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Rifle Scopes Thoughts on s&b pm2 3-20x50us

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Just sold my 5-25x56 and bought a 3-20 US with MSR reticle. It has 36 mil adjustment range (27 usable on 30 moa base). The low profile lockable dt turrets feel great and the mtc clicks feel better than on my old 5-25. Heard eyebox was unforgiving but this is untrue. Turrets seem rock solid.

I figured I seldom use over 20x. I don't see many of these scopes being used in PRS competitions (precisionrifleblog) and wonder why. Also MSR reticle (my favorite for milling) seems rare. Any thoughts? Also what are your experiences with the s&b US?
 
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While I don't have experience with the 3-20 you're using, I can tell you why you don't see them that often in PRS. Generally, the PRS folk seem to stick with a particular recipe. Majorly, Kahles optics and Bartlein barrels. Knowing what other people win with, when folks get serious they tend to go with the R&D that others have already done before them. It isn't really a bad strategy, especially considering how amazingly well the equipment works.

That being said, I can't imagine that you'd be handicapped in any way with your S&B.
 
The 3-20 US is a great package. Its a small package that offered features that no one offered at the time. It does have some recent competition from kahles in the 3-18. But when introduced it was the only scope in that size with those features.

I think one of the primary reason you don't see them in prs is price and a max mag of 20X. The majority of people paying their own way can get a 5-25 for less money and have a bit more mag. More so you can get a 7-35 ATACR for the same money.

I have one on my large frame gasser for the specific reason I have a night vision clip-on. It allows me to reach my NV focus ring easier. I admit it's still not easy to do, but it's a hair easier.

Recently I got a vudu 5-25 to try on my gasser with clip on and im not really impressed with the scope.
 
That makes sense. A lot of people seem to value high mag more than me. I use it on an AxMC for ELR and PRS as well as hunting (moose and deer). I shoot with a silencer and quickly get trouble with mirage past 16-20x, especially with .338lm.
 
I use over 20x all the time. Every match just about I’d say. Being limited to 20x is a deal breaker for me personally. I shoot the Schmidt 5-25 on my main match rifle and have no complaints. It’s also really nice to have the magnification when looking for .223 holes on paper when shooting groups etc
 
I'll say it, I recon the S&B 3-20 US is the single best 'all-rounder' optic in existence. I can't say I've owned all the alpha glass, but I've owned a lot and been behind just about every option. The US is just extremely versatile. The FOV at 3x is simply stunning, and if you're not likely to dial above 20 often (with my higher mag scopes I almost never do) then I think the US is as good as it gets in its particular class.

I've shot a lot of matches with a ATACR 4-16x42, and managed to do very well with that optic, so the 3-20 spoils me. I'm using the original MSR reticle, which is a great design, but the MSR II does appear to offer some improvements.
 
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Just sold my 5-25x56 and bought a 3-20 US with MSR reticle. It has 36 mil adjustment range (27 usable on 30 moa base). The low profile lockable dt turrets feel great and the mtc clicks feel better than on my old 5-25. Heard eyebox was unforgiving but this is untrue. Turrets seem rock solid.

I figured I seldom use over 20x. I don't see many of these scopes being used in PRS competitions (precisionrifleblog) and wonder why. Also MSR reticle (my favorite for milling) seems rare. Any thoughts? Also what are your experiences with the s&b US?

Sorry but if you've already brought one then why are you seeking justification from other people?
The choice has been made and surely you've done some homework that lead to the purchase.

AS for the scope.
I cant say anything bad about them, Msr is useable at all magnification, turrets work, mtc feels a bit weird.
(very subtle, to the point were I could probably miss it when spinning the turrets fast.)
eyebox seems fine, I cant remeber it tightening up around top magnification but maybe it does.

The only thing I find is that it is sort of middle of the road, not really short or light
and as people have said it gives up things to get there.
I'd trade for a 5-20US DT MSR if i could.
Obviously this is all my opinion though, and I can't see how you would be unhappy with it as an optic.
the logical part of me will say that it works well and will cover a lot of options for almost anyone but
I just don't really like it for some reason.
As a reference I really like a 3.5-26 Hensoldt which is almost illogical :)
 
I bought the same scope off a fellow Hide member and love it. I have it on a 18” 6.5 creedmoor and it was amazing to see my hits on a red steel target at 700 yds. First time having “alpha” grade scope so I feel very spoiled.
 
I bought the same scope off a fellow Hide member and love it. I have it on a 18” 6.5 creedmoor and it was amazing to see my hits on a red steel target at 700 yds. First time having “alpha” grade scope so I feel very spoiled.

Glad to hear you're thoroughly enjoying the 3-20 Nate!

OP, the general consensus on the Ultra Shorts is that they are truly amazing scopes for what they are - very short for their mag range and objective size. It is harder, from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint, to make ultra short scopes and even harder to make them "light" - with light being an objective term: If you compare the 3-20 Ultra Short to Vortex's Gen II 3-18 you'll see that the Schmidt is much lighter, compare it to Bushnell's 3.5-21x50 DMRII and it's still lighter, compared to ZCO's 4-20 and it's lighter, compared to the Kahles K318i and it's lighter but compared to the Nightforce ATACR F1 4-16x42 it is a fraction heavier, compare to the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 and it's heavier and compared to the Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44 it's heavier or the March 3-24x52 and it's heavier. With exception of the March all the scopes that are lighter than the Ultra Short 3-20 have smaller objectives and do not have wide a range of magnification and are not on par optically, the March may be the closest but struggles with a finicky eyebox and parallax as well as a lack of depth. The only scope I've found to be on par (and slightly exceeding) the Schmidt optically is the Kahles K318i, but this scope has less FOV, less magnification and is heavier but it is much shorter - to its benefit. The Premier LT or TT315M may just barely qualify as an Ultra Short and the Hensoldt 4-16x56 may as well, both these scopes may perform better optically vs. the Schmidt but have their own drawbacks (Sorry if I left a scope out, the good news is there are quite a few options available now in this category).

I sold my Schmidt US 3-20 last year mostly because I preferred the SKMR style .2 mil reticle over the MSR (reticles are personal preference); however, I have a Schmidt Ultra Short 3-20 with MSR2 reticle due from UPS tomorrow and am hoping it will impress me - I've had numerous discussions with FinnAccuracy and think I will really like all the enhanced features over the MSR. I'll be doing a quick analysis of the Kahles vs. the Schmidt so stay tuned.

I believe the reason we don't see more 3-20's for PRS/NRL is because optics tend to struggle at their extreme ranges and if you're in competition you are likely to want the best optical quality for the sweet spot. A few months ago there was a discussion similar to this where there was a debate on what is the most common top magnification used in competition, by a fair margin the consensus was that 15-20x seemed to be the max for most competitors even at long range. Frank had joined the discussion and mentioned he uses Schmidt's 3-27x56 scope and I asked if he never used it above 20x for competition then why not use the 3-20 Ultra Short and he said it was because the 3-27 performs better optically in that 15-20 range than does the 3-20. Now that's not to say the 3-20 performs poorly, but there are optics that perform better and competitors tend to seek out that "edge" that can help them win. Another reason may be the high cost of Ultra Short optics, these alpha class scopes tend to be more expensive than their 5-25 counterparts with the Schmidt, Kahles and ZCO all going for north of $3k. Price, quality and durability play a big factor in the choices made for competitive shooters.
 
Glad to hear you're thoroughly enjoying the 3-20 Nate!

OP, the general consensus on the Ultra Shorts is that they are truly amazing scopes for what they are - very short for their mag range and objective size. It is harder, from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint, to make ultra short scopes and even harder to make them "light" - with light being an objective term: If you compare the 3-20 Ultra Short to Vortex's Gen II 3-18 you'll see that the Schmidt is much lighter, compare it to Bushnell's 3.5-21x50 DMRII and it's still lighter, compared to ZCO's 4-20 and it's lighter, compared to the Kahles K318i and it's lighter but compared to the Nightforce ATACR F1 4-16x42 it is a fraction heavier, compare to the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 and it's heavier and compared to the Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44 it's heavier or the March 3-24x52 and it's heavier. With exception of the March all the scopes that are lighter than the Ultra Short 3-20 have smaller objectives and do not have wide a range of magnification and are not on par optically, the March may be the closest but struggles with a finicky eyebox and parallax as well as a lack of depth. The only scope I've found to be on par (and slightly exceeding) the Schmidt optically is the Kahles K318i, but this scope has less FOV, less magnification and is heavier but it is much shorter - to its benefit. The Premier LT or TT315M may just barely qualify as an Ultra Short and the Hensoldt 4-16x56 may as well, both these scopes may perform better optically vs. the Schmidt but have their own drawbacks (Sorry if I left a scope out, the good news is there are quite a few options available now in this category).

I sold my Schmidt US 3-20 last year mostly because I preferred the SKMR style .2 mil reticle over the MSR (reticles are personal preference); however, I have a Schmidt Ultra Short 3-20 with MSR2 reticle due from UPS tomorrow and am hoping it will impress me - I've had numerous discussions with FinnAccuracy and think I will really like all the enhanced features over the MSR. I'll be doing a quick analysis of the Kahles vs. the Schmidt so stay tuned.

I believe the reason we don't see more 3-20's for PRS/NRL is because optics tend to struggle at their extreme ranges and if you're in competition you are likely to want the best optical quality for the sweet spot. A few months ago there was a discussion similar to this where there was a debate on what is the most common top magnification used in competition, by a fair margin the consensus was that 15-20x seemed to be the max for most competitors even at long range. Frank had joined the discussion and mentioned he uses Schmidt's 3-27x56 scope and I asked if he never used it above 20x for competition then why not use the 3-20 Ultra Short and he said it was because the 3-27 performs better optically in that 15-20 range than does the 3-20. Now that's not to say the 3-20 performs poorly, but there are optics that perform better and competitors tend to seek out that "edge" that can help them win. Another reason may be the high cost of Ultra Short optics, these alpha class scopes tend to be more expensive than their 5-25 counterparts with the Schmidt, Kahles and ZCO all going for north of $3k. Price, quality and durability play a big factor in the choices made for competitive shooters.
 
Thanks for great info. I didn't do a lot of research beforehand. Wanted a new reticle ( had p4f). Guess you are right I am doing a little irrational self justification afterwards, but don't we all? :)
 
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Glad to hear you're thoroughly enjoying the 3-20 Nate!

OP, the general consensus on the Ultra Shorts is that they are truly amazing scopes for what they are - very short for their mag range and objective size. It is harder, from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint, to make ultra short scopes and even harder to make them "light" - with light being an objective term: If you compare the 3-20 Ultra Short to Vortex's Gen II 3-18 you'll see that the Schmidt is much lighter, compare it to Bushnell's 3.5-21x50 DMRII and it's still lighter, compared to ZCO's 4-20 and it's lighter, compared to the Kahles K318i and it's lighter but compared to the Nightforce ATACR F1 4-16x42 it is a fraction heavier, compare to the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 and it's heavier and compared to the Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44 it's heavier or the March 3-24x52 and it's heavier. With exception of the March all the scopes that are lighter than the Ultra Short 3-20 have smaller objectives and do not have wide a range of magnification and are not on par optically, the March may be the closest but struggles with a finicky eyebox and parallax as well as a lack of depth. The only scope I've found to be on par (and slightly exceeding) the Schmidt optically is the Kahles K318i, but this scope has less FOV, less magnification and is heavier but it is much shorter - to its benefit. The Premier LT or TT315M may just barely qualify as an Ultra Short and the Hensoldt 4-16x56 may as well, both these scopes may perform better optically vs. the Schmidt but have their own drawbacks (Sorry if I left a scope out, the good news is there are quite a few options available now in this category).

I sold my Schmidt US 3-20 last year mostly because I preferred the SKMR style .2 mil reticle over the MSR (reticles are personal preference); however, I have a Schmidt Ultra Short 3-20 with MSR2 reticle due from UPS tomorrow and am hoping it will impress me - I've had numerous discussions with FinnAccuracy and think I will really like all the enhanced features over the MSR. I'll be doing a quick analysis of the Kahles vs. the Schmidt so stay tuned.

I believe the reason we don't see more 3-20's for PRS/NRL is because optics tend to struggle at their extreme ranges and if you're in competition you are likely to want the best optical quality for the sweet spot. A few months ago there was a discussion similar to this where there was a debate on what is the most common top magnification used in competition, by a fair margin the consensus was that 15-20x seemed to be the max for most competitors even at long range. Frank had joined the discussion and mentioned he uses Schmidt's 3-27x56 scope and I asked if he never used it above 20x for competition then why not use the 3-20 Ultra Short and he said it was because the 3-27 performs better optically in that 15-20 range than does the 3-20. Now that's not to say the 3-20 performs poorly, but there are optics that perform better and competitors tend to seek out that "edge" that can help them win. Another reason may be the high cost of Ultra Short optics, these alpha class scopes tend to be more expensive than their 5-25 counterparts with the Schmidt, Kahles and ZCO all going for north of $3k. Price, quality and durability play a big factor in the choices made for competitive shooters.


Thanks Wjm308, I didn't realise the 3-20 was punching above its weight in regards to it's weight. :)
To the OP, I would think that once you start seriously using the scope that will be all the justifcation you'll need for buying one.
 
Just got the Ultra Short 3-20 with MSR2 reticle today. First time with the 18 mil clicks, MTC is definitely improved but not sure how much I like the clicks, they are so close together it's hard to discern and not as audible as I hoped.
 
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Just got the Ultra Short 3-20 with MSR2 reticle today. First time with the 18 mil clicks, MTC is definitely improved but not sure how much I like the clicks, they are so close together it's hard to discern and not as audible as I hoped.
Is there any option through possibly a S&B custom shop to remove the MTC feature? I went Kahles for that reason alone
 
Is there any option through possibly a S&B custom shop to remove the MTC feature? I went Kahles for that reason alone
Actually, I like the MTC on the new Ultra Short, it is not like previous iterations that caused me to over dial by .1-.2 clicks and then have to go back, it's the overall feel, the clicks are almost silent and very hard for my brain to count if I'm not looking. But to answer your question, yes, I know that Schmidt can remove MTC completely if you send in a scope, the cost is a couple hundred if I remember.
 
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Trying to attach a video to show comparison of the S&B and Kahles turrets, was hoping I could embed but it appears I can only provide the link (I'm not a social media or youtube guy so dropbox is about as close as I get). Someone let me know if the below link works, thanks.

 
Trying to attach a video to show comparison of the S&B and Kahles turrets, was hoping I could embed but it appears I can only provide the link (I'm not a social media or youtube guy so dropbox is about as close as I get). Someone let me know if the below link works, thanks.


Good Video Bill. It's difficult to go by a video's audio but my 3-20 US appears to have much more audible clicks than the one in your video. Mine is the 14mil/turn turret though, I like them well enough that I never think about the turret - read the dope, dial and shoot. The K318i does have better turrets however, as does my NF 4-16.
 
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Good Video Bill. It's difficult to go by a video audio but my 3-20 US appears to have much more audible clicks than the one in your video. Mine is the 14mil/turn turret though, I like them well enough that I never think about the turret - read the dope, dial and shoot. The K318i does have better turrets however, as does my NF 4-16.
Thanks BP, I had the 14 mil turrets last year in the 3-20 and I felt those were much more audible as well; however, the MTC caused me to overtravel whereas it doesn't with the 18 mil version, trade offs I suppose, I also don't remember the turret knurling biting into my fingers as much with the 14 mil as I find with the 18.
 
Thanks BP, I had the 14 mil turrets last year in the 3-20 and I felt those were much more audible as well; however, the MTC caused me to overtravel whereas it doesn't with the 18 mil version, trade offs I suppose, I also don't remember the turret knurling biting into my fingers as much with the 14 mil as I find with the 18.

I'd be interested in a US 14mil turret with the MTC removed. I've gotten used to mine but I'd certainly like to fiddle with one sans MTC. My fingers are already all chewed up from my previous career so I've never noticed more damage :)