So I'm Learning about Sizing Brass this Year

[AllenOne1]

I have been reloading for centerfire rifle for a couple of years but this year I am really learning about sizing brass.

I started with a factory barrel and loaded for it using a standard non-bushing full length die from a leading manufacturer, life was good and everything worked fine. It would never size the brass to fit in a Hornady case gauge but it fit the guns chamber fine so I just went with it. Eventually I replaced the ball expander with a mandrel to have a bit more control over neck tension. Brass is annealed after each firing.

The first of this year I replaced the original factory barrel with a Proof aftermarket and assumed I could continue to use the same brass from the old barrel. The brass of course would not size down far enough to fit in the new chamber. Ok that was the first lesson, new barrel, new brass. Original die worked with the new brass but it seemed like it wasn't sizing it quite enough and I still had that issue of not fitting in a case gauge and that bugged me. The neck was also sizing down tight enough that I was noticing it was hard to run the mandrel in and out as smoothly as I would like and that it was probably distorting the necks a bit.

After much research and couple of "issues" with a semi custom manufacturer I decided to order a new full length non-bushing die and eventually thought I might have the neck honed to size. This die turned out to be TIGHT, I mean real tight. With some effort I got it to work or at least I could get brass in and out of it. The brass now fit into the Hornady case gauge and the necks were a couple thousands larger than the original die which helped with the mandrel sizing. This die however took a good coating of case lube to make it work and resulted in shoulder dents. I'm not completely sure the dents were from the lube or if it was from sizing the brass so small in the shoulder area. I ended up sending this die back to the manufacturer who reported that the die is fine but that they would hone the neck for me to see if that helped. Haven't seen it back yet but I really don't think this is going to be an improvement as the issue was with the body not so much the neck.

In the mean time I decided to order a new full length bushing die which I received yesterday. Oh my Lord! The brass goes in and out of this die requiring only the lightest amount of lube. The sized case fits in the Hornady case gauge just tight enough that it won't drop out but a light push though the neck has it right out. If I really cleaned the case lube completely off in a tumbler it may drop in and out. The bushing is sizing the neck close to the mandrel size so I can easily finish the sizing for a neck tension of .0015 - .002 .002 is the target but I can play with this now and see if I can get any improvement on the paper.

Lesson: All dies are not made equal and even though they are all standard SAAMI spec they are not really the same size or spec. Custom dies would be a good solution to avoid the issues that I have had but I didn't want to wait for months to get dies, in hind sight it may well have been quicker and easier. I'm not sure if I have just got extra lucky in getting odd sized dies or if this is fairly normal, if it is normal I would think we would see a lot of articles but these issues. Most of the sizing questions are related to shoulder bump.

Whining is completed, thanks for reading.
Allen

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ya, definitely not all created equal. Here is a 6.5x47 and 6x47 die, both made by Redding. The case body should be more or less the same as 6x47 should just be necked down 6.5x47.

But the 6x47 was much tighter. Ended up just using the 6.5 with appropriate bushing.

 

[Ffjmoore]

Interesting, I use dies from multiple manufactures. Lee, rcbs, redding and have not had any problems. But now you got me wondering. I have a few sets of 308. I should size with differing ones and compare. Most of my dies are the lower end models. What brass were you resizing?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Interesting, I use dies from multiple manufactures. Lee, rcbs, redding and have not had any problems. But now you got me wondering. I have a few sets of 308. I should size with differing ones and compare. Most of my dies are the lower end models. What brass were you resizing?

If it’s sizing down enough to run without sticky bolt or clicker problems, don’t sweat it

 

[AllenOne1]

Ya, definitely not all created equal. Here is a 6.5x47 and 6x47 die, both made by Redding. The case body should be more or less the same as 6x47 should just be necked down 6.5x47.

But the 6x47 was much tighter. Ended up just using the 6.5 with appropriate bushing.

View attachment 7441932

I can show you a picture just like that except the dies are the same caliber by different manufacturers. It does make a case for custom dies doesn't it?

 

[AllenOne1]

Interesting, I use dies from multiple manufactures. Lee, rcbs, redding and have not had any problems. But now you got me wondering. I have a few sets of 308. I should size with differing ones and compare. Most of my dies are the lower end models. What brass were you resizing?

I am sizing a matching lot of Starline brass all of it shot from the same barrel since new. I referenced 2 barrels but have two lots of brass except for the point where I tried the older brass in the new barrel.

The test of the .308 dies might be interesting but I agree with Dthomas don't go down a rabbit hole you don't need to go down.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I have 4 full sets of 308 dies and 6 different sizers in total for that caliber. I have taken fired machine gun brass as well as commercial brass and sized them in each die. I keep a data card with each set denoting base diameter and shoulder diameter. I match the die to the task at hand.

I have 4 sets of 30-06, and 4 sets of 223 for the same reason. I didn't buy all of them new, I watch out for vintage sets in pawn shops, ebay, gun shows etc...

My favorites are Lyman and RCBS dies from the late 60's through the 70's. RCBS used to stamp the date of manufacture on their dies and presses so it is easy to tell. The quality of the equipment back then was much higher across the board and these vintage dies can often be picked up for $20 or less.

I have one press and a couple sets of dies that are older than I am, and I'll be 50 in a couple months. They still make good straight ammo.

 

[AllenOne1]

The quality of the equipment back then was much higher across the board and these vintage dies can often be picked up for $20 or less.

Are the vintage dies really higher quality than what is produced today? The CNC equipment we have available today is really top tier equipment. Does it come down to quality control before it goes out the door or is it our expectations of what can and should be sold that are so high? The vintage dies that didn't work well were probably lost along the way now all we are seeing is the ones that work. If you find a vintage die that doesn't look like it was used it might make you think twice.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

CNC gives much tighter possible tolerances. But the machine isn't who decides when to change the tooling.

CNC also makes more parts with acceptable tolerances faster and easier and cheaper, but it can't instill pride in the guy doing the QC.

Look at any CNC'd factory rifle today, whether cheap or expensive, the hand of the maker is invisible. Look at a piece from 40+ years ago, whether cheap or expensive, someone with human hands had to love it at least a little before it left the factory.

Old tools are often still around because they were well made to begin with. The lettering may be hand stamped and maybe not quite as perfect as laser engraved, but the maker approved of it enough to put his personal touch on it before it went out the door.

JMO, take it for what you will.

 

[Ravenworks]

Are the vintage dies really higher quality than what is produced today? The CNC equipment we have available today is really top tier equipment. Does it come down to quality control before it goes out the door or is it our expectations of what can and should be sold that are so high? The vintage dies that didn't work well were probably lost along the way now all we are seeing is the ones that work. If you find a vintage die that doesn't look like it was used it might make you think twice.

Well Diebold managed to make vault doors in Ohio weighing in excess of 100 tons.
Dismantle them,ship them all over the world,reassemble them and close them with one finger.

Keep thinking CNC is all that, the problem is there are not to many true skilled craftsmen left.
Computers make people forget where they cam from