Load development help

[extendoclip]

I’m new to reloading and need some advice. I’m trying to get my extreme spread as low as possible while maximizing accuracy. Thanks in advance!

Here is my setup:
300 Win Mag 27” 1/10 twist
215 Berger Hybrid
RL23 powder
Fed 215 primers.
Peterson new brass

I resized my new brass with a hornady FL bushing die without touching the shoulder using a .332 bushing without expander ball.

I expanded the neck using a .3065 21st Century mandrels for .020 neck tension accounting for Spring back.

I seated using a LE Wilson chamber seater .020 off the lands.

I went out and shot these groups and want some advice on where to go next. The only flat spot velocity wise is 72-72.2. I was thinking of using 72.1 and doing a seating depth test next. I’m just worried that I’m loading to much pressure. I’ll include pictures of the brass at 72 and 72.2

 

[extendoclip]

Another flat spot is 71-71.2.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Another flat spot is 71-71.2.

Even 71.4 is close. The 72.0 group is bad, while all the groups in the 71.0 - 71.4 are similar/decent, as are the ES's.

I'd definitely play there first.

 

[extendoclip]

Thanks. The reason I’m thinking of 71.1 or 72.1 is because it looks like they are in velocity nodes. Couldn’t I just tweak seating depth to fine tune my groups sizes?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Thanks. The reason I’m thinking of 71.1 or 72.1 is because it looks like they are in velocity nodes. Couldn’t I just tweak seating depth to fine tune my groups sizes?

You can certainly play with both, though the 72.0 group is pretty bad, as is 71.8 - will 72.1 be that much better? Where as the 71.0 - .4 area is all solid. I just noticed that this was all done with virgin brass. Note that your numbers will likely change slightly for the next firing.

 

[extendoclip]

You are right. I’ll load up a bunch of 71.1 rounds long and seat them at different depths at the range with my arbor press to find a sweet spot.

 

[extendoclip]

Do you think my ES and groups will get better after fire forming?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Do you think my ES and groups will get better after fire forming?

You could see some improvement, but you're doing pretty well as it is. The big thing is settling in on the actual velocity for given charges. I don't like doing load development until I've put the brass through the rifle once.

Another question: is this a new barrel?

 

[Rocketmandb]

One other thing, how did you settle in on RL-23? Availability?

 

[extendoclip]

The barrel has about 250 rounds through it. I originally shot some federal gold medal match 215 Bergers. I reloaded that fed brass at 71.8 grains and was getting about .5 moa. I shot it out to 1705 yards but I was not happy with the quality of federal brass because of their really loose primer pockets.

My load development test with fed brass had more obvious velocity nodes. I was using Winchester mag primers and have since switched to fed 215s.

I bought 16 pounds of RL 23 because I couldn’t find H1000, RL26 or Retumbo. Hard times...

 

[salks]

When you do your jump test don't be afraid to take big swings at it. .020-.030 at a time then fine tune if necessary.

 

[extendoclip]

Thanks. What do you think about going into the lands a little? If I were to jump back .020-.030 at a time wouldn’t i jump over nodes? How wide are seating depth nodes?

 

[Gustav7]

Thanks. What do you think about going into the lands a little? If I were to jump back .020-.030 at a time wouldn’t i jump over nodes? How wide are seating depth nodes?

I'd stay away from jamming....theres just no point unless you're trying to do some super specific shit like benchrest.

I'd start at 20 thou off and go 20-30 thou increments all the way up to 120-150 thou off. (especially using the 71.1gr node - less pressure).

From some of the newer stuff/research on bullet seating depth like what Scott Satterlee has been doing, and Precision Rifle Blog, there are smaller and larger nodes for seating depth. The large nodes are usually a little further out, the smaller nodes a little further in. The smaller nodes are more finnicky obviously, the larger are more forgiving and be 20-40 thou wide. My 6.5 has very similar POI and group size from 40-70 thou off.

Link to Precision Rifle Blog on seating depth -- https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/29/bullet-jump-load-development/

 

[salks]

On the Berger site they claim these nodes for hybrids are as wide as .030. I watched my groups open and close when i tried it. Then I just tried to stay to the high side to allow for throat wear. I will second the no need to load into the lands. Try to find that jump sweet spot with the 71.1grs.

 

[extendoclip]

Thanks Gustav and salks, you guys are awesome.

That article was eye opening. I was going to start at .020 off and work my way in .003 at a time now I’m going to follow everyones advice and do .020-.030 increments.

Should I test with 3 shot groups and once a tight group appears load in both directions in .005 increments to find out the width of the node?

 

[Gustav7]

Thanks Gustav and salks, you guys are awesome.

That article was eye opening. I was going to start at .020 off and work my way in .003 at a time now I’m going to follow everyones advice and do .020-.030 increments.

Should I test with 3 shot groups and once a tight group appears load in both directions in .005 increments to find out the width of the node?

Listen to the Modern Day Sniper podcast with Scott Satterlee too. He was talking about having his comp rifle's barrel throated longer and longer just to see what happened. He shot in a competition with like 200+ thou to the rifling...yes, 0.200" and still had good results. My problem with variations of 3 thou is that MOST guys aren't loading their bullets with that much precision. Having +/- 1 thou in bullet seating variation (yes from the OGIVE) is pretty normal, so trying to keep everything exact and then test it against something else thats only 3 thou off isn't conducive to accurate results.

If you can find a good powder charge node, and a wide bullet seating depth node, you're going to be accurate enough in almost all conditions given quality bullets and a decently temp stable powder.

Then practice shooting

 

[salks]

I do 5 shot groups. Maybe 2 sets. Do whatever you comfortable with to be sure your getting accurate results. I would be curious to know seating depth of the factory ammo you shot with the bergers. After you find that seating seating depth you can even tweak your powder a little bit. Once you think you got it put some distance on it that's the big test. Then load, shoot, be happy.

 

[Chickentoast]

Agree on the 71 and 72.2 - if worried about pressure, be careful about jumping the hotter load too far. I generally test 7,15,25,40 thou. Once you're in 10ths of powder and depth is set/close, step it out to ~300 yds and do 5 shots. I find it easier to fine-tune.

 

[Gustav7]

Agree on the 71 and 72.2 - if worried about pressure, be careful about jumping the hotter load too far. I generally test 7,15,25,40 thou. Once you're in 10ths of powder and depth is set/close, step it out to ~300 yds and do 5 shots. I find it easier to fine-tune.

It's my understanding that the further the jump, the LESS pressure you're going to have. So provided you can fit the bullet into the case with [X] amount of powder, the farther the jump, the less the pressure since more of the powder is burnt before the bullet hits the rifling and spikes pressure again.

This is similar to why virgin or undersized brass will have slightly less pressure than brass that is only 1-2 thou bumped back.

OP... there are most likely more than one seating depth node. A lot of guys are moving their seating depths to farther out because it seems to be more forgiving. Thats not to say you can't find a close node and it may be more accurate. But I'd rather have a seating depth that was 20-30 thou wide than I would a node that was 5 thou wide but slightly more precise. Personally, I doubt I could shoot the difference anyways.

 

[Chickentoast]

^I think it's both seating into the case as well as distance from the lands - case volume vs chamber volume - so increasing pressure on one side decreases it on the other, and vice versa. Perhaps I should've also said be careful once jump gets really small.

 

[extendoclip]

I do 5 shot groups. Maybe 2 sets. Do whatever you comfortable with to be sure your getting accurate results. I would be curious to know seating depth of the factory ammo you shot with the bergers. After you find that seating seating depth you can even tweak your powder a little bit. Once you think you got it put some distance on it that's the big test. Then load, shoot, be happy.

I measured the GMM 215s and they were over .100 off. I can’t remember the exact number but remember it was more than .100. It was hot ammo shooting 2990 FPS.

I’ll test on paper and jump to banging steel at 1000 the same day. I’ll post my findings here

 

[extendoclip]

Listen to the Modern Day Sniper podcast with Scott Satterlee too. He was talking about having his comp rifle's barrel throated longer and longer just to see what happened. He shot in a competition with like 200+ thou to the rifling...yes, 0.200" and still had good results. My problem with variations of 3 thou is that MOST guys aren't loading their bullets with that much precision. Having +/- 1 thou in bullet seating variation (yes from the OGIVE) is pretty normal, so trying to keep everything exact and then test it against something else thats only 3 thou off isn't conducive to accurate results.

If you can find a good powder charge node, and a wide bullet seating depth node, you're going to be accurate enough in almost all conditions given quality bullets and a decently temp stable powder.

Then practice shooting

Going further out to find wide nodes is my plan now thanks to everyone here. I’d rather go shooting at distance than having to always shoot groups to confirm my finicky seating depth. I’ll find that podcast. Thanks man!

 

[extendoclip]

Agree on the 71 and 72.2 - if worried about pressure, be careful about jumping the hotter load too far. I generally test 7,15,25,40 thou. Once you're in 10ths of powder and depth is set/close, step it out to ~300 yds and do 5 shots. I find it easier to fine-tune.

Will do. Unfortunately I can’t test groups past 100 because of my range but I can shoot steel out to 1700.

 

[Precision Underground]

71.4 all the way.

 

[extendoclip]

Found a nice big node .080 off the lands. 71.1 was good with SDs around 5 FPS.

 

[needham]

why would you not load 71.4 and be done?

both groups that bracket that charge overlay it it very well.
you could go 71.3 or even if you want to go 71.5 to get the higher end of the node is good too.

71.4 and some minor seating testing and it will provide a load you'll never be able to outshoot in my opinion

 

[extendoclip]

I went with 71.1 because 71 and 71.2 were within 3 fps of each other. After the seating depth test my groups were super tight and my SD was 5 FPS.

 

[Chickentoast]

^^Now test farther out until you can't hit 8/10, then go after that higher node and try the same distance... juice may or may not be worth the squeeze, but fun and worthwhile exercise regardless!

 

[salks]

Shoot what ya got be happy.

 

[extendoclip]

I might bump it up to 71.4 on the second firing because I’ll probably lose some speed with fireformed brass and it might shoot differently. I shot 1000 yards yesterday. It felt really good and I was hitting their 10” disk pretty easily. I don’t really enjoy shooting groups but will experiment with the second firing if shit changes.

 

[corsteve]

new to this site building a 6.5 270/wsm need load data w/H1000 AN MAG PRIMERS AN BERGER 140 grn have 2 custom built rifles now but this is a new one or what kind of powder does anybody recommend

 

[Gustav7]

new to this site building a 6.5 270/wsm need load data w/H1000 AN MAG PRIMERS AN BERGER 140 grn have 2 custom built rifles now but this is a new one or what kind of powder does anybody recommend

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