Rebarreling a 5.56/.223 upper ??

[10ring'r]

Have a 18" Bull-barreled (S.S.) upper with a Wylde chamber and my groups are starting to open up (3500 rnds.). I have been looking at W.O.A. Bart./Krieg. barrels and can't decide to go with either a 20" 1n7T or a 22" 1n8T S.S. Bull-barrel. I use this gun for prone/bench shoots (paper/steel) and hump it time to time for yotes, so I really don't want to add any more weight than need be (slightly crippled up).
My question is, which barrel would net me the highest MV/accuracy (I know it all depends on ammo used and D.A.)??
I mainly shoot B.H. 5.56 77gr. TMK's and net between 2600-2650 fps. out of the 18" barrel.
I would like to try the Barnes 85gr. matchburner ammo at some point in time, just for SnG's, so I'm thinking the 20" 1n7 would be my go-to, but with the extra 2" of the 1n8, that might work also?
Thanks for any and all suggestions in advance.
Mac

 

[Greg Langelius *]

As a fellow cripp, I still believe in long, heavy barrels.

After seeing my Stag Model 6, my shooting Buddy decided to go with a 24" 1:8" heavy barrel, and he chose this one; largely because of its affordability.

It turned out to be an outstanding choice despite the low pricetag. He was really surprised when it shot Fed AE 223 55gr FMJBT like it was match ammo at 100yd.

I shoot various brands of 75gr factory match ammo (PPU 75gr 223 Match, Hornady 223 75gr HPBT-Match) in my Stag Model 6, (and now, mostly) a handload using Starline brass, HDY .224 75gr HBPT-Match at magazine length (2.255"-2.260"), 23.5gr of Varget, and CCI BR-4. I have yet to test the IMI 5.56 NATO 77gr Razor Core load, but I expect it will be excellent.

My last serious competitive outing (Berger SW LR Nationals, MR 600 F T/R) 2017, this handload was used in both the Stag 6, and in my Savage 11VT .223.

This is the updated version that used to be the Stag 6. At the time I bought the first Stag 6 (over a decade ago, I currently own 2), Stag was offering a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee with factory match ammo at 100yd. I used PPU 75gr 223 Match, and achieved that several times.

Scope.

Greg

 

[10ring'r]

Thanks for replying, greg.
My 18", 1n8, shoots Gorilla .223 Match 77gr. SMK's and the one mentioned in the OP, into .65-.80 moa groups @ 100yds. These are the only two types/brands of ammo I have found, that shoot well in that barrel.
I do know that the 24-26" barrels, would squeeze all the available MV out of .223 ammo, since that is the length that it's tested with. I'm partial to the 5.56mm B.H. ammo, since it groups, on avg., a little flatter/tighter and more consistently (higher MV). I have been using it for my 600yd. shoots. I did think about just going with a 24-26" barrel, but they make an AR look sooo gangly/fugly, if it was a chassis gun/bolt action, then yeh, I could see it.
Jury is still out and again, thanks for your input. Mac

 

[bfoosh006]

I'd stick with the 1n7T . Barrel choice is a tough call... better odds with a better more respected barrel producer.

My Fulton Armory / Krieger 20" 1n7.7T , shoots 75gr Hornady Steel Match crazy well. And Loves the ( no longer produced ) Creedmoor Sports 77gr SMK... both out to 794yds.

FWIW... have you tried the various other ammo makers ?

https://atlantaarms.com/rifle/5-56-223/

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/category/Creedmoor-Ammunition

 

[FCS]

20”, +2 gas, 7 twist will do everything you are asking. Better to have a little extra twist than be shy on needed twist.
If you need extra FPS, go 22” w/+2” gas but only gaining about 30-40 fps over a 20”.

I’ve been very happy with Craddock Precision as I can get a custom contour, +2” gas system and desired twist rate.

 

[Codiekfx400]

I your ammo is seated to magazine length there is no need for a 7 twist. If your single loading a 7 twist could be what you need. I have a 7 twist Krieger and I wish it was a 8 twist. But if your never going to shoot a bullet less than 55 grains in weight the 7 twist will work. At one time Keystone accuracy was doing Krieger ar barrels for super cheap. I would check with them for a barrel. Or woa is very good as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

FWIW, the Savage 11VT I mentioned above that shoots the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match has a 24: 1:9" barrel.

Greg

 

[10ring'r]

I'd stick with the 1n7T . Barrel choice is a tough call... better odds with a better more respected barrel producer.

My Fulton Armory / Krieger 20" 1n7.7T , shoots 75gr Hornady Steel Match crazy well. And Loves the ( no longer produced ) Creedmoor Sports 77gr SMK... both out to 794yds.

FWIW... have you tried the various other ammo makers ?

https://atlantaarms.com/rifle/5-56-223/

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/category/Creedmoor-Ammunition

Haven't tried the two you mentioned, but, I've tried a boatload of diff. Match ammos (Hornady, Federal, SSA, Win., etc.), in both 5.56/.223. Actually, the Hornady 73gr. stuff works well too.
I'm in agreement with the 1n7T, would probably be the best. I'm like everyone else, want it all for nothing! Thanks for your input. Mac

 

[10ring'r]

20”, +2 gas, 7 twist will do everything you are asking. Better to have a little extra twist than be shy on needed twist.
If you need extra FPS, go 22” w/+2” gas but only gaining about 30-40 fps over a 20”.

I’ve been very happy with Craddock Precision as I can get a custom contour, +2” gas system and desired twist rate.

Didn't think of the +2 gas. My 18" is a middy, but going to a rifle gas would probably be the smart thing to do. I was just cruising the W.O.A. site, when I was deciding to do this, but I will check into Craddock Pre..Thanks! Mac

 

[10ring'r]

I your ammo is seated to magazine length there is no need for a 7 twist. If your single loading a 7 twist could be what you need. I have a 7 twist Krieger and I wish it was a 8 twist. But if your never going to shoot a bullet less than 55 grains in weight the 7 twist will work. At one time Keystone accuracy was doing Krieger ar barrels for super cheap. I would check with them for a barrel. Or woa is very good as well.

I was looking at the 1n7T, just for possibly being able to shoot the heavier (85gr.) Barnes stuff. This gun will not be shooting anything lighter/shorter, than 69gr. factory available ammo. I figured that since I didn't want to go as long as 24"-26", a 20", 1n7T, would net me better results (compromise between MV & stabilization). Best of both worlds, I guess. Thanks for the reply! Mac

 

[10ring'r]

FWIW, the Savage 11VT I mentioned above that shoots the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match has a 24: 1:9" barrel.

Greg

Actually, I looked at a bunch of Savage AR's when I first got into the AR craze, at my LGS. Sad part is, I bought this particular one instead and the manuf. is not in business any longer. I just sold off a few rifles that I wasn't shooting anymore, so I guess I need to un-ass some cash and buy another one! Mac

 

[Longshot85]

After having various lengths and profiles on various rifles both ARs and bolt guns.....I finally did an SPRish build with an 18 inch WOA SPR .223 Wylde barrel. It's an absolute hammer and in my eyes is the best all around barrel for an accurate AR shooting beyond 100 yards.

There are a handful of top AR barrel manufacturers and all seem to make top quality products.

Sorry if I can't provide specific useful info on 20 inch vs 22 inch because after having my 18 in SPR barrel i don't see the need for a longer barrel in an AR15.

If you are thinking longer range and already have an 18 inch 5.56 barrel........would a different caliber would tickle your fancy more?

 

[Greg0326]

I run a 1:7, 18” Rainier Arms UltraMatch barrel in my AR. It prints dime sized groups at 100 yards with Black Hills 77gr and Prime 77gr without fail. I can consistently connect with 1-1.5 MOA plate out to 880. It’s an absolute hammer. I believe they use Shillen blanks for their barrels.

 

[10ring'r]

After having various lengths and profiles on various rifles both ARs and bolt guns.....I finally did an SPRish build with an 18 inch WOA SPR .223 Wylde barrel. It's an absolute hammer and in my eyes is the best all around barrel for an accurate AR shooting beyond 100 yards.

There are a handful of top AR barrel manufacturers and all seem to make top quality products.

Sorry if I can't provide specific useful info on 20 inch vs 22 inch because after having my 18 in SPR barrel i don't see the need for a longer barrel in an AR15.

If you are thinking longer range and already have an 18 inch 5.56 barrel........would a different caliber would tickle your fancy more?

Yep, been tossing around the idea of a 6.5 Creed lately. Why I was thinking a longer/faster barrel, was I mainly shoot a 600yd. series during the summer and my 18" 1n8T barrel can hold, if I can do my part and have little wind, under .50 moa. Last time I shot it, I was able to squeeze a .43 moa group.
Actually, I like shooting, what my wife calls "whiffle bullets", small caliber rounds, more challenging, cheaper and I can shoot it all day long and not feel like I've had the shit kicked out of me. I used to shoot .308/.270/30-06/.300 Win.mag., back in my Elk days, fun, but I'm good with it now. 6.5 Creed. would be the most I would go at this time in my life. Mac

 

[10ring'r]

I run a 1:7, 18” Rainier Arms UltraMatch barrel in my AR. It prints dime sized groups at 100 yards with Black Hills 77gr and Prime 77gr without fail. I can consistently connect with 1-1.5 MOA plate out to 880. It’s an absolute hammer. I believe they use Shilen blanks for their barrels.

Mine can do nickle sized, 5 shot groups at 100yds. also, but, it's starting to spread out a little now (3500+ rnds.), hence the reason for rebarreling. Thanks for another barrel option to check into. Mac

 

[Stavey]

You only live once
Give Craddock Precision or Compass lake engineering a call .

 

[Greg0326]

You only live once
Give Craddock Precision or Compass lake engineering a call .

I also have a Craddock Precision barrel in my AR-10. She hammers. It’s a Criterion blank chambered in .308. Paul talked me into buying the Criterion over the Bartlein when I called them to talk about options. I couldn’t be happier with it. He also offers a military discount, just need to call and ask.

This was a 5 shot group with FGMM 168gr. It’s a 16” 1:10

 

[Stavey]

I also have a Craddock Precision barrel in my AR-10. She hammers. It’s a Criterion blank chambered in .308. Paul talked me into buying the Criterion over the Bartlein when I called them to talk about options. I couldn’t be happier with it. He also offers a military discount, just need to call and ask.

This was a 5 shot group with FGMM 168gr. It’s a 16” 1:10

I just recently ordered a 6.5 Bart and a 223 Bart from Compass Lake . Funny thing Paul told me the Criterion were hammers that can hang with the best of them. I told him that I wanted the absolute best he had to offer and he said “ Bartlein without a doubt..” Craddock just spun me a 308 barrel and when I told them I wanted the best their response was the exact same Bartlein. In the end you can’t go wrong with either. Happy Shooting

 

[Greg0326]

I just recently ordered a 6.5 Bart and a 223 Bart from Compass Lake . Funny thing Paul told me the Criterion were hammers that can hang with the best of them. I told him that I wanted the absolute best he had to offer and he said “ Bartlein without a doubt..” Craddock just spun me a 308 barrel and when I told them I wanted the best their response was the exact same Bartlein. In the end you can’t go wrong with either. Happy Shooting

I asked a similar question and he did say Bartlein, and then he said “but...”. He then proceeded to say the same thing about the Criterion being able to shoot with everything else. I figured why not. Haven't regretted it for a min.

 

[Stavey]

I agree . I just planned on a BART when I called otherwise I’d have a criterion myself

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Creed's a good choice, and one that I'd make except for my 20 year addiction to the 260 Rem.

After researching and researching some more, and finding out that building up a .260 Rem AR-10 was gonna cost me at least a kidney; I went down the 6.5 Grendel path, and I'm still down in the foothills of that climb-out. Going in with both hands; I have two, a 20" and a 24".

I'm making all of the beginner mistakes, and am awaiting delivery of my JP Improved 6.5 Grendel extractor. I broke it when I decided that the max published loads weren't generating any alarming pressure signs. Hoo boy, first charge increment above published max, and the first round snapped off the extractor hook. Facepalm!

Considering that the additional four inches of barrel length was probably significantly prolonging dwell time and not helping with the issue; I'm going to leap right out there and suggest that 20" oughta do just fine. I went with the Gen 2 bolt/barrel package for both rifles.

It's an option that put some more Whomp (or maybe some less Wimp, anyway...) into the AR-15 design.

Greg

 

[Molon]

I was looking at the 1n7T, just for possibly being able to shoot the heavier (85gr.) Barnes stuff.

a couple of data points . . .


> Barnes factory loaded 85 grain Match Burner

> 20" Lothar Walter barrel with 1:8" twist

> 10-shot group at 100 yards

> extreme spread = 0.76"

.

.

> hand-loaded Barnes 85 grain Match Burner

> 24" Krieger barrel with 1:7.7" twist

> 10-shot group at 100 yards

> extreme spread = 0.428"

....

 

[10ring'r]

a couple of data points . . .


> Barnes factory loaded 85 grain Match Burner

> 20" Lothar Walter barrel with 1:8" twist

> 10-shot group at 100 yards

> extreme spread = 0.76"

.

.

> hand-loaded Barnes 85 grain Match Burner

> 24" Krieger barrel with 1:7.7" twist

> 10-shot group at 100 yards

> extreme spread = 0.428"

....

Thanks Molon, for replying to this. I've read numerous other ballistics threads you've written and want to compliment you on all the work you've done to keep us more informed, a Big Thanks!
I've shot the Barnes factory 85gr. ammo, thru the 18" barrel mentioned (Wilson Arms, I believe) and did not get the same results as yourself (.90-.98"/5 shot groups). I decided to try this ammo, due to your write-up and because it required at least a 1n8T barrel, I figured, why not? I do not reload, so I have to depend on mag. length factory ammo, to take care of business with. I'm probably guessing, that if I would of had at least a 20" barrel, my results would have been better. I have been going thru the C.L.E. site and checking boxes for Krieg., Criter., Bart., barrels, decisions...decisions. IF, my results would have been as good as your 20" L.W. barrel group, I would have been happy right there. Maybe 1n8T would be good enough, I just have to get a better quality barrel, a couple extra inches and be on my way. I would like to shoot the heaviest possible projectile, for my 600yd. comps.. I really d/n want to have a barrel over 22", but that 24" is looking quite appealing, at the moment. Again, Thank you very much for the help and also for giving me a couple of more ideas for my barrel replacement. Mac

 

[10ring'r]

Creed's a good choice, and one that I'd make except for my 20 year addiction to the 260 Rem.

After researching and researching some more, and finding out that building up a .260 Rem AR-10 was gonna cost me at least a kidney; I went down the 6.5 Grendel path, and I'm still down in the foothills of that climb-out. Going in with both hands; I have two, a 20" and a 24".

I'm making all of the beginner mistakes, and am awaiting delivery of my JP Improved 6.5 Grendel extractor. I broke it when I decided that the max published loads weren't generating any alarming pressure signs. Hoo boy, first charge increment above published max, and the first round snapped off the extractor hook. Facepalm!

Considering that the additional four inches of barrel length was probably significantly prolonging dwell time and not helping with the issue; I'm going to leap right out there and suggest that 20" oughta do just fine. I went with the Gen 2 bolt/barrel package for both rifles.

It's an option that put some more Whomp (or maybe some less Wimp, anyway...) into the AR-15 design.

Greg

I also thought about the .260, looked real promising, but ammo was hard to find and I don't reload. The Grendel could be the next viable option. I've read up on it at length. Who knows, once I get the house remodeled and the wife has a smile on her face again, I can divert more cash towards my hobbies. Thanks for replying. Mac

 

[Stavey]

I just had a 16” Bartlein 1/7.7 spun by CLE with the CLE chamber. Ive owned a lot of barrels over the years . That being said I shot my smallest 5 round group I’ve ever shot. I tested out 10 rounds and none were over .900”. Smallest group was .178” . That was lake city brass ,wolf magnum srp, 69 SMK, and 24.4g varget. I actually had a 6.5 Bartlein spun by CLE recently and shot my best 6.5 groups to date with that barrel as well.
Happy Shooting !

 

[10ring'r]

I just had a 16” Bartlein 1/7.7 spun by CLE with the CLE chamber. Ive owned a lot of barrels over the years . That being said I shot my smallest 5 round group I’ve ever shot. I tested out 10 rounds and none were over .900”. Smallest group was .178” . That was lake city brass ,wolf magnum srp, 69 SMK, and 24.4g varget. I actually had a 6.5 Bartlein spun by CLE recently and shot my best 6.5 groups to date with that barrel as well.
Happy Shooting !

I've got a 16" 1n9T E.R.Shaw barrelled upper, that shoots .223 Win. Match 69gr. SMK's, under .5", 5 shot groups @ 100yds.. Don't know how well it would group now, due to the fact, it has over 5k rounds thru it now and I mainly use it for a general use gun, shooting mostly 55-62gr. FMJ ammo. Probably will be swapping that barrel out soon also. Mac