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Bullet runout

B

Brian o 23

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 12, 2018
160
18
#1
Hello,
I'm wondering how to minimize run-out in the reloading process.
In this youtube video below he uses a Redding Body Die to size his brass and bump the shoulder back, then he switches to a Lee Precision Collet Neck Sizing Die to size the neck and minimize run out which I thought was something I like to try but before I purchase these dies I wanted to hear how others on how there process for concentricity is done.
Right know I have a set of Redding Premium Series 2 Die set in .308 Winchester and I'm wondering if this FL die is inducing run-out in my reloads and if it would be better to switch to a FL body die and then the Lee neck size die.
Thanks
Brian


 
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#2
Wouldn't the first thing to do is measure your runout somehow? You sound like you want to fix something you do not know if it is present.
You need to measure sized brass in the neck area for runout, then seat a bullet and measure that to figure out just where runout is being imparted into your operation.
Are there better dies than what you are using? Well yes there is, but until you know for sure if you have runout, it is way to early to think about it.
I'm not clicking the vid, but looking at the pic of the 2 groups, with 0 runout, you could shoot both groups alternatively all day long. I find it best not to read and pursue perceived issues until you know that they are fixable.
 
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#4
I have a concentricity gauge and I can get anywhere fron 1 to 8 thousands runout and like my reloads to be more inconstant 1 to 2 thousands would be great.
 
#5
How do you measure this though? It would be better if you laid out your process and isolate for variables like neck wall thickness for example, and figure out exactly where the runout is coming from.
 
#6
I think your suggestion of checking at each process and see the runout at each set. Right now after I've loaded I case gauge my loads and check runout I see its not the best time to do runout checks.
I'm new to precision reloading mostly reload my rounds for hunting 200 yards and closer.
 
#7
Can someone explain there process for reloading precision ammo I guess is the question I should have asked instead of bullet runout. That was my bad sorry for the miss communication of thoughts.
 
#8
Brian o 23 said:
I have a concentricity gauge and I can get anywhere fron 1 to 8 thousands runout and like my reloads to be more inconstant 1 to 2 thousands would be great.
Click to expand...
What gauge do you use? Are you giving us total indicated runout<the full number, or are you dividing the number in half like you need to? If not, your numbers are now .0005-004".
So many gauges out, I never could run one without a wheel, I could fat finger runout that was not there.
On helping you load precision ammo, we can help, but list your process in order accurately for us, then we can make you feel small,lol
 
#9
My process for bolt action .308
* Measure case fire brass for headspace. Headspace gauge 1.619"
* Resize bass and slowly bump brass .001 at a time till I get a smooth bolt closure with firing pin and ejector removed. Closure 1.615"
* Trim brass to 2.005"
*Clean primer pocket and flash hole.
* Tumble brass.
* Charge brass, IMR 4064 42gr Federal 210M primer.
* Load Serria 165gr SBT to 2.800" OAL
* Measure case weight and run out with Sinclair concentrate gauge.
High measurement could be .001 to .008".
Please help me impove
 
#10
Brian o 23 said:
My process for bolt action .308
* Measure case fire brass for headspace. Headspace gauge 1.619"
* Resize bass and slowly bump brass .001 at a time till I get a smooth bolt closure with firing pin and ejector removed. Closure 1.615"
* Trim brass to 2.005"
*Clean primer pocket and flash hole.
* Tumble brass.
* Charge brass, IMR 4064 42gr Federal 210M primer.
* Load Serria 165gr SBT to 2.800" OAL
* Measure case weight and run out with Sinclair concentrate gauge.
High measurement could be .001 to .008".
Please help me impove
Click to expand...
Would it be possible to post some pics of your groups, best, medium, and worst.
Also, on runout, for you to have .008", the numbers you'd be reading would be .016", the TIR, divide that number in half for true runout. So that would put your 8 number at .004", now there is differing philosophies here, but I've seen .004" shoot fine, but all cases had about the same numbers. YOu seem to have a grab bag, which leads me to believe you yourself are skewing the test.
Fired brass coming from your chamber should be in it's truest state, measure some fired cases for runout.

But let's look at your groups first, maybe a change in powder charge or a seat depth tweak may shore up what you have. Plus, not related, but a 4 thou bump on your shoulders is getting excessive.
 
#13
My process: new case:



  1. Uniform primer pockets using Sinclair uniform tool
  2. Uniform flash holes (Sinclair or K&M tool)
  3. Use Sinclair neck turning mandrel to uniform necks (some may be bent from factory handling)
  4. chamfer/deburr case mouths
  5. Prime, charge (medium charge to fire-form brass fully) seat bullet.
No need to bother with 1 + 2 if using Lapua or Peterson brass.



2nd firing:

  1. Check concentricity of Necks using rcbs concentricity gauge. Because of fire-forming they should be right around 1 thousandths. (Not really needed but I like to see what I’m working with)
  2. Measure neck thickness with ball micrometer. If I see differences in neck , I’ll neck turn. ( not needed for quality brass like Lapua or Peterson)
  3. I use forester or mighty armory to full length resize and bump shoulder 1 thousandths (Lately I’ve been trying resize with no expander and then expanding necks with Sinclair turning mandrel for .002 neck tension - I haven’t noticed a difference). Check case lengths and trim if needed (I just use a reloading books max case length and if any are over that, trim. No need to chamfer/deburr unless you trimmed. Prime, charge and seat bullet!(I use forester or Redding competition seater). Once in a while if I haven’t changed components, I’ll spot check concentricity after resizing and seating.


For the bullet seating process, if I change bullets or lot of bullets I’ll measure about 5 bullets using the Hornady bullet compare/calipers and the Hornady OAL Gauge to get the measurements to the lands of my rifle. I usually seat 10-20 thousandths off the lands. If I’m changing lots and the measurement to the lands is different I’ll adjust my overall cartridge length to match the off the lands measurement I had prior so if I was seating 10 thou off lands I would do the same with new lot.

Additional notes. Neck turning if you do it, flash hole uniforming, and primer pocket uniforming is only needed once. Chamfer/deburr once as well until you have to trim the cases.

Some of this may seem overkill but I like perfection :)

Hopefully I didn’t miss anything. I’m still half asleep!
 
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#14
After a while you will get tired of this nonsense. Your rifle is zeroed. Reload a batch using what you have. The easiest thing to do is index several cases for run out and several not indexed. We're talking about enough for thirty 5 shot groups. Don't use any round that has extraordinary run out for your sample. Take the indexed cases and chamber each round the same based on the index and run several groups. Take the non indexed cases and shoot for groups. Chances are you might have a small zero offset with the index cases. You might even find better groups with index cases. If either case is true your rifle is finicky. Tight is what frustrates the shit out of anal people. I prefer a little less tolerances for peace of mind and enjoyment. Nevertheless, % of hit probability between the two batches should be immaterial. If not, than what you have is a pain in the ass. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
 
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#15
As others have said, if you're getting excessive runout, you need to track and see what part of the process is inducing it.

Start with fired brass and measure it using a "Concentrically Gauge". Sinclair, RCBS, Hornady, Forster and others make such a gauge. Ideally you should have very low runout otherwise your chamber sucks.

Next, do your next steps and measure runout again when you size the case. If you get runout here, find different sizing dies.

Lastly, measure runout again once you seat a bullet. Again, if you're getting a increase runout here, you know you need to new seating die or to reconsider how you seat bullets.

I use redding bushing dies, Sinclair Expander Mandrel, and Sinclair Micro-Adjust Seater die and at max I get 0.003" Runout. Typically 0.001-0.0015" average.
 
#16
I wandered down that rabbit hole a bit ago and compared runout for a Redding full length die with the collet vs a Redding body die and Lee collet die. The press was a Forster Co-Ax and concentricity tool was 21 Century.

Across a 20 case sample of same lot once fired Norma 6.5 CM brass the second method gave me about .0006 runout and the first method gave about .0008 runout.

My conclusion was that the first method was best because it was faster but slightly more expensive. As for runout, I consider them to be equal.
 
#17
Anthonyc said:
My process: new case:



  1. Uniform primer pockets using Sinclair uniform tool
  2. Uniform flash holes (Sinclair or K&M tool)
  3. Use Sinclair neck turning mandrel to uniform necks (some may be bent from factory handling)
  4. chamfer/deburr case mouths
  5. Prime, charge (medium charge to fire-form brass fully) seat bullet.
No need to bother with 1 + 2 if using Lapua or Peterson brass.



2nd firing:

  1. Check concentricity of Necks using rcbs concentricity gauge. Because of fire-forming they should be right around 1 thousandths. (Not really needed but I like to see what I’m working with)
  2. Measure neck thickness with ball micrometer. If I see differences in neck , I’ll neck turn. ( not needed for quality brass like Lapua or Peterson)
  3. I use forester or mighty armory to full length resize and bump shoulder 1 thousandths (Lately I’ve been trying resize with no expander and then expanding necks with Sinclair turning mandrel for .002 neck tension - I haven’t noticed a difference). Check case lengths and trim if needed (I just use a reloading books max case length and if any are over that, trim. No need to chamfer/deburr unless you trimmed. Prime, charge and seat bullet!(I use forester or Redding competition seater). Once in a while if I haven’t changed components, I’ll spot check concentricity after resizing and seating.


For the bullet seating process, if I change bullets or lot of bullets I’ll measure about 5 bullets using the Hornady bullet compare/calipers and the Hornady OAL Gauge to get the measurements to the lands of my rifle. I usually seat 10-20 thousandths off the lands. If I’m changing lots and the measurement to the lands is different I’ll adjust my overall cartridge length to match the off the lands measurement I had prior so if I was seating 10 thou off lands I would do the same with new lot.

Additional notes. Neck turning if you do it, flash hole uniforming, and primer pocket uniforming is only needed once. Chamfer/deburr once as well until you have to trim the cases.

Some of this may seem overkill but I like perfection :)

Hopefully I didn’t miss anything. I’m still half asleep!
Click to expand...
Thanks
 
#19
If you really want to drive youself crazy, segregate the loads with the most run out and see what they do to you groups? If I get a "flyer", I mark that case to see if it produces a flyer the next loading.

I my case "crazy" isn't much of a drive.... just a short walk!

Bill
 
#20
bsekf said:
If you really want to drive youself crazy, segregate the loads with the most run out and see what they do to you groups? If I get a "flyer", I mark that case to see if it produces a flyer the next loading.

I my case "crazy" isn't much of a drive.... just a short walk!

Bill
Click to expand...
I can do that . Thanks
 
#21
It could simply be the brass. Did you check neck wall thickness? Turn Necks? If you want to know what is going on and fix any issues you have to look at it all. Cheap brass is inconsistent. I just did some 308 stuff for a friend and the best over the counter brass (locally) for the $ was the Sig Sauer brass. It was consistent in OAL, neck wall thickness and flash holes were clean.
 
#23
Brian o 23 said:
Thanks I have LC brass right now but I plan to buy lapua.
Click to expand...

I don't have a lot of it but much of the LC brass I have is very consistent in weight.
With a little sorting and if you are heavily invested in LC brass some neck turning would produce results similar to what can be achieved even with Lapua brass.

If you dont feel like going to all that effort then Lapua, Alpha or one of the other premium brass makes is definitely the way to go for out of the box consistency for new brass.
 
#24
XLR308 said:
I don't have a lot of it but much of the LC brass I have is very consistent in weight.
With a little sorting and if you are heavily invested in LC brass some neck turning would produce results similar to what can be achieved even with Lapua brass.

If you dont feel like going to all that effort then Lapua, Alpha or one of the other premium brass makes is definitely the way to go for out of the box consistency for new brass.
Click to expand...
Thanks I can try that I have about 2k of lc brass.
 
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