I'm looking to start reloading 6.5 creedmore and I need to buy the dies. There are dies priced from 80$ upto 250$. I dont shoot competitions, all for fun and all less then 600yrds. Some of the sets have dual micrometers and some have just the micrometer on the seating dies. My question is do I need to spend the money and get the "best" set or can I do the same or very close to the same reloads with the lower priced set? I dont have a problem spending the money if I need to, i just dont want to waste it if i dont have to.
Question about die sets
- Thread starter Beadlocked450r
- Start date
Hornady match, all day long. Better than Redding, and far less expensive. Uses the same .5” bushings as all the other bushing dies.
Micrometers are exact and convenient.
That being said, I use Hornady Custom Grade dies for my 6.5 Creed, and I’m getting .3-.5 moa out of those handloads. No micrometer, no bushings, no special shell holders, out of a factory Howa action in a chassis.
If I were in your spot, I don’t think I would spend money on match dies.
That being said, I use Hornady Custom Grade dies for my 6.5 Creed, and I’m getting .3-.5 moa out of those handloads. No micrometer, no bushings, no special shell holders, out of a factory Howa action in a chassis.
If I were in your spot, I don’t think I would spend money on match dies.
Do not waste your money on a micrometer topped sizing die. Excellent for seating, no need for one when sizing.
+ANOTHER for Hornady match grade dies..... has .5 bushing sizer and micrometer seater... not a bad price either.
One last question, I see there is no crimp die? I have only loaded pistol and rifle is new to me. Does the seating die also crimp? And do I also need to buy anything extra for eld rounds?
Some seating dies can be setup for a crimp. That said.... No one I know uses it or crimps their rounds unless perhaps they are going into a semi automatic or a magnum heavy recoil gun.
Most people concentrate on achieving .001-.002 neck tension which is more than enough for 99% of all situations.
Most people concentrate on achieving .001-.002 neck tension which is more than enough for 99% of all situations.
I have the 6.5 custom match grade die set. I was happy with it till I started checking runout and velocity spreads. The Hornady sizing die does produces very concentric necks even thou it 'overworks necks' but the seating die produces massive runout 'for me'. So ive ordered a forster bench rest seating die(non micrometer) from optics planet for 47 dollars delivered after recent promo. Only issue is its on backorder..but I can wait.
After having the same question you have and reading dozens of hours on forums ive come to this conclusion. Lee collet neck die..redding body die and forster bench rest seating die. These three dies can be bought for a total of around 100 bucks and you'll have lots of options..you'll have the option of just neck sizing but if shoulder needs bumped back you'll be able to do it however much or little you want with the body die. In fact you can leave out the body die for starters..reload with the neck sizer and Forster seater till chambering becomes a problem. depending on your volume of shooting and number or brass is could be a week or a year. And the Forster bench rest seating die is simply the best bang for your buck.
Another advantage of the Lee collet neck die you get rid of the full length resizing dies only drawbacks. Which are overworking necks and inconsistent neck tension from the expander ball and in some cases creating concentricity issues from the expander ball also. Plus its less then 30 bucks.
After having the same question you have and reading dozens of hours on forums ive come to this conclusion. Lee collet neck die..redding body die and forster bench rest seating die. These three dies can be bought for a total of around 100 bucks and you'll have lots of options..you'll have the option of just neck sizing but if shoulder needs bumped back you'll be able to do it however much or little you want with the body die. In fact you can leave out the body die for starters..reload with the neck sizer and Forster seater till chambering becomes a problem. depending on your volume of shooting and number or brass is could be a week or a year. And the Forster bench rest seating die is simply the best bang for your buck.
Another advantage of the Lee collet neck die you get rid of the full length resizing dies only drawbacks. Which are overworking necks and inconsistent neck tension from the expander ball and in some cases creating concentricity issues from the expander ball also. Plus its less then 30 bucks.
Please excuse my ignorance, as stated above rifle reloading is completely new to me, how does one adjust neck tension?
Whoa whoa whoa htf is the Hornady match grade die over working your neck? You choose the neck tension with your bushing and the whole neck sizing fud thing has been debunked over and over. I FL size everytime and my brass life/run out are excellent.
He said "custom match" which is smashing 2 product line names together, Im guessing he doesnt know what die he actually has is actually called.
There is 1 die line called custom grade which are the plain jane generic low end and
There is 1 die line called match grade with the bushings.
A couple ways to achieve it but basically you just control how much interference fit there is between the case neck and the bullet. You can use different sized expander balls in your dies, you can use different sized expander mandrels in a seperate dies (including collet dies), you can use a bushing die with no expander.
Just to have a bit of fun ... you should spend way too much money on your first set of dies because that is what the rest of us did. Think of it as a rite of passage. Most of us are too embarrassed to admit how much we spent on gear only to discover that we didn't need it - the magic is in the training.
The theory behind micrometer dies is to make changes precisely. But if you have a good load - powder charge, shoulder bump, neck tension, and seating depth - you only change it rarely and not by much. Most of us now have good dies that are locked in position. Because we have good settings and good technique, good dies get it done. When you are getting started, you don't know how to use the fancy gear - the limiting factor is you. Good but not top-of-the-line gear, used carefully learn as you go, can make you into a consistent half-MOA shooter. When you get there and you are drooling for a really pretty micrometer seater well then have at it. But I bet it won't take a tenth of your groups.
For a beginner it’s nice to keep it simple and go with a full length die and a seater. Forster would be my first choice and Lee would be my second choice for simple affordable no nonsense get it done reloading.
Neck tension is the "grip" the neck of the case has on the bullet. When the case is driven into the sizing die that is where a couple things can happen depending on the die set you use. A full length sizer die (FL) if set properly will bump the shoulder of a bottle neck rifle case back .001-.002" and the neck will be reduced in circumference. FL sizing dies that utilize a bushing allow you to control the amount of sizing the neck receives (how much the reduction in circumference it gets). The bushings are sold separately from the die sets and come in various sizes so you can account for different variables such as brass thickness at the neck of a case. A different die set is a neck sizing die, it can also use bushings just as described above, or a mandrel such as the Lee neck sizing die. All a neck sizing die does is size the circumference of the neck, nothing else. Which is fine for bolt actions if that round is going to continuously be fired from the exact same gun. But even then eventually it will need to be ran through a FL sizing die or a an other die called a body die (only sized the body not the neck) so that the shoulder of the case gets bumped back .001-.002 in size.
So far all I have described is the reduction in neck circumference. This is only part of the neck tension process. The next part is when an expanding ball is pulled back through the rifle case as you bring the case back out of the sizing die. The expander ball expands the neck circumference back open a tiny bit to create the final neck tension. The hornady match grade dies that use a bushing have perhaps one of the best expander balls I have seen, it is just right for my purposes. BUT some, and likely myself in the future, will remove the expnader ball all together and elect to use a set of SinClair expanding and neck turning mandrels to set tension. Not a necessity, especially if you are new to rifle reloading. Just another way to increase consistency and exercise extreme anal retentiveness. In the end you should be able to take a measurement of a loaded round at the neck and of a sized round without the bullet at the neck and the difference would be .001-.002 which is the diameter difference between a loaded and unloaded/sized round and thus your neck tension. For most applications, people prefer .001 neck tension, but no less. I think my setup for 308 right now is producing rounds with .0015" neck tension.
HERE a a good article to read on the subject, it features a redding bushing die, but the same goes for any and all bushing dies regardless of manufacturer. All bushings are interchangable with other dies excluding Forster, theirs are different from everyone. But for instance in my hornady match grade bushing dies I can use Hornady, Wilson, Redding, etc bushings.
1st thank you everyone that has chimed in on this. I did not realize rifle cartridges were so indepth to make.
My next question is what size die bushing(s) do I start with? There about 6 different sizes, how do I know which to use or which I need? And do I need to buy the match grade seating system for eld and eld bullets or does that come with the match grade dies?
My next question is what size die bushing(s) do I start with? There about 6 different sizes, how do I know which to use or which I need? And do I need to buy the match grade seating system for eld and eld bullets or does that come with the match grade dies?
Depends slightly on your brass make, but .288-.289 will work fine. I’d buy both so You can adjust as needed with different brass makes and lot variances etc. no need for the tin coated Redding’s. Standard ones are better, and personally I’d use Wilson.
I guess I'll be different. If this is not a custom rifle just go buy a standard 2 die set from Hornady, Redding or RCBS and go out and have fun. You don't need bushing dies or a micrometer top seating die. Learn to reload, get comfortable with the process, and then buy a bushing die if you want.
New guys have enough stuff to learn and you don't need to add bushing dies to the mix. And yeah, I have both bushing dies and micrometer tops on some of my dies. I can load just as straight of ammo on some of my RCBS 2 die sets as I can on my Redding Competition bushing dies.
New guys have enough stuff to learn and you don't need to add bushing dies to the mix. And yeah, I have both bushing dies and micrometer tops on some of my dies. I can load just as straight of ammo on some of my RCBS 2 die sets as I can on my Redding Competition bushing dies.
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Sorry, I did misquote. I have the Custom grade-non bushing Hornady die set. What I meant with overworking the neck is..I've removed the expander ball and checked neck diameter b4 and after sizing and it was around .010.
And since your new to reloading..just listened to this podcast yesterday and wished i'd had someone explain things to me like he does b4 I started out. Im not saying Whidden Gunworks is the brand to buy..he just explains things really well.
Whidden Gunworks Podcast
Whidden Gunworks Podcast
Whats the difference between the sized neck and the loaded neck though? Measuring fired and sized neck may say more about your chamber than it does about the die.
I tried only once to seat a bullet in a case when it hadn't been expanded after sizing. At around .010 neck tension it went in pretty hard! When using the expander ball in sizing die, the difference between fired neck and sized neck is only .003. Which tells me the expander ball stretches the neck .007. Lately ive been using an expander mandrel die after sizing instead of the expander ball. But Im not quite satisfied..im wondering if Hornady hones out dies like Forster does?
Ah, that’s definitely too much sizing. You had said the difference was .01 between fired and sized.
That makes a good case for the Hornady match die. The expander rod assembly (Hornady calls it a spindle) of the match die is a much better design than the custom grade. The rod floats. I have mandrels for every common caliber, but don’t use them in the cartridges I have Hornady dies for. Just not needed, and it saves a step.
That makes a good case for the Hornady match die. The expander rod assembly (Hornady calls it a spindle) of the match die is a much better design than the custom grade. The rod floats. I have mandrels for every common caliber, but don’t use them in the cartridges I have Hornady dies for. Just not needed, and it saves a step.
correct. When sizing without the expander ball (which I guess would be half-a@#ed sizing)..then yes the diameter difference between fired and sized is .01.
I think the terms Hornady's marketing uses on their die sets is genius. It pisses me off..but definitely genius. When starting out reloading I priced out the cheapest dies on the market. Which are the Hornady American die sets. But for an extra ten dollars you get the ones which are 'Custom grade'! WOW. Its a no brainer for a guy like me. Oh and the 100 free bullets. I wanna bet that has sold more die sets then anything else...but consequently also has more boxes of bullets sitting in reloading rooms that the guy paid 6.95 for to ship and handle and will never use.
I have the Redding Type S dies for all rifles except for one. If I could do it over again, and I might, I'd go for Whidden or Forster Dies. I think the micrometer seaters are totally unnecessary. Once you set it up you don't need to change it. Even still, it's not much different than the Micrometer. If you have to have micrometer, go Forster or Whidden. I hate the Redding micrometer.
One thing the micrometer seaters are nice for is when doing load development. Takes a bit of time out of it when doing groups with different coal. Oh and its also nice when chasing the lands as barrel gets worn out.
Right now you can get the forster bench rest die set for around 85 bucks on opticsplanet after discount. That's what id get next time around.
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Watching this. Have same idea as beadlocked. Will be jumping into 6.5 creed shortly. Have been using hornady rifle dies in other calibers for a while, with decent results. Been looking at Redding and Forster. Definately want a mic on the seating die. Which set is the big question. Mix and match or spend the money on the high dollar set.
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I started with Lee dies. Pros = sizing die is straight and makes concentric necks. Cons = seating die is shit and the sizer is hard to set up.
I progressed to RCBS. Pros = easy to set up, and seater is marginally better. Cons = hard to make really straight ammo.
I bought Hornady. Pros = seater has a sleeve to keep bullet aligned during seating. Cons = the dies are really tall which made them awkward in my Co-ax, and the sleeve on the seater is retained by a spring clip that lets it fall out at regular intervals.
I settled on Forster. Easy to adjust, makes straight ammo, sleeve is spring loaded and doesn't fall out, micrometer seater, not all that expensive.
I progressed to RCBS. Pros = easy to set up, and seater is marginally better. Cons = hard to make really straight ammo.
I bought Hornady. Pros = seater has a sleeve to keep bullet aligned during seating. Cons = the dies are really tall which made them awkward in my Co-ax, and the sleeve on the seater is retained by a spring clip that lets it fall out at regular intervals.
I settled on Forster. Easy to adjust, makes straight ammo, sleeve is spring loaded and doesn't fall out, micrometer seater, not all that expensive.
This thread from years ago answers some questions on Forster benchrest seating vs micrometer.
Old Thread
Also you can get the standard seater and upgrade to the mic head if you want to in the future.( at least ive read on other forums that you can) You can also switch out just the die chamber to seat different calibers. Forster has all the parts breakdowns on their website.
I don't know why Forster doesn't offer a die set that has the ultra mic seater along with sizing die.
Old Thread
Also you can get the standard seater and upgrade to the mic head if you want to in the future.( at least ive read on other forums that you can) You can also switch out just the die chamber to seat different calibers. Forster has all the parts breakdowns on their website.
I don't know why Forster doesn't offer a die set that has the ultra mic seater along with sizing die.
I don't buy anything but micrometer seating dies. Feel free to spend your time fiddling with set screws and lock nuts if you want but this homie has better things to do.
The hotness is honed Forster dies and a Sinclair mandrel.
The hotness is honed Forster dies and a Sinclair mandrel.
I think my POS 308 has 10k rounds through it (it's a Hart chambered at least 15 years ago) and the lands haven't moved enough for me to change seating depth. I took it to the range on Saturday and shot in a moderate rain. I shot a cold bore 5-shot group and then another 5-shot group. Groups were .55 then .47 MOA That is sufficient for what I do. I seat with a Wilson seater and, come to think of it, my seaters have micrometer heads but, experiments aside, I haven't changed seating depth in the last 5 years. I check them annually to be sure that the lock screw loktite is still good.
If you keep trying different bullets or if, as you say, the throat keeps moving then I see the value. But I settled on a bullet and I haven't changed for a decade or more. My ammo has to fit in the magazine - I use AI magazines. I can make pretty consistent first-round hits at 800 on a 1-MOA target, once in a while with a half-MOA target, with a 308 and that is all I ask for.
You can retrofit most seater dies, yes. But you’re still stuck with the static body. Most micro seaters have a sliding sleeve that prealigns the bullet and the brass before it starts pressing in crooked. Or so the theory goes.
Yes but forster is different in that regard the way I understand it. Here is the 'standard' forster bench rest seating die's description from Forster website.
Product Description
Forster created the first die of its kind on the market, and it’s still the best straight-line Seater Die anywhere. The sliding Die Chamber has a concentric bullet channel just slightly larger than the bullet diameter. This tight fit ensures straight-line (co-axial) seating.
The hand-polished Bullet Seating Stem provides consistent reloads. The Seater Die adapts to most standard reloading presses. Its non-crimping style provides accuracy, consistency, and perfect alignment.
Years ago, Forster/Bonanza obtained U.S. Patent #3,440,923 for the design of the original Bench Rest Seater Die. That patent covered the use of a specially machined, close-fitting chamber that holds the case, the bullet, and the seating stem all in perfect alignment. This innovative chamber design is still the hallmark of our Bench Rest Seater Dies, because it’s the premier system of all “in-line” seater systems, which support the entire outside diameter of the sized case rather than just the bullet and case neck.
We have continued to refine our seating stems to better fit newly designed ballistic tips and to match most very low drag (VLD) bullets. Our close-fitting chamber (part #P-30) made with one-piece reamers ensures concentricity and accuracy.
Seater Dies are available in 80 calibers, either individually or bundled with a Full Length Sizing Die in the Bench Rest Die Set.
Well...KISS. leave out the decapper and just use the hornady seater. Screw down the rod until it extends 1.25 inch or so out the bottom and decap. It's not like it's hard to set it again.?
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I don't clean my brass prior to decapping with the hornady sizer. The brass doesn't touch the die if you screw down the rod far enough.
I'll add a disclaimer..it's not designed for that.so using a actual decapping die is a better idea.. if you don't make sure the rod is centered when tightening the decapping rod you'll miss the primer. I run the ram up to center the rod in shell holder b4 tightening.
Update on Forster bench rest seater die from optics planet. (Since I talked about them so much) Ordered one for 6.5 cm three weeks ago..next day I got an email it might ship in thirty days. Now I did an inquiry and they replied after a day and a half telling me they expect to get them in July 22. Could be more..could be less. Fun
Awesome. So their dies are just as rare as their presses..... like finding hens teeth. Lol.
In all seriousness, I’m considering getting a new die set... Forster and Redding will get a good hard look.
In all seriousness, I’m considering getting a new die set... Forster and Redding will get a good hard look.
Micrometer seating dies are invaluable if you are loading for multiple guns of the same caliber and that require different and precise seating depths. They are also great if you are doing ladder tests with different seating depthsIf you are loading for a single firearm, there is little reason to change the die once you have established your seating depth.
If you are using one bullet exclusively, most die makers will machine a custom stem for the price of the stem and $15 or so.
If you are using one bullet exclusively, most die makers will machine a custom stem for the price of the stem and $15 or so.
this was just opticsplanet..but I see Natchez..precision reloading and midwayusa are also out of stock. Ebay has some...im assuming they wouldn't have them listed if they didn't have them on hand! Unlike Optics planet.
I was in the OP's shoes not long ago. The "easiest" route for me was going with the forster bench rest die set for concentricity and the sleve that lets you upgrade to a micrometer later if needed. So far I don't. However you don't have to get bushings with this set and the neck tension is predetermined by the internal dimension of the die if I understood correctly. Also, 6.5 creedmoor is hard to find but they're in stock at Brownell's. No crimp on this die as most don't use it in precision bolt actions with non-cannelure bullets. So you may want to cancel at OP and look here. They have a money back guarantee I believe. Message me if you have questions and I'll even talk about what I did over the phone.
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749017794 | Brownells
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I might cancel if I cant get my Hornady custom grade seater to seat better. Only issue is...and its a small one...my price at OP was 47 bucks delivered(since then its gone up nearly 20 bucks.) im a cheap bastard that way.I was in the OP's shoes not long ago. The "easiest" route for me was going with the forster bench rest die set for concentricity and the sleve that lets you upgrade to a micrometer later if needed. So far I don't. However you don't have to get bushings with this set and the neck tension is predetermined by the internal dimension of the die if I understood correctly. Also, 6.5 creedmoor is hard to find but they're in stock at Brownell's.
749017794 | Brownells
Brownells is your source for 749017794 at Brownells parts and accessories. Shop our vast selection and save!
Oh and if you want to change neck tension you can always send it to Forster to hone out..10 to 15 bucks or so..
I started out using Lee and RCBS die’s. I’ve progressed to Redding type S die sets for most cartridges I load. I prefer micrometer seating die’s since I own multiple rifles chambered for the same cartridges. Also use Sinclair expander die with expander mandrel’s for precise neck tension control.
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