Getting into a higher end build this time starting with a trued Remington 700 bolt and action. What can I expect? Will it truly be better then a factory action? Any actual tangible gain? Thanks
How much better can I expect a trued action to shoot?
- Thread starter JoshMarines
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Depends. If you got lucky enough to get an action from the factory with tight/correct tolerances and a good barrel, not much.
If you got a shit action, quite a bit.
If you got a shit action, quite a bit.
I've asked myself the same question... I have a trued action Rem 700 that shoots sub .5 MOA. I also have an AR10 with good (but not extremely good) factory parts that shoots .5 MOA. Machine tolerances have improved considerably over the past several years, factory guns can shoot quite well.
In the order of which rifle components contribute to accuracy I'd say the barrel matters most, followed by ammunition, trigger, then action. Unless your original action was a total mess, the improvements you'll see won't be increased accuracy, it'll be improved feeding, extraction, and ejection.
It's definitely tougher to justify with the abundance of quality custom actions available. Even if on the tightest of budgets, I'd find a reasonably well running donor action and put my money elsewhere.
One feels like she's had 5 kids the other feels like she did before the 5 kids.
That’s just a sign you’re not big enough....
While custom actions are sweet, they feel smoother and are all around nicer, I shoot quite a few non trued 700s and I have a couple that will shoot 1/4 moa fairly consistent. I check the recoil lug. If it’s out more than .0015, I replace it with a flat aftermarket one. After that, once you chamber the barrel properly, it’ll shoot better than a lot of guys are capable of.
I looked at it strictly from a resale point of view, by the time you pay for the factory action have it trued and add a few extras that are standard on pretty much all custom action
( side bolt release, fluted bolt if that floats your boat, better extractor, bushed and properly fitted firing pin to bolt face, properly timed, better bolt body to action fit that usually means a new bolt)
you pretty much are in the same price range as some of the custom actions that would have better resale value should you change direction later on and want something different.
The Rem 700 SPS Varmint I bought in 308 seems to be one of the good ones, the action is very smooth and it has allways been easy to find .5 MOA loads for with everything from numerous 155 grain bullets to 190 smk and custom comps I'm very happy with it as is and couldn't see dumping more into the action than what I paid for the whole rifle but that's just my opinion.
( side bolt release, fluted bolt if that floats your boat, better extractor, bushed and properly fitted firing pin to bolt face, properly timed, better bolt body to action fit that usually means a new bolt)
you pretty much are in the same price range as some of the custom actions that would have better resale value should you change direction later on and want something different.
The Rem 700 SPS Varmint I bought in 308 seems to be one of the good ones, the action is very smooth and it has allways been easy to find .5 MOA loads for with everything from numerous 155 grain bullets to 190 smk and custom comps I'm very happy with it as is and couldn't see dumping more into the action than what I paid for the whole rifle but that's just my opinion.
Until you can get into the sub 0.5 MOA range, then IMHO truing an action is NOT going to make any significant difference.
Per above, your barrel and ammo, combined with the trigger, are going to have the biggest impacts.
Once you try and go below the sub 0.5 MOA range, especially if you are trying to make 0.25 MOA or better consistently, then everything can come into play.
Unfortunately as mentioned above, you just never know with Remington.
I doubt that you are going to find a Smith who would re-barrel without truing, so your options may be limited anyway. Most aren't willing to risk combining their work with what could be factory junk.
My "fleet" is now about 50/50 between trued Remington and Custom actions. From a pure accuracy standpoint, the rebuilt Remingtons will hold their own. From a fit & function standpoint, the Customs are better.
Per comments above, if I had it to do all over, with what is available today, I would NEVER buy or build anything but a custom.
Per above, your barrel and ammo, combined with the trigger, are going to have the biggest impacts.
Once you try and go below the sub 0.5 MOA range, especially if you are trying to make 0.25 MOA or better consistently, then everything can come into play.
Unfortunately as mentioned above, you just never know with Remington.
I doubt that you are going to find a Smith who would re-barrel without truing, so your options may be limited anyway. Most aren't willing to risk combining their work with what could be factory junk.
My "fleet" is now about 50/50 between trued Remington and Custom actions. From a pure accuracy standpoint, the rebuilt Remingtons will hold their own. From a fit & function standpoint, the Customs are better.
Per comments above, if I had it to do all over, with what is available today, I would NEVER buy or build anything but a custom.
LOL as if lathes and mills capable of holding ± .0005" and grinders capable of holding ± .00005" were a recent invention........
Xlr comment on resale is very true. I never sell anything so the only thing I buy with that kind of thought in mind are collectible guns
Beauty is more than skin deep. Even a trued 700 has its own personality. You don't get that in a well designed custom action.
I was wondering the same thing when I built my 308 and 223 last spring. Talked to Scott McRee and he said what they said above.. Barrel is the biggest factor. So I went with stock receivers figuring I could always do incremental work to make it shoot better if there's a problem. I used RemAge barrels (McRee barrel on 308, and Criterion on 223) and did it myself.. They both shoot sub .5 MOA, good enough for me...
I'm not sure how much if any improvement in accuracy could be attained by blue printing the rem 700 308 I have but I'm sure a high quality barrel from any of the big name makers would squeeze a bit more accuracy and consistency out of it. That and of course the attention to detail from a quality Smith when chambering the new barrel.
What seemed to really bring it to life was installing a Jewel HVR and putting it in a good stock with an aluminum v block for the action to sit in, there was an immediate improvement with those two additions.
I know there are several ( Probably more than im aware of) custom actions now that hold the tolerances tight enough that it doesn't require the action to be sent in for a new shouldered barrel, that was a big selling point for me when I bought a Kelblys Atlas action.
What seemed to really bring it to life was installing a Jewel HVR and putting it in a good stock with an aluminum v block for the action to sit in, there was an immediate improvement with those two additions.
I know there are several ( Probably more than im aware of) custom actions now that hold the tolerances tight enough that it doesn't require the action to be sent in for a new shouldered barrel, that was a big selling point for me when I bought a Kelblys Atlas action.
If you're planning on truing an action you already have I understand, but if you're starting from scratch I'd start with one of the aftermarket actions with the Savage barrel threads. So many more off the shelf options.
Most entry level aftermarket receivers come with a rail, pinned recoil lug and a side bolt release. That's close to $300 worth of options.
Most entry level aftermarket receivers come with a rail, pinned recoil lug and a side bolt release. That's close to $300 worth of options.
IMO I'd say it depends. An action is like the foundation of a house. A square foundation is easier to build on with typically less chances for surprises with the end result. Now a person can get lucky and get a factory action with good tolerances that will vibrate/shift/behave the exact same with every shot. It's all about repeatability--will the action do the exact same thing every shot. Even tossing more stress into the equation like moving to a heavy recoiling cartridge could be a factor of the actions repeatability. What is my expectancy? It's a question the shooter has to ask himself.
Overall, I'd agree with the majority of the statements made above, like-- barrel matters most, etc. For me personally if I'm putting in the effort/money to go custom I want to make sure my foundation is sound--stacking the odds in my favor. Otherwise I keep factory firearms as stock (don't change a thing) and run the hell out of them. ETTO.
Overall, I'd agree with the majority of the statements made above, like-- barrel matters most, etc. For me personally if I'm putting in the effort/money to go custom I want to make sure my foundation is sound--stacking the odds in my favor. Otherwise I keep factory firearms as stock (don't change a thing) and run the hell out of them. ETTO.
Until you get into benchrest and record setting group sizes, all that matters is that both lugs are making contact, and the receiver face (or recoil lug)/barrel shoulder interface isn't completely off-square. If that's happening (even if it's 20% on one side and 40% on the other for bolt lugs), you're not going to get any measurable accuracy bonus by making them both 90%+. They are supported and more or less "fixed" during the firing impulse. And as long as the barrel shoulder is supported 360 degrees around, it's not going anywhere.
With those conditions settled, the rest of it is in the barrel and ammo. Good quality rifling and a chamber that's aligned with the bore. Same way that reloading dies work (do you really think your die is PERFECTLY aligned with your ram?). What matters is the internal alignment of the seating stem/cartridge, not the alignment of the shell-holder.
In most cases, blueprinting is theory-based peace of mind. In practice, I'd put more weight into getting the bolt handle timed.
With those conditions settled, the rest of it is in the barrel and ammo. Good quality rifling and a chamber that's aligned with the bore. Same way that reloading dies work (do you really think your die is PERFECTLY aligned with your ram?). What matters is the internal alignment of the seating stem/cartridge, not the alignment of the shell-holder.
In most cases, blueprinting is theory-based peace of mind. In practice, I'd put more weight into getting the bolt handle timed.
More like they want the extra revanue from the truing job.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but once a new barrel is threaded for a factory action you're kind of stuck with it.
If it doesn't shoot well and you decide to true the factory action afterwards, one of the key steps is opening up the action threads a small amount to ensure the threads are concentric with the bore of the action. Once you do this your new expensive barrel now has threads too small for your recently trued action.
Seems like the spending the extra $350ish bucks to true the action and have the barrel threaded to match would be better insurance in the long run.
I think with the recent on set of more budget friendly actions, it's cheaper to go that route (origin, nucleus, etc) but if I already owned a factory action I'd true it up and have a barrel chambered for the now trued action.
If it doesn't shoot well and you decide to true the factory action afterwards, one of the key steps is opening up the action threads a small amount to ensure the threads are concentric with the bore of the action. Once you do this your new expensive barrel now has threads too small for your recently trued action.
Seems like the spending the extra $350ish bucks to true the action and have the barrel threaded to match would be better insurance in the long run.
I think with the recent on set of more budget friendly actions, it's cheaper to go that route (origin, nucleus, etc) but if I already owned a factory action I'd true it up and have a barrel chambered for the now trued action.
Yeah good point! What I should have said is that some of the gun manufacturers are making guns with tighter tolerances than they used to, even in the lower-end of the price spectrum.
This is exactly the thought process that has driven blueprinting to be basically a "standard" practice. Everyone is afraid THEIRS is going to be the one that doesn't shoot, so everyone goes ahead and has the work done.
Just don't confuse "It can't hurt" with "necessary". Take a look at Remage style prefits. You're stuck with the factory threads for a safe/correct fit, and most don't go through the hassle of truing lugs/faces for those barrels. They shoot great. Similar story with Savage.
What's the average bill for an action true and barrel install with threaded muzzle? $1k with the barrel blank included?
I agree, and I never implied it was necessary. For someone with a factory rifle, a remage barrel or something similar would probably be a good start to gaining the most accuracy per $ spent. I think it really depends on a persons budget, skill set, and ultimately their accuracy goal for the rifle once it's complete.
It's not that they are recent inventions. It's that that accuracy doesn't require crap tons of experience to run.
It's that you don't have to dial something in by hand (little tap here another there). It's that they have and are using the machine to automatically probe (Renshaw probing) how the parts are aligned (more in mills). We do that all of the time on our Grob's (grob 750's I think). We are currently replacing 16 year old Dixie's with brand new Grob's. Why? Because cnc machines are closer to computers.
There are also automatic tool setters (Zoller gmbh) that store tool info in a chip on the holder itself. There is stuff that it automatically changes to a different tool after predetermined tool times. Checking automatically if the tool broke or not.
On grinders its that machines are more thermally stable and repeatable. I run a machine that the castings are ~40 years old. It was last rebuilt 18 years ago. I run parts at +-. 0001 all of the time. Can I run them as consistently as a Studer that is 6 months old? Heck no. I have to re run multiple times.
There are things such as rotary dressers where your dressing diamond doesn't break down... for 4 years. Wheels where you don't have to retouch because it remembers them. There is gaging that comes in and sees where it's at and automatically adjusts. Ran a part (that used to be run on my machine) cause the others were busy. 8 in one shift. On the Studers they can run 20.
This doesn't even come close to talking about edm's of all sorts. We have a robotic sinker cell that runs 10 parts at a time that take 5 continuous weeks (~840 hours) to finish. We also have robotic cells for loading and running grinders, wire edm's, and even robotic deburring and polishing.
How Remington can run the crap they do is cause they haven't kept up with the manufacturing tech.
Rant off.
Thanks for the details. I've been in the business for 25 years, but I'm sure this stuff is news to others here.
Mills are also down to ~.0002 positional. Hardinge lathes are pretty close to that as well.
The joys of being an aerospace machinist.
Yep, but to get that ALL your support systems (metrology, workholding, TPM, tool setting, even insert selection) has to be on the ball
I used to think I had to have the actions trued but I got fucked by a gunsmith that was supposed to true my action but found out that he didn't. They shot as good as my other rifles that were trued but the bolt wasn't near as smooth as a trued action.
Here's something to consider when talking accuracy since that was the original question. Accuracy is a lot of small things that add up to something. For a smith that goal is turning out consistent performing rifles. No surprises. For the customer their getting a rifle that performs well with no hidden demons. I'm splitting split hairs here but that doesn't happen every time. When I said beauty is more than skin deep I meant there's more to getting the most out of a Remington than just truing up a few surfaces. I do the usual basics here when I true up a Remington but you reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly considering all the custom actions that are available today. What's never in any conversation is the ignition system. That being the bolt, firing pin, spring, bolt shroud and even the cocking piece. Some will rolls their eyes and say it goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. Yea but there's more to it. Remington being Remington means there are always surprises. Some by design, some by carelessness. I can dry fire a rifle and tell you something about it's personality. All will eventually shoot well but some are just stubborn. I don't like stubborn rifles. YMMV
I've got one 700 the bolt fit is so sloppy the firing pin won't strike the primer in the center, shoots OK for what it is and have not bothered to sleeve the bolt. Have another 700 that the receiver is not cylindrical, it has a taper and so when does not fit properly into the bedding block. That one took some careful bedding. Have another 700 that shoots the lights out once I canned the J-Lock and replaced the trigger. Have another that shoots very well but is rough as a cob.
My last three rifles are all built on custom actions, built by good smiths and all shoot very well with no issues.
The problem with starting with a 700 action is that you don't know what you've got till you get started. Some problems like needing a bolt sleeved are pretty much a deal breaker for me as far as blueprinting an action. Building a custom isn't as inexpensive but with a good custom receiver you are starting at a point you might not reach blueprinting a factory action.
That said, if I were to ever buy another factory rifle, it would likely be a Howa.
My last three rifles are all built on custom actions, built by good smiths and all shoot very well with no issues.
The problem with starting with a 700 action is that you don't know what you've got till you get started. Some problems like needing a bolt sleeved are pretty much a deal breaker for me as far as blueprinting an action. Building a custom isn't as inexpensive but with a good custom receiver you are starting at a point you might not reach blueprinting a factory action.
That said, if I were to ever buy another factory rifle, it would likely be a Howa.
^^^^^^^^^^
I never experienced any of that. At least not what I noticed as all the remington rifles I have and have shot are all factory. I am not OCD either so maybe i overlook some things. I am not discounting your experiences Rust as you probably know more about building and bedding rifles than me. I am a hunter and a casual steel banger and I dont bag up and shoot for small groups so I have a different perspective than many on here.
I have handled and shot several 5R rifles and they will hold there own against any other rifle and thats with factory ammo. When my barrel goes, i am not going to do anything to the action. Screw on a quality barrel and go. I do own a custom action too. The bolt lift is lighter and the action is smoother. I really only notice this in the living room and not in the field shooting.
I never experienced any of that. At least not what I noticed as all the remington rifles I have and have shot are all factory. I am not OCD either so maybe i overlook some things. I am not discounting your experiences Rust as you probably know more about building and bedding rifles than me. I am a hunter and a casual steel banger and I dont bag up and shoot for small groups so I have a different perspective than many on here.
I have handled and shot several 5R rifles and they will hold there own against any other rifle and thats with factory ammo. When my barrel goes, i am not going to do anything to the action. Screw on a quality barrel and go. I do own a custom action too. The bolt lift is lighter and the action is smoother. I really only notice this in the living room and not in the field shooting.
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I started reloading on my old mans bench abut fifty years ago, just trying to get an old Sako Vixen .222 to shoot better. Went the bedding/rebarreling/restocking route. Went through a fair number of rifles. Back about '91 I started looking at long range shooting and what it would take to be competitive. Decided to build my first full custom rifle and spent a big chunk of change. That rifle was pretty much everything I'd hoped for. Which is when I started looking real close at my factory and rebuilt factory rifles. They all shot well enough and with handloads shot even better, but they all had more than just cosmetic flaws. But that was comparing them to a carefully built fully custom rifle for 1,000 yard competition.
So when I cast a very critical eye towards my 700s, to be fair it is an apples and oranges comparison.
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