys who are good at the PRS game have another round in the chamber by the time the spotter starts giving the correction. How much faster do you need to be?

There's a good paper that's ten or so years old about infantry engagements in Afghanistan. Evidently the gent who wrote this said that the enemy often starts engaging with direct fire in excess of 1000 meters and will often terminate the engagement when the Americans have closed to 500. The paper was titled taking back the infantry half kilometer or something like that. It was great and I'm sure the gentleman who wrote this (probably on his very limited off time) had his words of wisdom fall on deaf ears. The point of this paragraph is to remind us that a gas gun is harder to shoot accurately than a bolt gun is, and if engagements in this kind of war are going to be routinely in excess of 500 yards (probably not urban, obviously), the precision rifle is what you don't leave home without.

The other big point of the paper is that marksmanship training is woefully lacking and we could fix that relatively cheaply. Don't remember the figures but the gist is that if you are a rifleman a large part of your training should be shooting.

The big semi auto has a place, no doubt, but so does the bolt gun.

If I sounded preachy please forgive me. Not my intent.

God bless America

 

[Unknown]

Just because the current situation, or ROE means leaving some weapon behind (like the MK 19), that doesn't mean that it won't be useful in some situation in the future. The same thing applies to martial arts...you won't always use a specific technique, but it sure helps to have it when you DO need it. Easier to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

 

[bogeybrown]

Just because the current situation, or ROE means leaving some weapon behind (like the MK 19), that doesn't mean that it won't be useful in some situation in the future. The same thing applies to martial arts...you won't always use a specific technique, but it sure helps to have it when you DO need it. Easier to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Agreed, and I hope I didn't come across as advocating the removal of certain weapons, especially my beloved Mk19. I personally felt that it should've been used for pretty much everything over there until the situation exceeded its range:

Need to breach a door: Mk19 it
Need to breach a wall: Mk19 it
Lone Haji shooting at you: Mk19 him
He has buddies near him: Mk19 them
Vehicle approaching and not responding to commands: Mk19 it
Taking fire from a village: Mk19 it
Taking fire from unknown source: Mk19 everything until the incoming fire ceases

In my opinion our ROE's were way too clean, and worked against us

 

[ArmyJerry]

that's the way i feel about my M163 and my 4 deuce. all the answers lay in those two weapons, everything else is just background noise.

Agreed, and I hope I didn't come across as advocating the removal of certain weapons, especially my beloved Mk19. I personally felt that it should've been used for pretty much everything over there until the situation exceeded its range:

Need to breach a door: Mk19 it
Need to breach a wall: Mk19 it
Lone Haji shooting at you: Mk19 him
He has buddies near him: Mk19 them
Vehicle approaching and not responding to commands: Mk19 it
Taking fire from a village: Mk19 it
Taking fire from unknown source: Mk19 everything until the incoming fire ceases

In my opinion our ROE's were way too clean, and worked against us

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

that's the way i feel about my M163 and my 4 deuce. all the answers lay in those two weapons, everything else is just background noise.

Nothing says love like an A1C, 175 long-tom or a Buff Strike

 

[308pirate]

Even if they ever become obsolete for organized militaries, they will remain relevant to irregular forces for a long, long time to come.

 

[TheGerman]

Agreed, and I hope I didn't come across as advocating the removal of certain weapons, especially my beloved Mk19. I personally felt that it should've been used for pretty much everything over there until the situation exceeded its range:

Need to breach a door: Mk19 it
Need to breach a wall: Mk19 it
Lone Haji shooting at you: Mk19 him
He has buddies near him: Mk19 them
Vehicle approaching and not responding to commands: Mk19 it
Taking fire from a village: Mk19 it
Taking fire from unknown source: Mk19 everything until the incoming fire ceases

In my opinion our ROE's were way too clean, and worked against us

So tell us how you feel about the MK19

 

[TheGerman]

What the German said is spot on.

Points to ponder:
Most guys who are good at the PRS game have another round in the chamber by the time the spotter starts giving the correction. How much faster do you need to be?

There's a good paper that's ten or so years old about infantry engagements in Afghanistan. Evidently the gent who wrote this said that the enemy often starts engaging with direct fire in excess of 1000 meters and will often terminate the engagement when the Americans have closed to 500. The paper was titled taking back the infantry half kilometer or something like that. It was great and I'm sure the gentleman who wrote this (probably on his very limited off time) had his words of wisdom fall on deaf ears. The point of this paragraph is to remind us that a gas gun is harder to shoot accurately than a bolt gun is, and if engagements in this kind of war are going to be routinely in excess of 500 yards (probably not urban, obviously), the precision rifle is what you don't leave home without.

The other big point of the paper is that marksmanship training is woefully lacking and we could fix that relatively cheaply. Don't remember the figures but the gist is that if you are a rifleman a large part of your training should be shooting.

The big semi auto has a place, no doubt, but so does the bolt gun.

If I sounded preachy please forgive me. Not my intent.

God bless America

I had a paper somewhere that was a collection of first hand experiences from both the Muj and the Russian side. I'll have to find it, but it was basically translated first person accounts as well as just generalized stories of how they do things and then at some points there were narratives examining the data and what can be learned from it. Was a pseudo Afghanistan version of Rommell's Attacks.

One of the things that stuck out at me were that the Muj openly admitted multiple times, across multiple people, that had the Russian's regularly escorted their convoy's with helicopters as they initially did in the beginning before it was determined to be a waste of resources as well as not sent the same convoy, down the same route, on the same day, they would not have been able to touch their convoys. Instead a group of 20-30 Muj with a little patience were able to constantly harass, damage and delay a convoy that was at times 3 miles long. The lesson from this wasn't about convoys or security, but that if you deny the Muj the ability to come right up on you, they are at a huge disadvantage due to their lack of anything except small arms and RPGs.

This tactics has evolved a bit now, to where you will get pot shotted at a distance and an inexperienced team will stop/dismount to engage and focus on the #1 misused tactic we have; fire superiority. All while Muj ambush teams #1 and #2, 75 yards away in a Wadi wait to put you in a U ambush that now has flanking fire from the element you initially thought you were going to engage.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Define the modern battlefield?

Because every time we think we're prepared for the 'next' war, we're preparing for the last one.

Bolt-Action rifles have their utility. On any battlefield. Because just when you think you have figured it all out and are ready for 'modern' warfare... some guys with punji stakes and bombs in goat carcasses manages to figure out that your 21st century weaponry is just not cutting it.

The mind is the best weapon. Add a warrior mindset to a BA rifle, or a good bowie knife or a pit full of sharpened branches... and you have a win.

Never write off a weapon. In the hands of a warrior.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I had a paper somewhere that was a collection of first hand experiences from both the Muj and the Russian side. ....

The classic book "The Bear went Over the Mountain" covers a lot of that, too.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[TheGerman]

The classic book "The Bear went Over the Mountain" covers a lot of that, too.

Cheers,

Sirhr

From the cover picture that may be it.

I had a printed out copy I was given at one point.

 

[bogeybrown]

From the cover picture that may be it.

I had a printed out copy I was given at one point.

From what you described it sounded like that book. There was also a follow-up called "The Other Side of the Mountain". "The Bear" was from the Soviet perspective and "The Other Side" was from the Muj. IIRC the Soviet book was essentially an unauthorized publication of AAR's from field commanders. It was powerful read when you were walking past dead T54/55's that still littered the countryside.

It's difficult to think you've got shit figured out when in a single day you can see the remains of Alexander's, the Brits' and the Soviets' forays into that shithole.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Yeah, I have both books.... they are amazing reads. In 2001, they suddenly became very, very hot property. There were a few copies floating around the Pentagon and USSOC during the '90s. It was a psychological warfare must-read. And after 9/11 suddenly it became a virtual best-seller. But for several weeks after 9/111 you couldn't even find a copy at a library. You also could not find a copy of a Koran, either!

It's not an exciting read. Very dry and, as you describe, both are simply AAR's. No embellishment. No heroics. Just an analysis by the officers/leaders on the scene of what went right and what went wrong in small unit engagements with the Muj. And, as you mentioned Bogey, the Other Side of the Mountain was a follow-on. I seem to recall that it had more Afghan perspective, but also included Sov. material.

At one point, several divisional commanders were making all their officers and senior NCO's read it before heading to 'Stan. It's still relevant. Then again, so is Kipling when it comes to that shithole...

Lots of copies out there now to read. It's on my shelf with Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Mahan and Douhet... the military classics. It ranks there.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Mormegil87]

The classic book "The Bear went Over the Mountain" covers a lot of that, too.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Yeah, I have both books.... they are amazing reads. In 2001, they suddenly became very, very hot property. There were a few copies floating around the Pentagon and USSOC during the '90s. It was a psychological warfare must-read. And after 9/11 suddenly it became a virtual best-seller. But for several weeks after 9/111 you couldn't even find a copy at a library. You also could not find a copy of a Koran, either!

It's not an exciting read. Very dry and, as you describe, both are simply AAR's. No embellishment. No heroics. Just an analysis by the officers/leaders on the scene of what went right and what went wrong in small unit engagements with the Muj. And, as you mentioned Bogey, the Other Side of the Mountain was a follow-on. I seem to recall that it had more Afghan perspective, but also included Sov. material.

At one point, several divisional commanders were making all their officers and senior NCO's read it before heading to 'Stan. It's still relevant. Then again, so is Kipling when it comes to that shithole...

Lots of copies out there now to read. It's on my shelf with Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Mahan and Douhet... the military classics. It ranks there.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Both are excellent reads but your are right they are dry but that doesn't take away from the value or merit of the content.