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PRS Talk New Classification for the Series

Can someone tell me which rifle, caliber, ammunition and scope I need to get to the prize table?
I'm not cheap, apparently just ill-informed.

Seriously, I'm pretty much a back of the pack guy at everything, but there is a personal satisfaction in hitting a three, lopping 2/10ths off a lap or clearing a stage. If I'm good enough to be a front runner, it's a good day.
 
Sorted by income level? That’s a great idea, but it would be a race to the bottom- literally. Only the rich can lose money for 10 years and afford all the toys they want. If you think you can’t compete now, wait until the accountants and tax attorneys get involved.
 
Can someone tell me which rifle, caliber, ammunition and scope I need to get to the prize table?
I'm not cheap, apparently just ill-informed.

Seriously, I'm pretty much a back of the pack guy at everything, but there is a personal satisfaction in hitting a three, lopping 2/10ths off a lap or clearing a stage. If I'm good enough to be a front runner, it's a good day.

Sure, just google “what the pros use...”

Step 1- Buy all the gears
Step 2- Enter all the matches
Step 3- Practice your “Match Winner Smile”

???
 
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I've heard of a very small handful of guys who get free stuff, and extremely discounted gear.... They are all top 15 shooters with many top 5 or 10... They also shoot a ton of matches every year and provide a lot of value for the sponsors because they win, and are constantly visible at matches... Not the 3 or 4 national matches most people shoot.
 
Crap, now I gotta get my tooth fixed.
Sure, just google “what the pros use...”

Step 1- Buy all the gears
Step 2- Enter all the matches
Step 3- Practice your “Match Winner Smile”

???
?
 
There is no denying that a MDT chassis with a Bartlein barrel, and Jewel trigger , with a Spuhr mount and Schmidt Bender has and advantage over the Ruger RPR with Vortex PST.
Both rifles are capable of shooting half MOA. Both rifles are capable of using the same 10 round AICS magazines, with or without extra baseplate extensions. Both rifles can have the same muzzle brake or suppressor, and neither rifle is so light as to constitute a serious disadvantage for spotting misses. Both can be chambered in 6mm Creedmoor, as well. The RPR can have the same arca-swiss rail as the MDT, since multiple companies make rails that attach via MLOK.

In total, the custom rifle might net you 1-2 extra points only if it's substantially heavier and in a lighter caliber. This would only be due to a lower recoil that allows you to spot misses more easily from an unsteady position, but then again you'd be more likely to miss in the first place since the hotter 6mm Creedmoor in the RPR would have a larger margin for error on wind than the slower calibers.

Both scopes are FFP. Both scopes have quality tracking that is usually dead-on for the entire adjustment range, or can be warrantied until a properly tracking scope is received. Both scopes have good options available for reticles that are useful on holdover stages. Both scopes are capable of adjusting from 5-25 power, with 25 power for prone stages like KYL racks and 10-14 for just about everything else.

In total, the Schmidt MIGHT net you a single point, and that's a big maybe. I've only ever seen a single target in all the competitions I've attended where the clarity of a S&B, NF, or TT (and the like) might provide an advantage over a PST. It was a day with heavy mirage, the target was small (2" square at 250 yards), and it had a grey background the same color as beaten up steel. Even with my Schmidt I had a hell of a time trying to see the plate, but luckily it was hung from a colored strap that made it easy to aim at the plate even without seeing it because you could just aim 1" under the end of the strap.

The high end scopes provide no quantifiable advantage, they just make the picture look a little clearer, are less likely to need warranty replacement or repair, and have some extra features for QoL such as additional reticle choice, smoother turret feel, and easier zero stops.

I agree....but can you deny that high end gear gives one an advantage over others?
I can and will deny that high end gear gives an advantage equal to more than about 2-4 shots over the course of a match, in a best case scenario for the high end gear. Once you reach the bare minimum requirements for gear, anything beyond that is mostly just for convenience or personal preference. The bare minimum requirements are below:

  • Rifle capable of at least 3/4 MOA groups
    • A bipod is also generally a must
  • Ballistic calculator (free apps for this available on any smartphone included) and/or DOPE book compiled with past data
  • Scope with reliable and accurate tracking, or at least a consistent tracking error that you have measured
    • Scope must be capable of resolving 1 MOA targets at up to ~1,200 yards - a feat accomplished easily by even the cheapest Athlon scopes
    • FFP is better than SFP, but provides no real potential advantages outside of holdover stages
  • A couple shooting bags for stability, which can be easily handmade using beans and fabric
High end bags are an advantage only in the fact that someone else has tested it to work and you don't have to put in the time to make something similar yourself. High end rifles are an advantage only in that they can help mask the flaws in someone's shooting fundamentals, because someone with solid fundamentals for recoil management and trigger control won't perform differently if they're shooting a 10lb rifle with a 5lb trigger or a 25lb rifle with a 0.5lb trigger. High end scopes provide image clarity, but even the cheapest optics out there have enough clarity to see the targets you shoot in a PRS match.

Shooter skill, on the other hand, is the reason that people with $8,000 rifle builds can end up in both first place and in last place. Give a top tier shooter that RPR with a Vortex PST and they'll still be a top tier shooter. Give a new shooter that $8,000 rifle setup and they'll still almost always place near the bottom of the match.

I know this because I was that new shooter with top of the line gear once. I worked out a deal with a local gun store where I did some sales and ammunition reloading work for them, and in exchange I got to use their demo rifle for PRS matches. The demo gun was a $5,000 Christensen TFM with a Tangent Theta and an Atlas bipod. They also let me use their Labradar and full reloading setup including a Prometheus powder measure. At the match I was able to borrow a RRS tripod from other shooters, a Kestrel for ballistic calculations, the adapters required to attach any arca accessory to my rifle, and whatever bags the people in my squad had brought with them. All I had of my own at the time was my phone's ballistic calculator and a pair of shooting bags (one Tactical Udder and a Reasor Precision rear bag).

All told that was about $17,000 worth of gear I had available for use at my first match. $5,000 rifle, $4,500 scope, $1,300 tripod, $5,100 powder measure, $600 Kestrel, and $500 in shooting bags or acra accessories.

I went to my first national match and scored 49 points. The winner (David Preston) had a rifle that cost about $4,000, a scope that cost $2,000, and the same kind of setup for tripod/bags/accessories. He did not have a Prometheus to load his ammo with, and both his rifle and scope were less expensive than what I was using. He still kicked my ass by hitting more than 2x the number of targets that I did. In fact there were only about 20 shooters that placed worse than I did at that match.

BOTTOM LINE
That $8,000 rifle and scope setup might gain you 4 points over the course of a match compared to the $2,000 RPR and Vortex PST setup. Doug Koenig, for example, still places in the top 20 at national matches regularly using his cheap production class setup.

Practice and experience will gain you literally 50 points or more over the course of a match, even if you're using cheaper gear.
 
Question for those who feel gear is too expensive to compete with sponsored shooters/winners of free stuff: How much have you spent on really good training and coaching from someone who knows how to teach the right things?

If you suck and keep sucking, do the appropriate thing and train. Training is NOT sending more bad shots down range from a preferred position at your favorite range. Get a good trainer to watch what you do and help correct deficiencies.
 
OP

You are from VA, when is the next match you are shooting?

Find a match and squad with Top Jimmy if he’s shooting.

That’s all I’m gonna say.

^^^^^^This 10000%. Im going to be honest earlier this year I thought like the OP. I was new to PRS and ignorant. I showed up to my first prs match earlier this year down at war rifles, with a new bone stock rem 700 pcr just so I could compete in production. Looked around at all of the custom gear and thought WTF did I get into. Oh well I'm just gonna send'em.
Met the guys in my squad and I see this guy with no cool guy shit. Spotter attached to a tripod with 2x4 and zip ties. Rifle had a raw just from the reamer finish. Stock consisted of duct tape and faith. No eberlestock just a effin messenger bag I think it was. No camo and cool pants, some Levi's and a t shirt.
After watching him shoot, I wanted kick my own ass for even considering that gear mattered. As a new competitor that right there motivated me more than anything to shoot and get better. Cause I sucked that match..???
To top it off, I think TopJimmy does it on purpose just out of principle that as long as the gun shoot straights the rest is all shooter.
That or the guy is actually Jason Bourne. I'm still undecided.
 
^^^^^^This 10000%. Im going to be honest earlier this year I thought like the OP. I was new to PRS and ignorant. I showed up to my first prs match earlier this year down at war rifles, with a new bone stock rem 700 pcr just so I could compete in production. Looked around at all of the custom gear and thought WTF did I get into. Oh well I'm just gonna send'em.
Met the guys in my squad and I see this guy with no cool guy shit. Spotter attached to a tripod with 2x4 and zip ties. Rifle had a raw just from the reamer finish. Stock consisted of duct tape and faith. No eberlestock just a effin messenger bag I think it was. No camo and cool pants, some Levi's and a t shirt.
After watching him shoot, I wanted kick my own ass for even considering that gear mattered. As a new competitor that right there motivated me more than anything to shoot and get better. Cause I sucked that match..???
To top it off, I think TopJimmy does it on purpose just out of principle that as long as the gun shoot straights the rest is all shooter.
That or the guy is actually Jason Bourne. I'm still undecided.
Great shooting with you man that was a TOUGH match for a new shooter.
 
^^^^^^This 10000%. Im going to be honest earlier this year I thought like the OP. I was new to PRS and ignorant. I showed up to my first prs match earlier this year down at war rifles, with a new bone stock rem 700 pcr just so I could compete in production. Looked around at all of the custom gear and thought WTF did I get into. Oh well I'm just gonna send'em.
Met the guys in my squad and I see this guy with no cool guy shit. Spotter attached to a tripod with 2x4 and zip ties. Rifle had a raw just from the reamer finish. Stock consisted of duct tape and faith. No eberlestock just a effin messenger bag I think it was. No camo and cool pants, some Levi's and a t shirt.
After watching him shoot, I wanted kick my own ass for even considering that gear mattered. As a new competitor that right there motivated me more than anything to shoot and get better. Cause I sucked that match..???
To top it off, I think TopJimmy does it on purpose just out of principle that as long as the gun shoot straights the rest is all shooter.
That or the guy is actually Jason Bourne. I'm still undecided.

This reminds me of another truism- Beware the guy that shows up to NoGi in a ratty tee shirt and gym shorts...
 
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I have both and iPhones are trash...must be my unrefined palate?
I would agree, but it's personal preference. Android is more customizable, iOS is more "smooth" out of the box. The debate between the two is kinda like the chassis vs stock debate - it doesn't matter but people are willing to start a holy war over it anyways.

As far as price goes, I could afford a 256GB iPhone XS Max since it's the same price as my 512GB S10+. What I definitely cannot afford, however, is something like a Galaxy Fold ($2,000) or the Huawei Mate X ($2,600). Seems like Android has the priciest phone options for now anyways, though that's mostly because they're foldable devices that Apple wouldn't dream of copying until a few years after other companies work out the kinks in the tech for them.
 
I didn’t pay for my iphone. My trust fund paid for it but there was a clause in it where I have to show up at these different plants and point to things and say fix it.

you're in management too I see
 
In my line of work I am around alot of people with very disposable incomes, a couple have decided to try out precision shooting. They always go straight in and buy an AI or a Cadex or ... and of course TT scope, and they need a mystery ranch backpack and a pelican with the 35 stickers they got off ebay because thats what they read is best and will make them a pro, and its just like the gear they had on that cool ROTC trip they took to Germany back in '06. Then when it comes down to pulling the trigger they get salty because some old fucker on social security with a Ruger American he just pulled out of a gun sock or a plano cleaned a kyl when they got 2 and then they go back to "professional fishing". Sadly the fuckers will horde up their gear and not sell it otherwise I would be a rich man and could afford to buy equipment to make me shoot better /sarcasm.

The proper saying is its not the Arrow its the Indian (Native American for the SJW).
 
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If we take the time to read all the information and thoughts within this thread, leaving out the personal attacks, there are some good questions here. IMO the biggest one being:

If a more budget minded rig like the RPR shooting .5 MOA is just as good as a custom Impact shooting .5 MOA why are so many shooting the custom rig?

Please don't use the "It's America and I can buy what I want". I truly understand that and believe that.

My point is, as shooters we are doing a lot of do as I say not as I do. New shooters are looking to see what they need to be competitive in this sport and they see the top shooter (for the most part) running mostly the top of the line stuff. Then they are told it's the shooter not the equipment.

Does this get this thread back to a civil discussion?


My reasoning is because God seen fit to give me ravishing good looks, a huge member and an octagonal left nut.... Oh yeah and I'm left handed and ruger dont make an RPR backwards.
 
What I definitely cannot afford, however, is something like a Galaxy Fold ($2,000) or the Huawei Mate X ($2,600). Seems like Android has the priciest phone options for now anyways, though that's mostly because they're foldable devices that Apple wouldn't dream of copying until a few years after other companies work out the kinks in the tech for them.

Well as cool as foldable phones are, Samsung just found out that they are not ready for prime time.
Probably still all good for Samsung however, because now they have an actual shipped folding phone to use as evidence next time Apple wants a billion dollars for rounded icon corners (after swiping slide to unlock from Android shamelessly).

The original iPhone was an era defining event and set the path for everybody's phones for the most part.

Then Apple left all the innovating to others and would ridicule them till they saw how popular something was and jumped in with a polished product that had all the rough edges sorted out. (Such as iPad, Large format phones, watches etc).
 
This thread is awesome! I have yet to shoot a match, and I am doing a custom build that in the end will cost more than the first three cars I bought combined, and that's before so the other cool shit I have bought, kestrel, lrf, bags, cases packs.

I can afford it, I know it doesn't give me an advantage, but it puts a smile on my face!

I get to learn from people I have met on this site, I am attending Frank's and Marc's training in Alaska next week, and I will join my first match in June. My expectations are as follows:
Meeting new people, getting feedback, observing style, technique, approach, and having fun!

I don't give a shit if I time out every stage and finish dead last, as long as i have fun, learn, and don't be the guy doing something stupid with respect to safety.
 
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Most of the good sho
I don't give a shit if I time out every stage and finish dead last, as long as i have fun, learn, and don't be the guy doing something stupid with respect to safety.

I always thought people did it to get cool pics for Instagram.
 
That too, I plan to take a selfie in front of the trophy table and lie to my wife!
7075778


This was the year I invested in the best baseball, football, basketball, and hockey gear!
 
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You need a rifle and ammo that will shoot under a minute. Practice and skill is everything beyond that. Percisionrifleblog is about equipment, so if you read that it’ll give you the false impression that’s what it’s all about. It isn’t.
 
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You need a rifle and ammo that will shoot under a minute. Practice and skill is everything beyond that. Percisionrifleblog is about equipment, so if you read that it’ll give you the false impression that’s what it’s all about. It isn’t.
That blog also does a lot of good research. Check out the field tests. Lots of good info.
 
everyone always chimes in, "spend less time hand loading and ore time shooting" in one form or another.

how long does it take you to fire 5-10 shots on a new load before stretching its legs.

strap on your magneto speed or turn on your lab radar and shoot 2-3 groups of a new load.

then shoot your practice ammo for distance

who reloads in the middle of the day when you could be shooting, 99.9% of reloading happens after hours
 
everyone always chimes in, "spend less time hand loading and ore time shooting" in one form or another.

how long does it take you to fire 5-10 shots on a new load before stretching its legs.

strap on your magneto speed or turn on your lab radar and shoot 2-3 groups of a new load.

then shoot your practice ammo for distance

who reloads in the middle of the day when you could be shooting, 99.9% of reloading happens after hours

youre missing the point of what theyre meaning...its for the guys who spend 90% of their time tweaking loads to get "perfect" groups and then miss a 2moa plate @ 500 yds...if they spent all the time practicing positions/wind calls, that they spend out shooting for groups, it would help them more than chasing that perfect group
 
I have been shooting a few matches the past couple years, and I’m gonna offer up this new classification.

I say we bust up levels by income.

We can have the Android shooters vs the IPhone shooters. The savage shooters vs the RPR shooters vs the Bergara shooters vs the APO shooters vs the totally I gots more fuckin money than all your asses total custom full sponsors rigs. Then we got the dudes that roll up in the Hyundai and Kias vs the the soccer moms mini vans with three crumb snatcher seats vs the the full “ get the fuck outta my way Ford Raptor bitches” We got the pack all your shit in a Walmart back pack vs the Kifaru , Mystery Ranch , Enerleestock. The bushnell lasers vs the “ I can see shit all the way to the equator Vextronix” The Swarovski spotters vs the Tasso. The Vortex PST vs the Tangent Theta. The “ let me buy a case of this custom factory shit cause I gots no time to reload” vs the holy crap I hope I can get this shit loaded by tomorrow before we leave.

Then we got the shirts vs the the “ well, maybe I can put off the new tires this month for the wife’s rig so I can pay the match fee for the shoot.

WTF? We are talking a PRODUCTION class below $2000 fuckin dollars. How the fuck does a 9-5 workin man expect to compete with this shit? A man gets up at 4 and works to 6 - 5 days a week and the has to take care of the family, and when he gets to the match he could finally pony up the fee he has to compete against this shit?

Somewhere in the mix the shooting world has gone the way of all other sports. What was initiated as a purest sport based upon skills, has bastardized itself to those who gots....and those that don’t. One can now buy their way into the prize table.

How about this for an example: back in the 50’s a dude climbed the highest mountain in the entire world with basic shit. He figured out the route and and made his own way and became the first human to stand on the highest point in all the earth. Today, if you can pony up 70- 80 grand, they will hold your hand to that same point and you can claim the same accomplishment.

Kinda the same shit with PRS .......

Stop whining
 
how does the shooting community sound when it makes statements like go be poor somewhere else or you made terrible decisions in life. These are laughable comments to me because it shows how shitty people are to others sometimes.
The shooting community sounds like reasonable people who understand how the real world works.

If your house gets flattened by a tornado, people will line up to help you out without being asked; at least in my part of the world. However, if you whine how unfair life is because your neighbor has nicer shit you will be told to STFU and improve your own lot.
 
New shooters are looking to see what they need to be competitive in this sport and they see the top shooter (for the most part) running mostly the top of the line stuff. Then they are told it's the shooter not the equipment.

Does this get this thread back to a civil discussion?
I will try to explain this to you as clearly as I can.

99% of new shooters are not self aware enough to understand that they can't shoot worth a shit. Their ego/self image tells them they are awesome shooters but their match results say otherwise. Result: cognitive dissonance.

In an effort to square that dissonance in their mind, they focus externally because their ego still doesn't allow them to focus where they should (on themselves). They see guys in sponsor shirts and gucci gear cleaning house and the same cognitive dissonance that they are trying to clear up stops them cold from understanding that the guys with gucci gear have laid down massive amount of time working to get where they are skill wise.

That cognitive dissonance is satisfied when they find a physical difference that they can latch on to. The most obvious one is the price of the stuff the cool kids use.
 
Separate it between those with ANY sponsors and those that don’t have any. Those with sponsors compete only with other sponsored shooters. It is like a garage mechanic trying to compete with a multimillion racing team with an unlimited budget. No way to be competitive unless you can match the money spent.

Then break down the unsponsored shooters to under $500, $500-$1,000 and above $1000.

It does seem silly to try to promote a series where you can’t be competitive unless you spend, spend, spend.
You have no earthly idea what those "sponsored shooter" shirts mean. None whatsoever.
 
You have no earthly idea what those "sponsored shooter" shirts mean. None whatsoever.
Bro, first off, you are late to the party..this thread died weeks ago. Everyone who had anything to say has already said it.

I will reiterate once again....the thread was for fun and thought. If you go back and read through the various posts you will see that I never attacked anyone specifically. Most who initially chimed in and told me to go fuck myself saw that I meant no harm toward any one particular shooter, group of shooter, shirt shooter or otherwise.

Now, I guess since you KNOW me and have taken it upon yourself to advise me to quit whining, AND that I will never succeed at anything, we must have shot several matches together and drank some whiskey while talking about how good or bad we did at the match. NO?

Well then, I feel confident in what I’m about to say....

I DO know what “sponsored shooter” means. It means that the shooter has achieved a level of proficiency that lends itself to the sponsors products and the promotion of those products. It means that the the sponsor expects to increase sales because the dude wearing the shirt is winning and shooting their product, and now everyone else wants that product because they think that they will shoot that good if they have it. It means we shooters will spend infinite amounts of money on said products to try and achieve that level of shooting.

Now since again, you obviously know me, know where and when I shoot, how many matches I shoot, and what level of competitor I am, let me tell you what sponsored shooter doesn’t mean.

It doesn’t meant that you and your boys show up to the match in your matching bright clean team jerseys and hang out together without talking to anyone else. It doesn’t mean that you all have the same fucking rifles, the same fucking sponsored ammo, the same fucking sponsored scopes, and the same dope for all of above. So that when you go to the stage one of you are the assigned patsy to get the wind call and the others shoot off that call. It doesn’t mean that while the rest of us walk the course between stages, you and your asshole buds ride your 20K buggie to the next stage and are all fresh while them remainder of shooters all sweaty and tired try to get on target. AND MOST CERTAINLY IT DONT FUCKING MEAN that since you “ sponsored shooters” , which we lesser fucksticks have no idea about, don’t get to go to the prize table “ cause I’m sure you fucking EARNED it. And pick up the sponsored product that is on your clean jersey, and let some poor non winning, ass complaining, whining piece of shit like me buy it from you here on the Hide for a top price when you got the first one from your sponsor and the second in the match. OH FUCK! I gots me the next bestest piece of gear ⚙️ n new world cause that dude won the match with that shit. NOW I CAN BE JUST LIKE 308pirate.

Been there, seen it, lived it, got the t-shirt.

Of course you already obviously know that from the familiarity of your post

At the end of the day I would say we should sit down and discuss our perceived differences over a good bourbon, but the more I read threads from Dicks like you, I’m inclined to remain in my camp tell tell you to respectfully go and FUCK YOURSELF.