22-Creed
- Thread starter skinney_7
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Not to rain on your parade but I just don't get the super hot 22 cartridges like this... Yes I know there are hotter...
But a 22 Creed seems to serve more of a novelty role rather than a practical one.
I mean, sure it's fast, but at what cost and what's the payoff?
Barrel life has to be what... 700 rounds.
Then there's the whole E=MC2 thing, meaning the faster you push it, the faster it slows down, that just basic physics stuff.
Seems to me that guys are just better served with the 6 creed rather than the 22 version.
I don't know... am I missing something?
But a 22 Creed seems to serve more of a novelty role rather than a practical one.
I mean, sure it's fast, but at what cost and what's the payoff?
Barrel life has to be what... 700 rounds.
Then there's the whole E=MC2 thing, meaning the faster you push it, the faster it slows down, that just basic physics stuff.
Seems to me that guys are just better served with the 6 creed rather than the 22 version.
I don't know... am I missing something?
James,
Very cool rifle, thanks for posting pictures.
Practical,
From you post I suspect, but do not know, that you are primarily a match or paper shooter. Folks who do that don't need or understand the needs of a dynamic sitution hunting rifle. James is a coyote killer. And not just a few dozen. Hundreds every year. Coyotes are fast, tricky and often arrive in groups. Even if you get a laser on one, it is most likely moving. Or, it's teamates are moving. Lot of rapid changes. If a coyote sees you move the range is going to change fast.
Flat trajectory, and shortening the leads on movers is crucial to a coyote hunter. Barrel life is not. Even if that rifle is 1000-1200 rounds and toast, it's not a factor. After sighting and checking and a few misses you are still looking at 7-800 dead coyotes and a lot of great video. If it makes 5 more kills than he would with a 22-250 it's worth it. Might be a triple kill on one set up rather than a double. That barrel is a drop in the bucket compared to the optics, NV, suppressors, cameras, fuel, time etc James has invested.
This is my opinion and James may well differ.
Very cool rifle, thanks for posting pictures.
Practical,
From you post I suspect, but do not know, that you are primarily a match or paper shooter. Folks who do that don't need or understand the needs of a dynamic sitution hunting rifle. James is a coyote killer. And not just a few dozen. Hundreds every year. Coyotes are fast, tricky and often arrive in groups. Even if you get a laser on one, it is most likely moving. Or, it's teamates are moving. Lot of rapid changes. If a coyote sees you move the range is going to change fast.
Flat trajectory, and shortening the leads on movers is crucial to a coyote hunter. Barrel life is not. Even if that rifle is 1000-1200 rounds and toast, it's not a factor. After sighting and checking and a few misses you are still looking at 7-800 dead coyotes and a lot of great video. If it makes 5 more kills than he would with a 22-250 it's worth it. Might be a triple kill on one set up rather than a double. That barrel is a drop in the bucket compared to the optics, NV, suppressors, cameras, fuel, time etc James has invested.
This is my opinion and James may well differ.
You are missing a lot, but for starters if you are going to use the term "basic physics", you might want to start with a formula that is not part of the theory of special relativity. Haha.
Fast 22 caliber cartridges are awesome. They slay varmints like nothing else on the planet. Barrel life just doesn't matter to some people.
[U]rth1800[/U]
Guilty as charged.... Match shooter.
Thank you for your response. Makes sense for the purpose you described.
Guilty as charged.... Match shooter.
Thank you for your response. Makes sense for the purpose you described.
even as a match shooter, the ballistics and energy of a 88/90/95 at 3100-3200 is impressive
look at what the 224 valk does at much slower speeds
I’ve just jumped in to the 22 Creedmoor crowd, I’m having 2 rifles with 22cm barrels (6.5 twist, so only shooting 95smk’s) put on them with a switch lug to go with my 6.5 cm.
I had multiple reasons for choosing a 22cm, I varmint hunt a little and I shoot matches. I didn’t really go with 22cm for match shooting but I may use it at the local matches with low round counts. The barrel life should be higher than 700 rounds too, more like twice that before significant degradation. So that puts it close to many of the fast 6mm. I really wanted to switch to 6mm dasher but I already had everything setup for 6.5cm and I felt like the 6.5 and 6mm were not enough different to really feel like I was getting to play with new cartridge and I wanted something different. I have large caliber 300rum and mid size 6.5cm and I wanted a small fast caliber.
As far as barrel life goes too, when people first started getting into the 6mm, lots of people were saying that they were impractical because the barrel life is half of the 6.5 cm and a tenth of .308. Now look how many people are shooting the 6mm.
I would say the biggest draw back with the fast 22’s for match shooting is reducing the ability to spot impacts even further than the 6mm, which can be difficult at times at extended ranges.
I've jumped on the 22 creed wagon also.
Mainly for the better drop and drift compared to my 223
It really opened my eyes when I took my 223, loaded with 55g blitzkings @3100 fps (BC=.271)
and shot out to 400 yds. It was not what I expected.
The 22 creed shooting the higher BC bullets will have much less drift and drop than the 223
So less correction to worry about. You can drive a 75g ELD-M to 3500+ fps (BC=.437)
Dead doggie
Happy farmers
Mainly for the better drop and drift compared to my 223
It really opened my eyes when I took my 223, loaded with 55g blitzkings @3100 fps (BC=.271)
and shot out to 400 yds. It was not what I expected.
The 22 creed shooting the higher BC bullets will have much less drift and drop than the 223
So less correction to worry about. You can drive a 75g ELD-M to 3500+ fps (BC=.437)
Dead doggie
Happy farmers
I'm gustimating 700 round barrel life of coarse, but based on my experience with the 6x47Lapua which was dead at 800 rounds.
Now, that was polygonal rifling which probably has shorter barrel life than 5R. But with 22 Creed we are talking about a smaller bore which will wear faster.
I get the ballistic math, and for the hunting application is justifiable.
But a humble 223 throated long enough to run 75 grain Hornady ELDs with an OAL of 2.55" will open up the case capacity enough to hit 2900 FPS easy enough.
No, that is not in the ball park of a 22 Creed but now we are talking about ballistics identical to a 308 Winchester and does surprisingly well out to about 800 yards.
A factory Ruger RPR in 223 is throated to jam the lands with the 75s at 2.5" OAL and with that I hit 2900 FPS with Varget and feed from a magazine which is cool. AR mags wont feed anything longer than about 2.25, so the extra 1/4" gets the speed up a bit.
A Rem 700 in 223 (with a long throat) on any chassis that feeds AI format mags will also get more out of the 223.
Not that I'm claiming the 223 to be the holy grail or anything, but it seems so often that guys perceive it to be less than it can be because they limit their loads to short factory offerings,
The advantage is 3000 rounds of barrel life, so there's that.
Now, that was polygonal rifling which probably has shorter barrel life than 5R. But with 22 Creed we are talking about a smaller bore which will wear faster.
I get the ballistic math, and for the hunting application is justifiable.
But a humble 223 throated long enough to run 75 grain Hornady ELDs with an OAL of 2.55" will open up the case capacity enough to hit 2900 FPS easy enough.
No, that is not in the ball park of a 22 Creed but now we are talking about ballistics identical to a 308 Winchester and does surprisingly well out to about 800 yards.
A factory Ruger RPR in 223 is throated to jam the lands with the 75s at 2.5" OAL and with that I hit 2900 FPS with Varget and feed from a magazine which is cool. AR mags wont feed anything longer than about 2.25, so the extra 1/4" gets the speed up a bit.
A Rem 700 in 223 (with a long throat) on any chassis that feeds AI format mags will also get more out of the 223.
Not that I'm claiming the 223 to be the holy grail or anything, but it seems so often that guys perceive it to be less than it can be because they limit their loads to short factory offerings,
The advantage is 3000 rounds of barrel life, so there's that.
I think your barrel life estimates are a bit on the low side. I have seen several shooters using their 6 Creed barrels at over 2,000 rounds with good success in matches. My coyote hunting rifle is a .22-250 with a 1:8" twist shooting 75 grain bullets at Mach 3. I maybe shoot 100 rounds a year through this gun. That is a lot of coyote slaying. The barrel will last a long time for this purpose. This is the type of application where a 22 Creed would be awesome. People have been doing it with .22-250 Ackley improved for 40 years.
Just run some #'s using the 75 ELDM with both the 223@2900 and 22c@3550
@400yds the 22 will drop 11in less and drift 3in less, not much but a difference of tracking a dog and nailing him there.
@ your 800yds. 72 in less drop and 16in less drift, in a 10 mph wind.
I know drop is a constant, and can be figured out. It's still 6 feet I don't have to dial or hold for
and 16in less drift is almost 1/2 the size of a midwest size dog.
I'll go with the 22creed for hunting yotes.
Pick the best tool for the job.
Barrels are cheap compared to one $1500.00 calf that didn't grow up.
@400yds the 22 will drop 11in less and drift 3in less, not much but a difference of tracking a dog and nailing him there.
@ your 800yds. 72 in less drop and 16in less drift, in a 10 mph wind.
I know drop is a constant, and can be figured out. It's still 6 feet I don't have to dial or hold for
and 16in less drift is almost 1/2 the size of a midwest size dog.
I'll go with the 22creed for hunting yotes.
Pick the best tool for the job.
Barrels are cheap compared to one $1500.00 calf that didn't grow up.
@PracticalTactical just for future reference, Einstein’s basic equation for mass-energy equivalence has absolutely nothing to do with aerodynamic deceleration, it’s mostly used in nuclear physics for fision/fusion reactions where conservation of mass would seem to be ignored without it, or for calculating an object’s intrinsic energy at rest.
I love the look of that rifle, I’ve always really liked the look of carbon barrels with a tan/pale brown/sand type color.
I love the look of that rifle, I’ve always really liked the look of carbon barrels with a tan/pale brown/sand type color.
Regarding E=MC2 it seems there is a certain amount of interpretive misunderstanding, which I was hoping to avoid…
But since it’s being challenged I will briefly explain…
What E=MC2 illustrates at a high level is the exponential rise in energy required to increase the velocity of an object which makes speed of light space travel impossible.
Short of traveling at the speed of light, it also illustrates that to propel an object at twice a given speed requires the square of that energy.
In other words, for example… to propel an object to 1000 FPS requiring 5 grains of powder would require the energy of 5x5=25 grains of that same powder to propel the object to 2000 FPS.
You can further deduce that the forces of resistance placed upon the object in flight increase the same way.
In other words, the 2000 FPS projectile will drop to 1000 FPS in the square root of the time it will take to drop from 1000 FPS to zero.
So the faster you push the bullet, the faster it will slow down.
E=MC2 also illustrates why it takes 48 grains of powder will drive a 200 grain bullet 2550 FPS from a 308 Winchester case, but it takes 80 grains of powder (almost double) to drive the same 200 grain bullet to only 2950 FPS from a 300 Winchester Magnum.
But since it’s being challenged I will briefly explain…
What E=MC2 illustrates at a high level is the exponential rise in energy required to increase the velocity of an object which makes speed of light space travel impossible.
Short of traveling at the speed of light, it also illustrates that to propel an object at twice a given speed requires the square of that energy.
In other words, for example… to propel an object to 1000 FPS requiring 5 grains of powder would require the energy of 5x5=25 grains of that same powder to propel the object to 2000 FPS.
You can further deduce that the forces of resistance placed upon the object in flight increase the same way.
In other words, the 2000 FPS projectile will drop to 1000 FPS in the square root of the time it will take to drop from 1000 FPS to zero.
So the faster you push the bullet, the faster it will slow down.
E=MC2 also illustrates why it takes 48 grains of powder will drive a 200 grain bullet 2550 FPS from a 308 Winchester case, but it takes 80 grains of powder (almost double) to drive the same 200 grain bullet to only 2950 FPS from a 300 Winchester Magnum.
I have a 224v and a 22cm. Love both of them for different purposes. Valkyrie AR configuration with mk3 thermal is a light, fast and deadly night rig. I Put the 6.8spc away along with the 5.56 ar's.
This 22cm is my go to daytime varmit intruder on the farm. 80gr vlds from copper creek out to 600yds rings steel like church bells.
This 22cm is my go to daytime varmit intruder on the farm. 80gr vlds from copper creek out to 600yds rings steel like church bells.
If you don't mind me asking what's the barrel length and velocities you're getting with the copper creek? I'm thinking of building a 16-18 inch 22 creed as a varmint/truck gun for the farm, and will also run the copper creek ammo.
I haven't chronoed anything yet, just whatever copper creek says on box. Mine is finished at 18.5"ish if I remember correctly. Love the caliber.
