Trying to decide on a new rifle

[Gumberculies563]

Hi all,
I am interested in a new rifle caliber. Ideally I want it to be accurate (sub MOA from the rifle, my skills are a bit rusty so the rifle will out shoot me for a while) out to 1,000 yards and be big enough (do most people still use the Energy to determine if the round has the potential to be an ethical kill or have we moved on to a different standard?) to ethically kill out to about 500 - 700 yards. Any farther than that and the animal has to much time between my squeezing the trigger and the bullet getting to them for me to feel comfortable taking the shot. With the elusive paper or steel target, they are much slower and I feel comfortable with the time of flight.
I am currently looking at either the 6.5 Creedmoor or the 7mm-08, but I am not set on either one, a lighter recoil is important my wife is small and so are my two sons (they however will grow, she not so much). I don't mind if is is a little on the heavy side (read under 10 pounds) even though this will be partly a hunting rifle. I will be carrying it to the tree stand and using supports for long shots, the rest of the time it would be moved from the vehicle to the bench. I would like to keep it in semi-auto since I am left handed and everyone else is right handed. other than that I have no real preference. I would like it to be build as opposed to bought, that is partly so I can spread out the cost over a couple of months and keep the wife happy and partly so I can choose the parts I want and not have a huge pile of cast off parts (I would say to also keep costs down, but we all know this way will cost more). As you can see I have been out of the hunting and shooting world for a bit, so you might need to break some of the newer terms down Barney style for me.
So learned experts, thoughts, ideas, ponderings, musings, bad jokes? Thanks all.

 

[j741]

I wouldn't use 6.5CM for huntimg at 500+ yards. Sure, some people will say its just fine. But if you want that distance and confidence then look at a 300 WM, 300 PRC, or even 300 Norma.

 

[The DFC]

In summation-you want an inexpensive sub moa semi-auto light recoiling 500yd+ hunting rifle. Not sure all of those attributes exist at the same time.

 

[Gumberculies563]

In summation-you want an inexpensive sub moa semi-auto light recoiling 500yd+ hunting rifle. Not sure all of those attributes exist at the same time.

Not nessessarily inexpensive. I don't mind paying for the quality especially if I am building it, since I can spend a couple hundred here and there and over a 3 - 6 month period have the rifle completed. I would like to keep the costs down, mainly because it is a hobby for me. If at the end I have spent 2K or more on the rifle I will have no issues with it (that is not including the optic). If however I am going to pay that much all at once, that will be a harder sell to the wife. I am actually thinking the light recoil and 1K is going to be the issue.

 

[Gumberculies563]

I wouldn't use 6.5CM for hunting at 500+ yards. Sure, some people will say its just fine. But if you want that distance and confidence then look at a 300 WM, 300 PRC, or even 300 Norma.

I have read some good things about the Creedmoor, I have also heard that they really are just a paper puncher and steel ringer. It does seem that the 6.5 Creedmoor bullet weights are on the lighter end of the two I was looking at, not sure how much that matters at the point of impact other than penetration, the expansion is more important. From what I can tell the 7mm-08 has a slight (around 100 FPS) advantage over the 6.5 Creedmoor. I will deffinately have to look into those other callibers. Thanks

 

[The DFC]

Sure-I just meant you're going to have to prioritize and weight your attributes and I agree the light recoil and distance will be the issue. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know-it will be more for people posting suggestions and info in this thread.

I don't really have much to add other than it would seem the ar15 platform would suit you-and now with more calibers being introduced-224valkyrie, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 etc would check all the boxes other than the 500yd+ hunting-but I don't hunt past 100yd and others here may.

 

[Gumberculies563]

Sure-I just meant you're going to have to prioritize and weight your attributes and I agree the light recoil and distance will be the issue. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know-it will be more for people posting suggestions and info in this thread.

I don't really have much to add other than it would seem the ar15 platform would suit you-and now with more calibers being introduced-224valkyrie, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 etc would check all the boxes other than the 500yd+ hunting-but I don't hunt past 100yd and others here may.

Sorry if I came across as defensive, I didn't mean to. Honestly the only time I would be using this to hunt past 150 yards would be when I go back west for family hunts. Here in central Tennessee there are not a lot of 500 yard open areas for hunting. The gun safes are getting full and the wife has made noises about thinning down the collection. So we are looking at getting rid of a couple of rifles and I am hoping (not super optimistic) that I can find a caliber that will do what I currently have 2 rifles for. In reality I will probably give up on a light recoil and accept a medium recoil with a limbsaver to get the longer range paper puncher and the 500 yard ethical kill. I do reload so that can help offset the cost of ammo. I do appreciate your honesty and input

 

[The DFC]

Do you consider 6.5cm a light or medium recoil? I guess I'd put it in between and .308 would be medium for me.

 

[bfoosh006]

I have read some good things about the Creedmoor, I have also heard that they really are just a paper puncher and steel ringer. It does seem that the 6.5 Creedmoor bullet weights are on the lighter end of the two I was looking at, not sure how much that matters at the point of impact other than penetration, the expansion is more important. From what I can tell the 7mm-08 has a slight (around 100 FPS) advantage over the 6.5 Creedmoor. I will deffinately have to look into those other callibers. Thanks

Personally, I think the 6.5CM would be a very good performer.. IF there were more accurate hunting bullets in factory ammo for it. Most of the available ammo is Match bullets. And those match bullets really aren't designed to be used for hunting.

And, IMHO, some of the current hunting bullets lack precision, and decent ballistics ( Fed. Fusion, Hornady spire points )

On a side note... Sierra is bringing out the their GameChanger bullet in factory ammo... Sierra claims t to be quite accurate with a thicker jacket, poly tipped hunting oriented design. ( we shall see.. )

The 6.5CM is basically a 6.5 Swede altered to function from a AR platform, and the 6.5 Swede does pretty danged good.... so I do have hopes for it.

 

[Jsp556]

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/1232/? $305

https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft-6-5-creedmoor-bolt-carrier-group-black-nitride/ $139
Or
https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft-6-5-creedmoor-bolt-carrier-group-black-nitride/ $179 dual ejector

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-lower-parts-kit $74

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-carbine-buffer-kit $64

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/750-lo-pro-gas-block $29

https://faxonfirearms.com/ar-gas-tube-rifle-length/ $17

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ar308-charging-handle $29


https://www.jsesurplus.com/MEGAMEGALITHICMTS-400V5QUADRAILRIFLED/CBYMFG.aspx $463

https://www.jsesurplus.com/MegaArmsMaten308StrippedLower308-0550-HA.aspx $218

Total
Mega Megalithic build $1378

You’re welcome.

ETA: if prices haven’t changed. Add trigger and stock of choice

 

[Jsp556]

You could do a Larue UU kit for around $1500 as well.

 

[Gumberculies563]

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/view/product/1232/? $305

https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft-6-5-creedmoor-bolt-carrier-group-black-nitride/ $139
Or
https://www.armorally.com/shop/toolcraft-6-5-creedmoor-bolt-carrier-group-black-nitride/ $179 dual ejector

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-lower-parts-kit $74

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m5-308-carbine-buffer-kit $64

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/750-lo-pro-gas-block $29

https://faxonfirearms.com/ar-gas-tube-rifle-length/ $17

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ar308-charging-handle $29


https://www.jsesurplus.com/MEGAMEGALITHICMTS-400V5QUADRAILRIFLED/CBYMFG.aspx $463

https://www.jsesurplus.com/MegaArmsMaten308StrippedLower308-0550-HA.aspx $218

Total
Mega Megalithic build $1378

You’re welcome.

ETA: if prices haven’t changed. Add trigger and stock of choice

Thanks for the list. It does seem that the Creedmoor is the preferred choice.

 

[Gumberculies563]

Do you consider 6.5cm a light or medium recoil? I guess I'd put it in between and .308 would be medium for me.

That is an excelent point and one had had not really put much thought into. How do I define light, medium and heavy recoil? From the 1 6.5 Creedmoor I shot it felt like a lightish recoil more than the 223 but nothing bad. It did have a brake on it so that could have been a factor. 308 is not a huge recoil but also not one I want to shoot 100 rounds through (not sure how often I would be shooting 100 rounds on one day however). So to answer your question I would say the 308 recoil would be about as "heavy" as I would want. I can add a limbsaver assuming the pull length is short enough so my son can properly shoulder the rifle and long enough so I can also (the wife is in between us in size). While I am not a huge fan of brakes, that is anotheroption to help with the recoil should we end up with a caliber that has heavy recoil. Thanks

 

[DJL2]

Between the 6.5 CM and 7mm-08 the recoil will be very similar - you’d need a well calibrated shoulder to tell the difference and running a muzzle brake on either will make it fairly inconsequential for even a newer, younger shooter.

Performance on game favors the 7mm bore size in general, but the 7mm-08 from an AR is not ideal. In practical terms, you’re unlikely to see much of a benefit. At close range (e.g. in TN), say 200 yds or so (MV dependent) - the 6.5 CM w/ a 120 Barnes TTSX or Hornady GMX is likely to accomplish anything you need done. You could also shoot a Nosler Partition or Hornady SST with similarly excellent results at close-ish ranges on deer/medium bodied big game. The 6.5mm bore has been laying big game low since the 1800s...

Surely, a 6.5 CM that handles your local hunting and target shooting to 1000 yds takes at least a couple guns out of your safe? The parts list above will get you there as will the LaRue UU kit.

Now, hold onto your seat, if you’re hunting at extended range, you might actually want to use a match bullet. What?! Heresy! No, not at all. First, you and the rifle must be able to actually make the shot. As John Lazzeroni observed waaaaaay before it was cool, if you can’t make the shot, terminal performance doesn’t matter (he made ultra mags and short actions mags way before it was cool too). Second, as the bullet loses energy and velocity, choosing a match bullet that fragments predictably (e.g. ELD-M) is arguably more effective for reliably anchoring game.

 

[Gumberculies563]

Between the 6.5 CM and 7mm-08 the recoil will be very similar - you’d need a well calibrated shoulder to tell the difference and running a muzzle brake on either will make it fairly inconsequential for even a newer, younger shooter.

Performance on game favors the 7mm bore size in general, but the 7mm-08 from an AR is not ideal. In practical terms, you’re unlikely to see much of a benefit. At close range (e.g. in TN), say 200 yds or so (MV dependent) - the 6.5 CM w/ a 120 Barnes TTSX or Hornady GMX is likely to accomplish anything you need done. You could also shoot a Nosler Partition or Hornady SST with similarly excellent results at close-ish ranges on deer/medium bodied big game. The 6.5mm bore has been laying big game low since the 1800s...

Surely, a 6.5 CM that handles your local hunting and target shooting to 1000 yds takes at least a couple guns out of your safe? The parts list above will get you there as will the LaRue UU kit.

Now, hold onto your seat, if you’re hunting at extended range, you might actually want to use a match bullet. What?! Heresy! No, not at all. First, you and the rifle must be able to actually make the shot. As John Lazzeroni observed waaaaaay before it was cool, if you can’t make the shot, terminal performance doesn’t matter (he made ultra mags and short actions mags way before it was cool too). Second, as the bullet loses energy and velocity, choosing a match bullet that fragments predictably (e.g. ELD-M) is arguably more effective for reliably anchoring game.

Your comment about the AR platform not being ideal, is that due to the excess wiggle in a semiauto or the platform itself? The 6.5 is sounding better all the time, I do keep thinking about the heavier bullet having better terminal performance. But you do make a good point, if I can't hit the critter the bullets terminal performance means nothing. I am a bit hesitant to use a match bullet on game. I am not sure how well they would expand (if any) or fragment. However going through a shoulder bone shouldn't be an issue. I might have to break down and do some ballistics tests, watch some youtube ballistics test and make a decision. While I have not looked very hard at them, what are your thoughts on a 28 nosler? I have looked only at their ballistics and not on any actual rifles for them (I might need to go to a more traditional rifle, which is no real issue).
Oh, the joys of deciding on a new firearm and firearm build!!

 

[schlaiek]

I've played around with some Hornady ELDX handloads and they don't give up much to their match cousins out to 600 yards.

regarding "wiggle" and the AR platform. if you have a properly built AR there should be no wiggle (without using an accuwedge). even reasonably priced matched upper & lower (Aero for example) should offer as solid a rifle as an off the rack bolt gun imo...

 

[VP47PPC]

some of the current hunting bullets lack precision, and decent ballistics ( Fed. Fusion, Hornady spire points )

I have several rifles that shoot Fusion ammo very well. My off the shelf MOD 70's shoot 270 and 243 ammo sub MOA. In fact it has been the better shooting factory ammo in those rifles. There is nothing sexy about Fusion, won't have the highest BC or hottest MV, what I find is you get very good accuracy, bonded BT bullet and reasonable price.

 

[brianf]

im not the most versed with a ar platform but im not sure you will find what you are looking for.

i think i read the whole thread but IMO 6.5 creedmore and 700 yard ethical kill, only go together if you are hitting prairie dogs.

you will need to step it up a little in the recoil department.

to help my kids or my nephews with recoil i have a gatorade bottle that i rigged up with a old scope mount. we get to where we are going to shoot and i fill it with dirt and rocks. stick it on the bottom rail and its add a few pounds to the rifle.

if you go the less tactical route you can get a browning BAR (father has one).

about the weight you are looking for
semi auto, helps the recoil
can get any useful caliber 7mm mag 30-06 300wm
the shoot about 1-1.5 MOA with factory ammo.

 

[DJL2]

Your comment about the AR platform not being ideal, is that due to the excess wiggle in a semiauto or the platform itself? The 6.5 is sounding better all the time, I do keep thinking about the heavier bullet having better terminal performance. But you do make a good point, if I can't hit the critter the bullets terminal performance means nothing. I am a bit hesitant to use a match bullet on game. I am not sure how well they would expand (if any) or fragment. However going through a shoulder bone shouldn't be an issue. I might have to break down and do some ballistics tests, watch some youtube ballistics test and make a decision. While I have not looked very hard at them, what are your thoughts on a 28 nosler? I have looked only at their ballistics and not on any actual rifles for them (I might need to go to a more traditional rifle, which is no real issue).
Oh, the joys of deciding on a new firearm and firearm build!!

It might just be me, but I enjoy the focus and direction that comes with the search - call me weird.

I wasn't thinking about a weakness of the AR-10 per se, but rather the .308 parent case in the AR-10/short action format. You'll find plenty of long range aficionados that swear by 162/168/180 gn 7mm projectiles. You can certainly run these in a 7mm-08 AR-10, but seating depth and magazine length are going to come into play. The .260 Remington is similar which helped birth the 6.5 CM.

It's an optimization issue more than anything else - the 7mm-08 is likely the better hunting choice inside 600 yards, but the 6.5 CM is the better choice to shoot out to 1000+ yds.

As you research, consider checking out www.ballisticstudies.com.

 

[Gumberculies563]

im not the most versed with a ar platform but im not sure you will find what you are looking for.

i think i read the whole thread but IMO 6.5 creedmore and 700 yard ethical kill, only go together if you are hitting prairie dogs.

you will need to step it up a little in the recoil department.

to help my kids or my nephews with recoil i have a gatorade bottle that i rigged up with a old scope mount. we get to where we are going to shoot and i fill it with dirt and rocks. stick it on the bottom rail and its add a few pounds to the rifle.

if you go the less tactical route you can get a browning BAR (father has one).

about the weight you are looking for
semi auto, helps the recoil
can get any useful caliber 7mm mag 30-06 300wm
the shoot about 1-1.5 MOA with factory ammo.

I hadn't even though about adding weight to the handgaurds. Thanks!! I do think my requirements are shifting a bit. The recoil, I think, can be helped with a limbsaver or similar on the buttstock (part of why I wanted an AR platform , 3 different people shooting the rifle) and with your idea of adding the weight to soak up some recoil I can look at more calibers. With most of the longer range hunting being on mule deer and elk (if I draw a tag in Arizona, or we are in Montana or Wyoming) I do want enough bullet to be ethical (assuming I do my part on shot placement). Your point about the 6.5 creedmoor being only a varmint killer at more than 500 - 600 yards is something I have also read, and looking at the ballistics I am not sure it is wrong. Thanks again for your thoughts and time.

 

[Gumberculies563]

It might just be me, but I enjoy the focus and direction that comes with the search - call me weird.

I wasn't thinking about a weakness of the AR-10 per se, but rather the .308 parent case in the AR-10/short action format. You'll find plenty of long range aficionados that swear by 162/168/180 gn 7mm projectiles. You can certainly run these in a 7mm-08 AR-10, but seating depth and magazine length are going to come into play. The .260 Remington is similar which helped birth the 6.5 CM.

It's an optimization issue more than anything else - the 7mm-08 is likely the better hunting choice inside 600 yards, but the 6.5 CM is the better choice to shoot out to 1000+ yds.

As you research, consider checking out www.ballisticstudies.com.

I agree that the research into a new rifle or caliber is fun. I can be frustrating when you think you have it dialed in and discover you missed something. As I research this project I think you might be right. Either I will have a rifle that can be ethical at 500 yards or I can have one that is good at 1k targets. I think if given that choice it would be the ethical kill. I can always practice at the 1k or 500 yards but keep the hunting distances down. You do bring up a great point about the seating depth in the AR platform. I will definitely have to look into that. Thanks.
P.S. Thanks for the link I have a feeling I will be spending some time reading the articles. Thanks

 

[brianf]

I hadn't even though about adding weight to the handgaurds. Thanks!! I do think my requirements are shifting a bit. The recoil, I think, can be helped with a limbsaver or similar on the buttstock (part of why I wanted an AR platform , 3 different people shooting the rifle) and with your idea of adding the weight to soak up some recoil I can look at more calibers. With most of the longer range hunting being on mule deer and elk (if I draw a tag in Arizona, or we are in Montana or Wyoming) I do want enough bullet to be ethical (assuming I do my part on shot placement). Your point about the 6.5 creedmoor being only a varmint killer at more than 500 - 600 yards is something I have also read, and looking at the ballistics I am not sure it is wrong. Thanks again for your thoughts and time.

just want to add...because snipers hide became 6.5 creedmore hide a few years ago:

yes a 6.5 creed will kill animals and im sure several people will send pics of of all kids of large animals killed at 857 yards with a 18" barrel and a suppressor.

but a ethical kill at that range needs more energy IMO....and ive taken a few large animals and been around some kills over the years.

 

[DJL2]

The thing about hunting is that you need the discipline and honesty to know when NOT to shoot...no matter what caliber you run (or arrow, spear, whatever). "A man's got to know his limitations...and those of the projectile he hunts with." Slightly amended. Virtually any animal out there has been killed with a "too small" caliber and wounded with a "big enough" caliber.

The consideration of shooter skill, conditions and wounding potential at range is a non-traditional problem in the sense that very few calibers in common use pack the punch to meet "traditional" standards once you extend the range. Even big cases and sleek bullets lose to drag at some point.

 

[bfoosh006]

Recoil wise... IMHO, you can drastically alter the perceived recoil impulse with a Adj. GB on a Large Frame AR.

I frequently use the fire hose v. garden hose as an example.

Both are the same pressure, the fire house just has considerably more volume of pressure.

And using an Adj. GB to restrict that "flow" can make a big difference.

Just adding 2 cents worth of input.

 

[Gumberculies563]

So after some discussions, research and looking over a budget...It looks like I will be converting my Ruger Precision Rifle over to 7MM-08. While this can reach the 1K mark for target hunting past about 500 yards is iffy (to my mind,). So I will have to limit myself to 400 yards or so, and to be honest that is pleanty far in my mind for an ethical kill. I am not as confident in my skills as I once was. I have found a Barrel, However I am not able to find a 308 bolt for the rifle. I know I can probably call up ruger's customer service and order one directly from them, I was just hoping to be able to price shop some. Does anyone know of a place to get the bolt assembly? or just a 308 bolt face? Some days my Google Fu is weak. Thank you all for all of your help, ideas and thoughts!

 

[hlee]

Just for some perspective, my RPR weighs 17lbs, with a loaded mag. That's in 6.5creedmoor, with a magpul PRS stock, and a vortex razor 5-20x50 scope. Nice rifle, very accurate, NOT light. I think you'll have a hard time getting it under 10lbs.

 

[Gumberculies563]

Just for some perspective, my RPR weighs 17lbs, with a loaded mag. That's in 6.5creedmoor, with a magpul PRS stock, and a vortex razor 5-20x50 scope. Nice rifle, very accurate, NOT light. I think you'll have a hard time getting it under 10lbs.

That was one of my arguments to building from the ground up - the RPR I have is also in 6.5 (fortunately? the barrel is coming to the end of its life as the groups are starting to open up a little.) and like you said it is heavy. For hunting it will only be used a couple of times a year so it "shouldn't" be to bad (I say this now, not after a day of hiking around the high desert with it ). The rest of the time it will be on a bench, so a walk of maybe 10 yards or so.

 

[Gumberculies563]

Woops. I would like to apologize for asking a dumb question. I did not do my part and look into the differences in bolt faces for a 6.5 creedmoor to a 7mm-08. There is none. So to make my switch all I need is a new barrel (maybe a new barrel nut), a set of go and no-go gauges. I might get a different handguard later on.