- Thread starter Chasingpro
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Seekins or Geissele?
I have a couple POFs that are crazy accurate but the chambers are a hair tight and I hear quality has gone downhill lately.
I have a couple POFs that are crazy accurate but the chambers are a hair tight and I hear quality has gone downhill lately.
For a duty rifle I don't think that you would go wrong with a DD or BCM. Having three DD rifles, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up another if I had a need to.
There are also some pretty good other options within a few hundred dollars of those two you listed.
There are also some pretty good other options within a few hundred dollars of those two you listed.
At the 2000 price point I would save a few hundred more and buy a Knights Armament.
Find a used SR15 Mod 0, 1 or 2. Otherwise BCM makes the best Carbines that aren't Knights. POF makes toys and DD brings nothing to the table that BCM doesn't do better for less money.
I have to agree with Doc. DD > BCM any day.
So I messaged the guys at knights for pricing. I qualified for the military discount program there. I think that is the way to go. What are people paying on average for these beauties?
Daniel Defense actually provides their barrels for the improved upper receiver group in use by our military and make The RIS II also used by the military. BCM doesn't make jack shit for the military nor do they even offer a mil discount. Daniel Defense > BCM every day if the week and twice on Sunday.
And that means......
DD barrels are decent but that's about where it ends. BCM basically took Colt quality/QC/QA and replicated it then innovated years ago and brings a new standard today. DD really brings nothing to the table today. They are like Noveske, overpriced decent stuff beyond its time. If you want good quality hard use tools that won't break the bank, BCM is where you go. RIS II is going away and the difference between a Colt/DD/FN/CBM CMV barrel is nil. BCM offers much better profiles and you can actually buy them.
What does a military discount have to do with anything? The reason half of these companies can offer a .mil discount is their margins are so large that they can afford it. BCM runs on much smaller margins and if you know how much they spend ensuring you get a top notch product, you would understand. A $1800 DD gun costs the same $1200 BCM gun costs to make, except BCM probably spent more in QC/QA and ensuring every part met spec. You can also buy an upper and lower, slap it together yourself and save the FET which is around 11% of the price. You should educate yourself on these products a bit more.
I'm personally a BCM fan because of the price point relative to the quality. I'm not in a career where I can frivolously throw dollar signs at the most expensive equipment. Bang for your buck matters for me so I go with BCM for that reason.
I love my POF. It's super accurate and the quality is awesome! The only downfall is it's not very modular with the direct impingement. I haven't been able to find aftermarket barrels or handrails. It's also on the heavy side for an AR. You can't go wrong with it. Like I said, I love mine, but there are a few downfalls.
I’d pick a DD over anything else at this point..... My DD barrels all just plain shoot.
The PSA fanboys also have rifles that jam constantly and prove their unreliability in the field. I haven't had a single issue with any BCM firearm that I have used. They run, they are plenty accurate for a fighting rifle, and they are durable.
Also, to be clear, I'm not knocking on DD and neither am I saying that BCM is better than them. I'm just saying that I feel BCM is the right option for me given my life circumstance and financial concerns.
Never had a POF, but I've had a few BCMs and a couple DDs. I liked them both and would buy another BCM and pass on another DD. I had a bad bolt in one of my DDs, never had an problems whatsoever in any BCM I've owned or any of my friends rifles. The DD was easily more accurate which was nice when I used it hunting, but I don't hunt with AR's anymore so that advantage is lost on me. I don't like the furniture on the DD's so it's something I always had to change which sucks on a $1500+/- rifle. I feel like my BCM will just work no matter what, weather that is warranted doesn't matter I guess, it still makes me feel good.
Nice to hear from someone who has personally used both brands. Good stuff. Thanks.
I have a POF 415 and it's a good rifle, but it's not my go to rifle. I have several BCM uppers on AP lowers and like them. Also, I have a few Geissele uppers on AP lowers and like those too. The POF tends to be heavier, but is very accurate. I tend to grab the lighter rifle and it's a BCM 11.5". I have been trying to get behind the Geissele (14.5" URGI) a bit more and like it a lot, much heavier and beefier front rail than both the POF and BCM.
I have looked at DD and I really don't like the furniture on them and for the price I think I should. I like BCM furniture, so I put that on all of my rifles. If I had to just have one and it had to be a complete rifle I would probably go with the Geissele Super Duty rifle because I would only have to change out the grip. Also, on the uppers I have purchase they took the time to put co witness marks on the barrel nut and the gas block; I have never seen that on a BCM or any other AR 15s.
BTW, on the Geissele URGI it has a 14.5" DD barrel and Colt upper. Clones will have the Geissele or Colt upper depending on price.
I have looked at DD and I really don't like the furniture on them and for the price I think I should. I like BCM furniture, so I put that on all of my rifles. If I had to just have one and it had to be a complete rifle I would probably go with the Geissele Super Duty rifle because I would only have to change out the grip. Also, on the uppers I have purchase they took the time to put co witness marks on the barrel nut and the gas block; I have never seen that on a BCM or any other AR 15s.
BTW, on the Geissele URGI it has a 14.5" DD barrel and Colt upper. Clones will have the Geissele or Colt upper depending on price.
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Upgrade franken,,plenty of great internals,,bolts and barrels out there.
Xtra funds buy ammo,, magazines.
No affiliations.
Have gotten awesome FN barrels,
NiB/WMD,BCGs,,parts.
www.righttobear.com
Xtra funds buy ammo,, magazines.
No affiliations.
Have gotten awesome FN barrels,
NiB/WMD,BCGs,,parts.
AR-15 Parts, Accessories & Upgrades | RightToBear.com
Veteran-owned and operated, we utilize a live inventory system to give you the latest and best in replacement AR-15 parts and accessory upgrades as well as Glocks. Choose from the most reputable brands to build an AR-15 or Glock pistol that's entirely your own. Free shipping available on select...
www.righttobear.com 
It’s gonna be Ford vs Chevy when looking at DD vs BCM. Both are quality rifles.
I’ve put thousands of rounds through my BCM rifles and can only think of two times I’ve had an issue. Neither of which caused the rifle to stop functioning.
I’ve handled a few DD and the fit/finish seems a little nicer but I haven’t seen a justification for the additional increase in price vs something I know just plain works.
More money for ammo IMO but nothing wrong with either one depending on your preferences.
I’ve put thousands of rounds through my BCM rifles and can only think of two times I’ve had an issue. Neither of which caused the rifle to stop functioning.
I’ve handled a few DD and the fit/finish seems a little nicer but I haven’t seen a justification for the additional increase in price vs something I know just plain works.
More money for ammo IMO but nothing wrong with either one depending on your preferences.
Because BCM is the same quality as PSA ..... that cost more because they pay Cool Guys to sag their shit is good.
^ this^
I started with a bushmaster modular back in '04 ( still have it ), since added a few home builds, an LWRCi piston, a couple of POF's ( though 308's) and latterly a DDM4V7.
One POF 308 has had somewhere near 6 k rounds through it, mostly surpressed and it's been faultless. It's built like a stone shithouse, is easy to maintain and consistently under 1moa. It also weighs like a small fridge so it's great for paper punching from the bench. The other is one of the new "ar10 but the size/weight of an AR15" Revolutions. Only a couple hundred through it, but it's being a superstar thus far. Build as great, triggers are very good too. If POF's DI guns are as good as their pistons, I'd be happy with one.
The DD I picked up unfired, used for a VERY good price on a local forum- 10.5 barrel -it's a very smooth soft recoiling AR, also an MOA gun. seems very well screwed together too..... BUT....The "mil-spec" trigger is as shitty as any other generic LPK- that got replaced, and the ambi safety selector had sharp as fuck edges. But YAY ! it's plastic, so I stoned them down. If I'd bought it at retail, I'd be cheesed off by those two things.
LWRCi ( i know you didn't ask), has also been a very solid gun, it's an early M6A3 piston, but it is very well built, good trigger and accuracy. Their DI guns are also pretty well regarded.
i can't seem to get the same accuracy from my tavor as I can with my AR's but I maybe haven't found the right ammo. that said, I enjoy shooting it, it handles well and I like the balance- very different manual of arms from the AR though...
DD:
POFs:
10.5 " DD with Stock collapsed roughly same length as 16" barrelled Tavor with full LOP
Back to the OP: It's nice to have "high end" AR's, but in practical terms they aren't bringing much to the table that you couldn't build yourself or upgrade to with careful selection of quality parts. Bragging rights maybe, but they aren't going to change the experience of AR shooting to any real extent.
KAC or LMT, maybe even an Armalite.....................all else are just play toys by comparison.
Doesn't mean there aren't some decent toys, they're just not in the same class as KAC & LMT.
JMHO, YMMV, it's your money.
MM
Doesn't mean there aren't some decent toys, they're just not in the same class as KAC & LMT.
JMHO, YMMV, it's your money.
MM
Just for shits and giggle, I pulled out my 14.5 BCM and 14.5 Geissele and BCM weighs less. So, if I have to carry it all day like when I was an 11B I would go BCM because I already had a shit ton to carry.
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Pws
bench
bench
That's probably why the have been the gold standard of just about every top trainer in the US for the last decade plus. Any top forum will tell you the same. Wonder why we don't hear all the horror stories we do with other brands. BCM builds guns the right way using the right parts and talented assemblers.
People who actually understand the AR platform would never say such foolishness. I mean like that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
They make the best duty guns not named Knights. Not that DD makes a bad gun, they are fine, just massively overpriced and who ever designs the aesthetics is probably an autistic virgin.
LMT brings nothing that Colt, BCM or FN does to the table. With the exception of their MWS platform, they are just another run of the mill, solid built gun. In fact, they are probably a step down due to lack of gas system and barrel profile choices.
Armalite is irrelevant and when they were not they were never top dog. They aren't even the original company, they are rebranded eagle arms. You could argue 20+ years ago there one of the few companies who made a decent AR, but then your comparing to Oly Arms and Bushmaster of the world. At the time, Colt was the only real game in town until KAC , BCM , Sabre Defense and early Noveskee came online.
BCM took everyone's cookies and put out a better, more consistent product at affordable prices. At the time if you wanted a rifle build the right way, Colt was your only choice and you better like carbine length gas systems and cucked BCGs/lowers. Since then we have had alot of new people come onto the scene but BCM builds guns the right way, with the right parts, the right testing and the right qc/aq to put out a consistently reliable product. Most everyone else is just rolling the dice. Who knows where they source their small parts or what kind of testing they do before the monkeys start throwing parts together.
Anyone can slap parts together to make a rifle. It actually takes skill and knowledge to do it the right way and end up with a product you can trust your life with.
What they bring to the table is you can trust your life to them. Colt, BCM, KAC ect have gone through exhaustive testing as a whole system to ensure they run in all weather conditions, dry, wet, with shit ammo, with full power ammo, with a suppressor, without one, ect and still keep ticking.^ this^
I started with a bushmaster modular back in '04 ( still have it ), since added a few home builds, an LWRCi piston, a couple of POF's ( though 308's) and latterly a DDM4V7.
One POF 308 has had somewhere near 6 k rounds through it, mostly surpressed and it's been faultless. It's built like a stone shithouse, is easy to maintain and consistently under 1moa. It also weighs like a small fridge so it's great for paper punching from the bench. The other is one of the new "ar10 but the size/weight of an AR15" Revolutions. Only a couple hundred through it, but it's being a superstar thus far. Build as great, triggers are very good too. If POF's DI guns are as good as their pistons, I'd be happy with one.
The DD I picked up unfired, used for a VERY good price on a local forum- 10.5 barrel -it's a very smooth soft recoiling AR, also an MOA gun. seems very well screwed together too..... BUT....The "mil-spec" trigger is as shitty as any other generic LPK- that got replaced, and the ambi safety selector had sharp as fuck edges. But YAY ! it's plastic, so I stoned them down. If I'd bought it at retail, I'd be cheesed off by those two things.
LWRCi ( i know you didn't ask), has also been a very solid gun, it's an early M6A3 piston, but it is very well built, good trigger and accuracy. Their DI guns are also pretty well regarded.
i can't seem to get the same accuracy from my tavor as I can with my AR's but I maybe haven't found the right ammo. that said, I enjoy shooting it, it handles well and I like the balance- very different manual of arms from the AR though...
DD:
View attachment 7314330
POFs:
10.5 " DD with Stock collapsed roughly same length as 16" barrelled Tavor with full LOP
View attachment 7314343
Back to the OP: It's nice to have "high end" AR's, but in practical terms they aren't bringing much to the table that you couldn't build yourself or upgrade to with careful selection of quality parts. Bragging rights maybe, but they aren't going to change the experience of AR shooting to any real extent.
The AR is a system with hundreds of variables. Start to change things and you have no idea how things will play together. The befit of a factory rifle from a reputable company is the fact it has been tested in statistically significant numbers to be able to trust your life. Its that simple.
You could write 10 books on the subject breaking down the nuances ,ect; but that is what it comes down to. You are paying for confidence and knowing your gear will not let you down when you need it. Anything else and you are rolling the dice.
Are you trying to say that installing all of BCM's Gunfighter accessories on my AR won't actually make me an operator?
After careful review I think I’m going with the KAC. Thanks for the input guys.
PSA fanboys exist?
I'll say 1 thing about BCM-I have 14.5" light weight profile barrel upper on a BCM lower and it's very light and easy to handle. I took some classes with it and it was perfect for the job. Great rig.
Once you go KAC you never go back
I'll say 1 thing about BCM-I have 14.5" light weight profile barrel upper on a BCM lower and it's very light and easy to handle. I took some classes with it and it was perfect for the job. Great rig.
Once you go KAC you never go back
LMT a step down from BCM/Colt/FN?
The MWS platform is kind of a big thing to bring to the table-some may say It's game changing. LMT barrels shoot better then anything I've ever shot from Colt/BCM/FN by a mile-hell I hardly shoot my Colts or BCMs anymore.
BCM is good at choices no doubt and you can really lighten them up with a thinner profile barrel. I've got a lot of rounds through mine and am really happy with them.
Your post reads just like one of the worshippers from M4C. Are you begging for the free gun they are giving away?
You don’t get it do you? “Every top trainer” is shilling their shit. They’re getting free shit and getting paid to pimp it.... Do you really think that Kyle Defoor would pick a shitty BCM with an even shittier Vortex PST 2 if he had to go back to shooting people for a living? Lol
Was Larry Vickers wrong when he was telling the world that DD was “the best”, or just doing what he was paid to do? Now he says the same shit about BCM.... It’s marketing that targets hero worshippers.
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What about the MRP? Plenty of barrel choices and even a heavy duty piston option. None of those companies iffer anything in the same league.
If cost is not an object, that is just about the best decision you could have made.
FN probally makes the most accurate barrels of those listed, they have some special Juju when it comes to chroming. Very consistent application and it shows in the accuracy of their barrels.LMT a step down from BCM/Colt/FN?
The MWS platform is kind of a big thing to bring to the table-some may say It's game changing. LMT barrels shoot better then anything I've ever shot from Colt/BCM/FN by a mile-hell I hardly shoot my Colts or BCMs anymore.
BCM is good at choices no doubt and you can really lighten them up with a thinner profile barrel. I've got a lot of rounds through mine and am really happy with them.
What you have shot and what the reality is is not the same thing. Sorry to burst your bubble bubba..
BCM makes a police called the ELW. Similar to a lighter pencil barrel but needed up in the right places. For anyone not shooting auto, it's the optimal profile for a Carbine barrel. Wish KAC offered something similar on their factory guns.
You are just showing your ignorance at this point. Laughs in Paul Buffoni.Fixed it for ya. BCM isn’t on the list
Piston ARs are a solution looking for a problem with the exception of a special envelope, which is why the 416 was created. Otherwise the gas system is superior in every way. MPR is nothing special, it's heavy and barrels are expensive. Takes 10 minutes to change an AR barrel anyway no need to for QC.
You really knocked it out of the park with this one. Lol
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