Gold is a no brainer
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A doctor friend of mine believed in Y2K apocalypse, and liquidated all his wealth into gold in 1999 @ about $400/oz. Tons of people were dumping gold right after that and he kept buying. He sold most of it in 2011 when it hit $2000+.
I think that it humorous that gold hoarders aschew a fiat money as worthless, then tell you how much gold is worth in dollars...
Gold only has value because someone else wants it. Like baseball cards or beanie babies.
Gold only has value because someone else wants it. Like baseball cards or beanie babies.
Gold; up 4x from a few years ago. Rollercoaster ride though.
Real estate; up 3.5x from a few years ago. Less of a rollercoaster, but rollercoaster nevertheless.
Ammo/reloading components; up 4x from a few years ago. I don't want to admit it has been a rollercoaster at times, but it has.
Paper money (buying power); down 50 % from a few years ago. Rollercoaster ride.....all downhill.
I know where I am (and am not) investing........If you were to use gold, real estate or ammo as a benchmark, any currency, including US Dollars really sucks.
Real estate; up 3.5x from a few years ago. Less of a rollercoaster, but rollercoaster nevertheless.
Ammo/reloading components; up 4x from a few years ago. I don't want to admit it has been a rollercoaster at times, but it has.
Paper money (buying power); down 50 % from a few years ago. Rollercoaster ride.....all downhill.
I know where I am (and am not) investing........If you were to use gold, real estate or ammo as a benchmark, any currency, including US Dollars really sucks.
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It's the same with everything..... The difference between baseball cards and beanie babies is that gold has been valued for ever.
Currencies come and currencies go, ( every one of them has eventually collapsed ) but gold always holds it's value.
Gold and silver paper prices are highly manipulated by the banks. They hate people holding gold and silver, yet they crave it for themselves.
The issue with holding physical gold and silver is it never pays a dividend, never has a two for one split and you have to find a buyer who is likely to pay slightly less than market.
If you don't hold physical gold you don't own it.
Yeah I get it, there are upsides. Cost to hold is low to zero. No broker fees. I like dividends. In the past stock splits were more common, which can really result in good profit. But capital gains always suck. I assume physical gold eliminates taxation?
I don't think you can be taxed on something the authorities don't know about.
I admit to not being as worldly as many on this board, but I have never been to a store that sold anything listed in units/oz of gold. Now I know (because I watch "Gold Rush") that there are some very specific local economies that do use this measurement, but in my area they are exceedingly rare- ie they do not exist to my knowledge. What can I buy with 10 grams of gold? I haven't tried it, but I'd wager it is significantly less than a soda and a candy bar- like nothing.
Excellent, a conversion. Whether it be MOA to MRAD, Inches to centimeters, or ounces of gold to something of actual value, conversions are what make the world go 'round. Wait, "85 ounces of silver." I can't work with... Well, maybe I can. As it happens, I have a few silver eagles laying around the house somewhere. They are each one troy ounce, and are each 99.9% pure silver. What can I buy with an ounce of silver? Well, just like gold, I've never seen anything listed in units/ounce of silver. But, there is a "silver lining," the silver eagles tell me right there on the coin how much they are worth. Each is worth $1US. Awesome. One ounce of gold is worth $85US.
Awe shit, I must have messed up the conversion above. Let me see if I can work this out. Ok, one ounce of gold is worth $1319.5US. Sweet! Wait, the US dollar is a FIAT CURRENCY. It's not backed by ANYTHING OF VALUE except the good word of the US government. The dollar is worthless. We all know it. That's why you are all buying gold. So, if the dollar is worth 0, and one ounce of gold is worth $1319.5... Wait... $1319.5 x 0 = ... 0. FUCK!
Ok, I'm being a bit tongue in cheek. But, my larger point is that "intrinsic value" is a myth. The idea of intrinsic value is that something has value because it exists- even in the absence of anyone that can ascribe to that item a value.
What are the properties of gold? It is highly malleable, highly ductile, very dense, highly conductive, essentially inert, has a relatively low melting point, and is relatively rare. Most of these properties make gold unusually well suited to one thing in particular- coinage. A low melting point combined with high malleability and ductility makes gold well suited for making coins (especially at the dawn of modern man's understanding of metal working)- it is hard to make coins when you can't stamp them with your crest, or can't get he material to melt into a blank mold, or can not extract it from an ore. It is essentially inert- you don't want your currency to rust away. Relative rarity means that some upstart group can't easily tank your economy by flooding the market with new coins. Whaaa? Yes, 'precious metals" are the original fiat currencies. They are easily transported and traded, stand in for the value of real goods, and are not easily destroyed. (Gold has also found uses in electronics and as ornamentation, but outside of that is essentially useless. Ok, not totally useless. I read a quote one time by a bullet manufacturer- when asked if they could use anything other than lead for bullets "We'd use gold, if it weren't so expensive...)
Sometime right after the dawn of civilization, some old guy looked around and said "All of this is mine. How do I keep it that way? I need to devalue everyone else's shit and make my shit the only shit worth a shit. But, how?... I'll make everyone trade in this useless metal, the source of which I control."
Excellent, a conversion. Whether it be MOA to MRAD, Inches to centimeters, or ounces of gold to something of actual value, conversions are what make the world go 'round. Wait, "85 ounces of silver." I can't work with... Well, maybe I can. As it happens, I have a few silver eagles laying around the house somewhere. They are each one troy ounce, and are each 99.9% pure silver. What can I buy with an ounce of silver? Well, just like gold, I've never seen anything listed in units/ounce of silver. But, there is a "silver lining," the silver eagles tell me right there on the coin how much they are worth. Each is worth $1US. Awesome. One ounce of gold is worth $85US.
Awe shit, I must have messed up the conversion above. Let me see if I can work this out. Ok, one ounce of gold is worth $1319.5US. Sweet! Wait, the US dollar is a FIAT CURRENCY. It's not backed by ANYTHING OF VALUE except the good word of the US government. The dollar is worthless. We all know it. That's why you are all buying gold. So, if the dollar is worth 0, and one ounce of gold is worth $1319.5... Wait... $1319.5 x 0 = ... 0. FUCK!
Ok, I'm being a bit tongue in cheek. But, my larger point is that "intrinsic value" is a myth. The idea of intrinsic value is that something has value because it exists- even in the absence of anyone that can ascribe to that item a value.
What are the properties of gold? It is highly malleable, highly ductile, very dense, highly conductive, essentially inert, has a relatively low melting point, and is relatively rare. Most of these properties make gold unusually well suited to one thing in particular- coinage. A low melting point combined with high malleability and ductility makes gold well suited for making coins (especially at the dawn of modern man's understanding of metal working)- it is hard to make coins when you can't stamp them with your crest, or can't get he material to melt into a blank mold, or can not extract it from an ore. It is essentially inert- you don't want your currency to rust away. Relative rarity means that some upstart group can't easily tank your economy by flooding the market with new coins. Whaaa? Yes, 'precious metals" are the original fiat currencies. They are easily transported and traded, stand in for the value of real goods, and are not easily destroyed. (Gold has also found uses in electronics and as ornamentation, but outside of that is essentially useless. Ok, not totally useless. I read a quote one time by a bullet manufacturer- when asked if they could use anything other than lead for bullets "We'd use gold, if it weren't so expensive...)
Sometime right after the dawn of civilization, some old guy looked around and said "All of this is mine. How do I keep it that way? I need to devalue everyone else's shit and make my shit the only shit worth a shit. But, how?... I'll make everyone trade in this useless metal, the source of which I control."
Fiat currency is backed only by trust, the banks around the world know it's a con, that's why they hoard gold.
I believe all the gold ever mined would fit into a cube 20 m x 20 m x 20 m. It's rare and always valuable.
Silver comes out of the ground at approximately 15 ounces for every one ounce of gold. That's why it's a bargain at 85 to one.
It makes no difference what things are priced in as long as gold and silver is convertible, I think you know that. I can't understand why you are acting as if you are stupid.
I believe all the gold ever mined would fit into a cube 20 m x 20 m x 20 m. It's rare and always valuable.
Silver comes out of the ground at approximately 15 ounces for every one ounce of gold. That's why it's a bargain at 85 to one.
It makes no difference what things are priced in as long as gold and silver is convertible, I think you know that. I can't understand why you are acting as if you are stupid.
The Mrs and I once took a flight to Europe with 1500 silver ounces in Canadian maple leaves in our hand luggage, it was a nightmare. I will never do it again.
Silver compliments gold, it's fine in small quantities.
Rimfire ammo is at rock bottom prices, with a case of 5000 at $140 being some of the cheapest prices we've seen in years. Same goes for 5.56 ball, you can get for around $0.26/rd right now, although I prefer good'ol green tip at $300/case of 1k. After the dems steal the 2020 election (or Mueller/et al indict Trump), it will outpace gold by far. After the shit show that follows, gold coins will be pretty far down the list of needs.
Investments wise, gold and other precious metals are good of course, but they're far from the end all-be all.
Investments wise, gold and other precious metals are good of course, but they're far from the end all-be all.
Precious metals are what you get when you have everything you need and want. They are wealth preservation, nothing else.
There is a possibility the price could rise dramatically, that would be great but I'm not relying on it.
I don't know about shtf, but if it's convertible why would he not be able to get a room at the express and a ribeye with it ?
So what you're saying is buying precious metals is conditional upon already having achieved wealthy status and have no other needs. That isn't exactly a "no-brainer" (indicating it applies to everyone) as you title your thread, that's a "Hey guys, if you blah blah blah blah blah, then blah blah blah blah, and blah blah blah buy gold."
But when I read between the lines I see what you're really saying is you think this is like Instagram and you're simply attention whoring with your pics of gold, similar to your other threads. Got it.
A ribeye isn't priced in any quantity of gold.
I can't get a soda and a candy bar for 100 milligrams of gold, nor can I buy 20 gallons of gas for 1 gram of gold.
I can't go into the local super market and give the cashier a gold nugget and expect to walk out with any food.
$100 gold equivalent is less valuable than $100 cash because you can't actually buy anything with gold.
Wait, let me make sure. Has anyone here ever bought a loaf of bread or a jug of milk with gold, in the lower 48, in the past 20 years?
I can't get a soda and a candy bar for 100 milligrams of gold, nor can I buy 20 gallons of gas for 1 gram of gold.
I can't go into the local super market and give the cashier a gold nugget and expect to walk out with any food.
$100 gold equivalent is less valuable than $100 cash because you can't actually buy anything with gold.
Wait, let me make sure. Has anyone here ever bought a loaf of bread or a jug of milk with gold, in the lower 48, in the past 20 years?
The value of gold has stayed the same. It is the dollar that fluctuates. In the 1800s you could buy a colt peacemaker for a gold coin. If you go look at the price of a new colt peacemaker it is almost identical to what the price of one gold coin is.
Gold and silver are a great way to preserve some wealth and move it from one stable society, through bad times / collapse, and then have it again when the next stable society comes along.
During an actual crazy event / crazy times / collapse, usually the actual commodities, weapons, ammunition, medicine & food are worth way more.
During an actual crazy event / crazy times / collapse, usually the actual commodities, weapons, ammunition, medicine & food are worth way more.
What I am really saying is gold is a no brainer when compared in to investing in the stock market, as shown by the graph I posted. In case you did not know many people invest in the stock market but are unaware of the performance of gold.... But you knew that all along right. LMAO
A ribeye is not priced in gold because people still have faith in the $.... That does not stop buying a ribeye using gold by converting it into dollars.
And your pictures of "your" gold go into the databanks at the NSA so one day when the communists run out of cash or need gold, they know who to come try to grab it from.
Don't think it won't happen, people didn't think it would happen either when one day the Socialist Dictator FDR needed gold to fund his social programs and abruptly decreed that all your gold now belonged to the government & turn it in or we will send you to jail, and we are going and checking any bank deposit boxes for some just to be sure & made it illegal to have gold coins (or too much gold jewelry for that matter)
Oh he gave them a pittance for it, then immediately devalued the currency by half.....
Of course people then like today were a bunch of government worshiping idiots and went along with it "for the public good".
Ok, let's assume you're at The Sizzler, just finishing whatever passes for a ribeye steak there. You down the dregs of the glass of "box wine" just as the check arrived. You look, knowingly, at your dinner date and pull out a sheet of neatly perforated gold foil. She, unaware of the conversion looks back at you; not quisically but something between WTF and abject horror. You mouth to her "Don't worry, it's convertible..."
Now what? I've never purchased anything with gold.
Do I need to carry a drug scale? Do they have an assayer on staff to certify the purity? Is it spot price, or should I expect to pay above that?
And, if I need to convert back to dollars to make the purchase, isn't it easier to carry money that folds?
You mean the chart that conveniently leaves off the real history of gold valuation with inflation adjustments?
Gold had its nuts crushed worse than the NYSE in '29. It took an 85% hit in the '80s, so don't pretend it's impervious to market fluctuations. Gold has performed well, sure, but once the Chinese (the ones buying it all up right now) take a recession and sell it all off, it's going to take another serious kick in the nuts.
"No brainers" with hefty risks are not no brainers, it's duping those who don't know the whole story.
Anyone with half a brain would realise they need to change the gold for fiat beforehand. If the $ were to collapse you can bet your life everyone would be well aware of the value of gold and silver.
You mean the chart that conveniently leaves off the real history of gold valuation with inflation adjustments?
Gold had its nuts crushed worse than the NYSE in '29. It took an 85% hit in the '80s, so don't pretend it's impervious to market fluctuations. Gold has performed well, sure, but once the Chinese (the ones buying it all up right now) take a recession and sell it all off, it's going to take another serious kick in the nuts.
"No brainers" with hefty risks are not no brainers, it's duping those who don't know the whole story.
Find a gold chart showing a comparison with the S&P, then it will make more sense.
I have only owned precious metals since 2005, I know they have risen nicely since then. I also know gold and silver has been a store of value for thousands of years, I can see nothing that will change that.
Buy precious metals!
Stock up on lead, copper and brass!?
Stock up on lead, copper and brass!?
Why you prefer green tips over m193? Thought they only penetrated helmets better?
Ok.
First, no disrespect intended, but use an up to date chart. I hate it when people use an out of date charts and then refer to them for reference. Your price shown is 1/4 (roughly) current spot. So if, as your chart says, I can buy it at 462 then hell yes it’s a no brainer. At 1320, not so much.
You obviously were not around prior to the Hunt Bros runup. For that matter probably not for the $50 oz silverto below $10 aftermath either.
If you’re a hard money guy, preppier, end of the economies type then certainly precious metals are ok. Silver more so then gold as it has more commercial applications than gold.
On the not being taxed on it comment. True. It is tax deferred but try selling a bunch without paying taxes. Other than a SHTF scenario, the revenue service of one type or another (I believe you’re Canadian?)is going to come knocking. Tax avoidance is a strategy, tax evasion puts you in prison.
As inflation protection it does very well. Easy way to see if gold is at inflation adjusted parity. (At least my way) In the time of the Pharaohs 1 ounce of gold bought 300 loaves of bread. Price of bread today X 300=.
Next, I noticed you referred to one of the fellows here with a “don’t be stupid” remark. Yet right behind that you mention you and your spouse flew to Europe with 1500 silver rounds in your luggage and also mentioned it was a hassle. Really? No name calling but that jaunt was fraught with disaster from go.Unless you were headed to Lichtenstein to do a little laundering. Geez. Next time consider FedEx and a Cashiers Check. Might be a hair easier.
Lastly, you are obviously a market fundamentalist not a technician. The long term chart has a nasty little downtrend line off the two tops that may be an issue in the intermediate term.
Redmanss has the right of it in my opinion. Ammo is going to increase in value especially in a SHTF scenario. In a SHTF scenario, the guy with the ammo is going to take your physical gold and silver.
First, no disrespect intended, but use an up to date chart. I hate it when people use an out of date charts and then refer to them for reference. Your price shown is 1/4 (roughly) current spot. So if, as your chart says, I can buy it at 462 then hell yes it’s a no brainer. At 1320, not so much.
You obviously were not around prior to the Hunt Bros runup. For that matter probably not for the $50 oz silverto below $10 aftermath either.
If you’re a hard money guy, preppier, end of the economies type then certainly precious metals are ok. Silver more so then gold as it has more commercial applications than gold.
On the not being taxed on it comment. True. It is tax deferred but try selling a bunch without paying taxes. Other than a SHTF scenario, the revenue service of one type or another (I believe you’re Canadian?)is going to come knocking. Tax avoidance is a strategy, tax evasion puts you in prison.
As inflation protection it does very well. Easy way to see if gold is at inflation adjusted parity. (At least my way) In the time of the Pharaohs 1 ounce of gold bought 300 loaves of bread. Price of bread today X 300=.
Next, I noticed you referred to one of the fellows here with a “don’t be stupid” remark. Yet right behind that you mention you and your spouse flew to Europe with 1500 silver rounds in your luggage and also mentioned it was a hassle. Really? No name calling but that jaunt was fraught with disaster from go.Unless you were headed to Lichtenstein to do a little laundering. Geez. Next time consider FedEx and a Cashiers Check. Might be a hair easier.
Lastly, you are obviously a market fundamentalist not a technician. The long term chart has a nasty little downtrend line off the two tops that may be an issue in the intermediate term.
Redmanss has the right of it in my opinion. Ammo is going to increase in value especially in a SHTF scenario. In a SHTF scenario, the guy with the ammo is going to take your physical gold and silver.
Riiiight, because gold's value is such that it must be exchanged for a worthless currency before it can be used... You apparently took my set up seriously, when it was intended to demonstrate the farcical nature of your "if its convertible" statement.
More to my main point, I'd rather tie up money in stuff with utility- yes, like ammo, or food/water/fuel/shelter. No, I am NOT a prepper. You are correct, people will know EXACTLY how much gold and silver are worth when the trappings of civilization vanish. As a buyer, your gold will be worth no more than the seller says it is. As a seller, your goods will be worth no more than what the holder of a gun says they are.
When you change gold into dollars, you might as well be changing yen or rupees or yuan or pesos into dollars. The only difference between any of them (gold included) is the ease of use in an economy.
Gold is a fiat currency. It only has value when a society agrees on its value. When society breaks down so does the valuation of precious metals.
The chart I posted shows the performance of gold between 1999 and 2017 +, I belief it adequately illustrates my point.
It was not illegal to transport the silver to Europe, it was legally ours and we had paperwork to show that, we took it to Sweden to be precise. It was not a disaster, but it was hard to disguise something that heavy. The reason I took it on the planes as carry on luggage was because if I stuck it in the hold I doubt I would have seen it again. It was used it to buy a house.
I don't expect to use any gold or silver to buy food or ammo etc in a shtf scenario, I doubt a situation like that will arise... That said I don't expect my house to be destroyed either but I have insurance just in case.
No guy with ammo is going to take anything I own, it would be much easier to find a defenseless victim.
PS, I have dual Canadian / English citizenship, it's been more useful than I imagined.
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If gold were not convertible nobody would want it, truth is that it's readily convertible and recognised as real money almost everywhere in the world.
You can rest assured nobody is going to take anything from me at the point of a gun.
Gold is not a fiat currency, it can not be created out of thin air.
For starters, the cost difference between the two is nominal so I leave that as a moot point for myself. Performance wise, I've had them hold up better against mild barriers better than M193, think walls, windows and vehicle type mediums. Downrange retained velocity is hands down in favor of M855, and pairing with the 64gr M856 tracers is of course better as well. One of the biggest detractors for using the 62gr S109 is barrel twist, but I don't own anything that isn't 1:7" so not an issue for me. Just don't use it at your range's steel targets (dimples the shit out of them), that's one way to get yourself sanctioned by the board with a quickness.
For the fragmentation effect in favor of M193, that benefit doesn't outweigh all the above for my interests and it only has that benefit inside 100yds while it's moving at 3k and up, further downrange the heavier round takes over in terms of ballistics.
But just like monetary investments, don't put all your eggs in one basket. I have some of it all, including a fair and always growing amount of 77gr...
I’d vote to ban anyone caught using steel/AP ammo at my club. As far as I’m concerned that’s vandalism of our targets, and a rude fuck like that ought not be allowed to shoot with considerate people.
Just make sure that's "...using steel/AP ammo on steel targets." There's zero reason to have a blanket ban on all steel core when they're only being used on paper. Too many ranges like to do a blanket ban instead of educating members, just like the gun grabbers do against all of us legal citizens because of a few shithead criminals' actions.
I have a shit ton of 149gr M80 as well, just don't shoot them at anything but paper for ballistic verification and chronographing my MV.
I don’t disagree, but they do so much damage so fast it’s just easier to enforce a no steel core ammo ban than to try and police people. On a square range with paper targets into a berm it’s a dumb rule. If there are also steel targets or it uses a bullet trap then banning it is a lot easier than putting it on ROs to make sure no one is shooting green tips. It IS AP ammo, and it works as advertised even when it’s .22.
