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Where have all the knights gone?

Mike_Honcho said:
@ 2 weeks ago I saw an NIB LPR go for @ $3,200 on GB o_O

That said I thought I saw an upper in the FS section here the other day that looked pretty clean. Probably gone now.
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I saw that and it actually went for $3495 buy it now.
But a new in box knights not being made anymore lpr. I believe it was worth it. I bid $3200 and not 5 min later someone bought it now on last day of auction with no bids.
 
Seen a couple KAC uppers for sale on another forum.
 

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Mj30wilson900 said:
I saw that and it actually went for $3495 buy it now.
But a new in box knights not being made anymore lpr. I believe it was worth it. I bid $3200 and not 5 min later someone bought it now on last day of auction with no bids.
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Lprs are not being built any more?
 
I am at 15 weeks backorder on an upper from Knights and when I asked last week if they had an ETA I was told no time frame at all. I love all my KAC stuff but they apparently are not sending out much. I work some at a gun shop and even all the distributors have been out of stock for months.
 
I just picked up a Like BNIB (only 50rds) Limited Edition LaRue FDE .308 for $2700. Pretty fair deal considering the current buying climate.
IMG_20200911_170638902.jpg
 
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Ok, the only KAC rifles nowadays that command that price is an ECC or Trade In EMC. Or any of the Pre-EMC (BR/ Mk11/ Mk11 Carbine etc)

It's probably because some tard on GB bought an APR for $6,250 not too long ago... that set into motion with guys selling current production guns $5k+. If you're paying $5k or more on a current production rifle, you where def hit by the short bus.... LOL
 
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I'm suprisesd people would be interested in a KAC when they could get a Virtus that's better in every possible way more reliable, more accurate, more modular.
 
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roamin said:
I'm suprisesd people would be interested in a KAC when they could get a Virtus that's better in every possible way more reliable, more accurate, more modular.
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Own both. Definitely would not say Virtus is more reliable or accurate. Modular, hell yeah.
 
mrtoyz said:
Own both. Definitely would not say Virtus is more reliable or accurate. Modular, hell yeah.
Click to expand...

Actually I'm referring to how the Virtus was vetted by SOCOM to be more accurate and more reliable during the SURG program. The contract requirements for the SURG were so demanding that SOCOM had to hold trails 3 times because until the MCX no one could meet them. The Sig was required to run for 20,000 suppressed with 0 parts failures which is a reliability standard that no prior US military carbine can claim nor can any of the other SURG entries. It was also required to maintain a maximum ES Average of 1.50 MOA at 300 yards for 5 consecutive 10 round groups using MK318 MOD0 / MOD1 ammunition from 0 to 10,000 rounds fired and meeting such a requirement with MK318 military ammo it's going to require a rifle that's well under sub MOA at 100 yards with match ammo. As well as the MCX being designed and vetted during the SURG program for reliable continuous suppression and from researching that program I'd say SOCOM see's continuous suppression as the future on the battlefield.

We really are comparing the past with the future here whereas Legacy DI AR's are 60 year old designs that have been modified for how we're using tactical carbines today verses the MCX a modern modular multi caliber carbine that's designed around modern needs and there's really no comparison here.
 
I’m aware of the some of the requirements you reference . I can tell you practically that neither of our McX’s, or anyother MCX/Virtus I’ve seen personally, are even close to that accurate.
Don’t get me wrong. I really really like my Sigs. I’m just not convinced it’s at the same level as my SR15. Just my opinion
 
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mrtoyz said:
I’m aware of the some of the requirements you reference . I can tell you practically that neither of our McX’s, or anyother MCX/Virtus I’ve seen personally, are even close to that accurate.
Don’t get me wrong I really really like my Sigs I’m just not convinced it’s at the same level at my SR15. Just my opinion
Click to expand...

I hear ya but SOCOM says tested it to higher reliability and accuracy standards than KAC. Here's the accuracy requirement right here;

"The weapon firing MK318 MOD1 for 5 groups of 10 rounds each suppressed, has to average over the 5 groups no more than 1.50 MOA Extreme Spread (ES) beyond the ammunition Lot Acceptance Test (LAT) average ES at 300 yards. Also, it has to maintain a maximum ES Average of 1.50 MOA over LAT using MK318 MOD0 / MOD1 ammunition from 0 to 10,000 rounds fired"

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/
 
roamin said:
I'm suprisesd people would be interested in a KAC when they could get a Virtus that's better in every possible way more reliable, more accurate, more modular.
Click to expand...



The MCX is significantly heavier. significantly more gassy when shot suppressed, as well as having noticeably harsher shooting impulse

I would question the assertion that the MCX is as reliable, or accurate let alone more.
 
GUNNER10 said:
The MCX is significantly heavier. significantly more gassy when shot suppressed, as well as having noticeably harsher shooting impulse

I would question the assertion that the MCX is as reliable, or accurate let alone more.
Click to expand...

Those aren't assertions they are facts that are vetted by SOCOM correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the MCX was required to pass more demanding reliability standards for the SURG program than any US military carbine ever.
 
Again I’ve read it, I know what they did and said. I’m simply saying that MCX’s with those accuracy standards are not what hit the streets. Not even close.
Gunner10 is correct that MCX is heavier and the recoil impulse is definitely softer on the KAC. In fact the KaC is the softest shooting AR I’ve ever shot. In my experience though the MCX is not necessarily more gassy. With my combos of can and ammo they are very similar. I hear that a lot about the MPX as well. I call BS, at least as far as my equipment and ammo.
 
Test data is good. Use in the wild is also another indicator.

An award does not always tell the whole story. If four guns submitted. Two were junk and the other two were close but end users preferred one over the other , that's the weapon that gets selected.

Also some companies just don't submit for their own reasons.

The IC test was far harder on guns than the surg test. Sig did not participate.

Edited to add, one has to look no further than the MHS test where sig was selected as the winner despite not even being in the top three for reliability. The powers at be decided that at the end of the day its a pistol, that's never going to get used, its cheap and sig should be able to fix it, its a pistol after all.

I love the engineering at Sig, but really question their execution.

So after spending around 8 years in the testing world, seeing the press release but not test results, Knowing one of the engineers that went to work for sig, I would be confident in saying its probably a solid weapon.

I would like to grab one eventually. would i take that over a say a 11.5 SR15, not a chance unless I need a short 300blk
 
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RyanScott said:
I don’t know how they could fix it without a redesign.
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They will get it right on Gen 4 or 5, right before they discontinue it for some new design where nothing is backwards compatable that the consumer gets to be the beta tester for the next couple years before they rinse and repeat again.
 
roamin said:
I hear ya but SOCOM says tested it to higher reliability and accuracy standards than KAC. Here's the accuracy requirement right here;

"The weapon firing MK318 MOD1 for 5 groups of 10 rounds each suppressed, has to average over the 5 groups no more than 1.50 MOA Extreme Spread (ES) beyond the ammunition Lot Acceptance Test (LAT) average ES at 300 yards. Also, it has to maintain a maximum ES Average of 1.50 MOA over LAT using MK318 MOD0 / MOD1 ammunition from 0 to 10,000 rounds fired"

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/
Click to expand...
A. SSD is a cuck who cares about one thing.. advertising dollars. 90% of the bullshit on their is just that. Paid Fluff pieces by industry under the illusion of some official DOD source.

B. Like our Anonymous sources from the MSM, no one but those who are read in or have access to the full procurement data know what performance was or why a selection was made. You may be able to FOIA it, but you are getting a small redacted piece.

C. Sig has thrown so much money at DOD, Armed Services,ect that it really makes you wonder why they all of a sudden are winning bids with inferior products. M17/18 inferior to Glock and can't even pass drop test, yet somehow makes it through selection and is fixed after the fact. Sig LPV trash optics when there are much better options on market for similar prices. Whatever Sig abortion MCX SURG or low rate trash that will never get used by more than a handfull of guys ect.

When you look at these procurement RFPs, its clear they made their selections before they even received bids. Its how I would do it to ensure I got the vendor and product of choice.

D. Not many with functioning brains would chose to go into harms way with a Sig Rifle over a KAC gun. Despite what ever propoganda SIG puts out, real world experience and data tells us a different story.
 
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What something is posted at and what it sells for are two different things. I can put a PSA rifle up for $100k, gona make a thread about it?
 
roamin said:
Those aren't assertions they are facts that are vetted by SOCOM correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the MCX was required to pass more demanding reliability standards for the SURG program than any US military carbine ever.
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SOCOM has the same shitbag officers, GS employees and contracting folks as the rest of the federal government. The same flag officers looking for big money defense jobs after retirement and the same politicans getting lobbied by industry.

What is telling is units that do alot of DA and CT......What are they using? It ain't a sig product (Although the 300NM machine gun is intriguing and may one day be a staple) .
 
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mrtoyz said:
Again I’ve read it, I know what they did and said. I’m simply saying that MCX’s with those accuracy standards are not what hit the streets. Not even close.
Gunner10 is correct that MCX is heavier and the recoil impulse is definitely softer on the KAC. In fact the KaC is the softest shooting AR I’ve ever shot. In my experience though the MCX is not necessarily more gassy. With my combos of can and ammo they are very similar. I hear that a lot about the MPX as well. I call BS, at least as far as my equipment and ammo.
Click to expand...

No MCX’s with those accuracy standards are exactly what hit the streets. The SURG is a standard Virtus upper with a different hand guard on an M4 lower there are no charges to the barrel. This is has all been made public and is well documented so I'm not sure what you think you're calling BS on.
 
RyanScott said:
The MCX can’t even keep your laser pointing at the target. Hard pass.
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The Virtus is designed to maintain zero on rail mounted devices. Legacy AR's mounting a rails connection hardware to the barrel nut is not ideal that's why some manufacturers went to monolithic uppers Sig's solution is the better one. It's just one example of how Legacy DI AR's are 60 year old designs trying to keep up with how were using tactical carbines today verses the MCX which is designed from the ground up to be a modern modular multi caliber tactical carbine and provide better accuracy, reliability, modularity, and a system that's designed around continuous suppression which I'd say from researching the SURG program SOCOM see's as the future on the battlefield.
 
GUNNER10 said:
Test data is good. Use in the wild is also another indicator.

An award does not always tell the whole story. If four guns submitted. Two were junk and the other two were close but end users preferred one over the other , that's the weapon that gets selected.

Also some companies just don't submit for their own reasons.

The IC test was far harder on guns than the surg test. Sig did not participate.

Edited to add, one has to look no further than the MHS test where sig was selected as the winner despite not even being in the top three for reliability. The powers at be decided that at the end of the day its a pistol, that's never going to get used, its cheap and sig should be able to fix it, its a pistol after all.

I love the engineering at Sig, but really question their execution.

So after spending around 8 years in the testing world, seeing the press release but not test results, Knowing one of the engineers that went to work for sig, I would be confident in saying its probably a solid weapon.

I would like to grab one eventually. would i take that over a say a 11.5 SR15, not a chance unless I need a short 300blk
Click to expand...

And yet the results of the testing involved in the SURG program is undeniable and not debatable.
 
You obviously know fuck all about procurement. Also, you give way too much credit to the squids that run small arms procurement for SOCOM. They buy a lot of turds too.

Do you have the unredacted test data?
 
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CrabsandFootball said:
A. SSD is a cuck who cares about one thing.. advertising dollars. 90% of the bullshit on their is just that. Paid Fluff pieces by industry under the illusion of some official DOD source.

B. Like our Anonymous sources from the MSM, no one but those who are read in or have access to the full procurement data know what performance was or why a selection was made. You may be able to FOIA it, but you are getting a small redacted piece.

C. Sig has thrown so much money at DOD, Armed Services,ect that it really makes you wonder why they all of a sudden are winning bids with inferior products. M17/18 inferior to Glock and can't even pass drop test, yet somehow makes it through selection and is fixed after the fact. Sig LPV trash optics when there are much better options on market for similar prices. Whatever Sig abortion MCX SURG or low rate trash that will never get used by more than a handfull of guys ect.

When you look at these procurement RFPs, its clear they made their selections before they even received bids. Its how I would do it to ensure I got the vendor and product of choice.

D. Not many with functioning brains would chose to go into harms way with a Sig Rifle over a KAC gun. Despite what ever propoganda SIG puts out, real world experience and data tells us a different story.
Click to expand...


Hard to make the claim that MCX was choosen for the SURG due to political reasons when it was the only rifle that could meet the reliability requirements just to become qualified for consideration. And those requirements were so demanding that SOCOM had to hold the SURG program trails 3 times because until the MCX no one could meet them.


"These stringent requirements, combining suppression, reliability, accuracy service life, and operator protection were very challenging for industry. It took three tries at bat for the SURG program to finally select a system. In the two earlier attempts, none of the systems could meet all of the program’s objectives. Kudos to SIG for putting together a winning system."

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/

And those requirements are pretty cut and dry some of if not the the most rigorous reliability and accuracy standards that a US Military carbine has been required to pass ever.

The Sig was required to run for 20,000 rounds suppressed with 0 parts failures which is reliability standard that no US military carbine has been required to pass.

The MCX was also required when firing MK318 MOD1 for 5 groups of 10 rounds each suppressed, has to average over the 5 groups no more than 1.50 MOA Extreme Spread (ES) beyond the ammunition Lot Acceptance Test (LAT) average ES at 300 yards. Also, it has to maintain a maximum ES Average of 1.50 MOA over LAT using MK318 MOD0 / MOD1 ammunition from 0 to 10,000 rounds fired. Which is is a more stringent accuracy requirement than I've seen on a US military carbine ever.

This stuff is again cut and dry and the MCX's capabilities being vetted by SOCOM unless you can show how another rifle has been proven to the same extent to be more accurate more reliable and more modular then it's not debatable that the MCX is indeed the better rifle.
 
roamin said:
No MCX’s with those accuracy standards are exactly what hit the streets. The SURG is a standard Virtus upper with a different hand guard on an M4 lower there are no charges to the barrel. This is has all been made public and is well documented so I'm not sure what you think you're calling BS on.
Click to expand...
Need to read my post. I called BS on gas complaints on the MPX. It was simply a side note to the existing conversation.
 
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RyanScott said:
You obviously know fuck all about procurement. Also, you give way too much credit to the squids that run small arms procurement for SOCOM. They buy a lot of turds too.

Do you have the unredacted test data?
Click to expand...

What's been made public and has been covered by multiple publications is enough to show that the MCX has been required to pass higher reliability and accuracy standards than any US military carbine ever.
 
RyanScott said:
You obviously know fuck all about procurement. Also, you give way too much credit to the squids that run small arms procurement for SOCOM. They buy a lot of turds too.

Do you have the unredacted test data?
Click to expand...
He don't know what the fuck he is talking about, just regurgitating some press release bullshit.

With that being said, of the agencies I have worked for in contracting. Department of the Navy is hands down the most incompetent, slow and ineffective I have ever seen. In fact, I made my nut by taking Navy Appropriations and spending them with the Army and COE. It was faster cheaper and a better product to MILPER the money to another service than use our own contracting people even paying a 5-10% vig on each transaction.
 
At least Mark Larue only touts his rifles as the “Best”. Lol
 
roamin said:
Hard to make the claim that MCX was choosen for the SURG due to political reasons when it was the only rifle that could meet the reliability requirements just to become qualified for consideration. And those requirements were so demanding that SOCOM had to hold the SURG program trails 3 times because until the MCX no one could meet them.


"These stringent requirements, combining suppression, reliability, accuracy service life, and operator protection were very challenging for industry. It took three tries at bat for the SURG program to finally select a system. In the two earlier attempts, none of the systems could meet all of the program’s objectives. Kudos to SIG for putting together a winning system."

https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/

And those requirements are pretty cut and dry some of if not the the most rigorous reliability and accuracy standards that a US Military carbine has been required to pass ever.

The Sig was required to run for 20,000 rounds suppressed with 0 parts failures which is reliability standard that no US military carbine has been required to pass.

The MCX was also required when firing MK318 MOD1 for 5 groups of 10 rounds each suppressed, has to average over the 5 groups no more than 1.50 MOA Extreme Spread (ES) beyond the ammunition Lot Acceptance Test (LAT) average ES at 300 yards. Also, it has to maintain a maximum ES Average of 1.50 MOA over LAT using MK318 MOD0 / MOD1 ammunition from 0 to 10,000 rounds fired. Which is is a more stringent accuracy requirement than I've seen on a US military carbine ever.

This stuff is again cut and dry and the MCX's capabilities being vetted by SOCOM unless you can show how another rifle has been proven to the same extent to be more accurate more reliable and more modular then it's not debatable that the MCX is indeed the better rifle.
Click to expand...
Serious question, are you autistic?

Like i said, a PAID PRESS RELEASE from Sig is your proof? You are regurgitating bullshit crafted by Public relations and Lawyers. Who work for the company who won the bid.

Remmeber when the Sig won the m17 Trials? Remember when they said despite our product performing worse than everyone else, we greased enough palms and ensured enough Jobs to Field and Flag Grade officers while putting money in the pockets of the scum on the Armed Services Commitee to win! Don't remember that? Me either.

Well gee golly beaver, ya think?
 
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