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Which brass to use (Lapua, Hornady, Misc ones fired)

LostInTranslation

Sergeant of the Hide
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Minuteman
Jul 16, 2020
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Shooting 6.5 Creedmore. New to PRS and new to reloading. Still shooting at 100m - able to keep within 1moa - so next step is to start stretching distance out and would like consistent ammo.

Question about which brass to use... My options
  • High quality new Lapua or Hornady
  • Any new brass
  • Once fired misc (I have Winchester, Remington, etc)
Obviously getting new Lapua/Hornady is an easy answer - but if once fired misc brass also works - it is a bit cheaper...

Thanks in advance.
 
If you can get enough of one type of once fired, or get some that are very close in volume, that should be sufficient for starting PRS. You'll want to make sure you have enough to shoot an entire match plus maybe some zeroing shots, so maybe a batch of 200 -220 for local matches. Also, you'll likely lose a piece or two here and there.

It really comes down to how you define acceptable accuracy, and it seems most consider that a pretty loose standard with PRS target sizes.
 
Shooting 6.5 Creedmore. New to PRS and new to reloading. Still shooting at 100m - able to keep within 1moa - so next step is to start stretching distance out and would like consistent ammo.

Question about which brass to use... My options
  • High quality new Lapua or Hornady
  • Any new brass
  • Once fired misc (I have Winchester, Remington, etc)
Obviously getting new Lapua/Hornady is an easy answer - but if once fired misc brass also works - it is a bit cheaper...

Thanks in advance.

Since you've stated you want "consistent ammo", you'll do better with Lapua brass than Hornady brass. Though, if you put enough work into Hornady brass (like sorting them, deburring flash holes, uniforming primer pockets, turning necks) you can get the performance to that of Lapua.
 
From my experience Lapua is excellent brass, ADG is excellent brass (and a tag cheaper plus free ammo box (not why I bought is but...) and Peterson is REALlY good brass, and... if you are on a budget, Grafs has US manufacture seconds (which are Peterson) for half price in LRP and SRP. I picked up some of the Graf stuff and if that is what Peterson calls seconds their first string stuff must be out of this world! Full disclaimer I’m working with .338LM brass but food for thought.
 
I started saving up Lapua brass way before I got into reloading. Which ended up working out! I usually use those or Peterson match brass. Curious if Nosler brass is good?
 
Of all the 6.5CM brass I’ve shot, I would rank them: Lapua > Alpha SRP > Alpha LRP > Peterson SRP > Peterson LRP (also found in New Prime) > Nolser > Prime Norma > Hornady > Federal.

I would buy 200-300 Berger or Prime ammo. Once you’re done shooting, you’ll be left with premium brass. I prefer the 140 Berger as it shot lights out for everyone know with sub 10sd inlcude 3 different barrels I have. Then you’ll have your once fired Lapua brass.
 
Whatever you get will probably work. Hornady is considered low quality but alot ofguys use it and it works. You can buy once fired brass pretty cheap in decent quantity
 
For the accuracy standard of PRS, I want the most consistent brass, piece to piece, that’s available without having to sort, neck turn, uniform any pockets, etc... for me, that’s always been Lapua. Open the box, use the brass, get great results.
 
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If every part of your game is up to spec, Lapua makes good sense, it's the best. But without everything else being at its peak; Lapua will not turn anyone into a champion.

I'm not champion material these days, maybe I never was. I recognize that, and use 'lesser' brass because I know that Lapua would probably be wasted on me. I may not be alone in this.

I use and like Starline, IMI, Hornady, and PPU brass. Winchester and Remington are quite good enough for everything but top level competition, too. With adequate prep, these deliver all the performance I'm personally capable of; and that saves my bucks and leaves more of it for you other folks who are my betters.

You're going to be shooting a lot of rounds on your pathway to excellence. Much, maybe most, will not be of adequate importance to justify Lapua. That's where the other brands have their place.

If you are Championship material, doing championship shooting, Lapua is a simple choice. If you are not, maybe you are buying something you can't justify.

Greg
 
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If you are Championship material, doing championship shooting, Lapua is a simple choice. If you are not, maybe you are buying something you can't justify.

Disagree. Everyone benefits from an increase in consistency and quality. It's about eliminating variables. Now, if you want to argue about marginal gains per dollar spent, that's a valid argument.
 
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Chiming in on once fired brass -- I am far from an expert, but in my limited and experience/limited budget, the brass from S&B 140gr FMJBTs is pretty damn good considering it is the cheapest box ammo out there. It seems to work better for me than fired brass from Hornady match ammo.
 
Disagree. Everyone benefits from an increase in consistency and quality. It's about eliminating variables. Now, if you want to argue about marginal gains per dollar spent, that's a valid argument.

I think that's a good point. It's exactly what I maintained for many years here.

But I began to suspect that what I was recommending was an argument that only perfection is good enough, and that it was just a case of chasing one's own tail. And perfection can get expensive, too.

So I did a bunch of testing as part of my normal loading and shooting process; swapping out individual components and seeing if there was a performance deficit involved. In some cases there was, but often it wasn't, or it was so small it was outweighed by other, uncontrollable factors, like the environment and other issues where an improvement in one area also required a change in another.

It all just got too complex and unwieldy to clearly demonstrate actual, consistently repeatable advantages. I gave up and attacked the problem from the other end.

I reduced my handloading process to the simplest, most basic components and processes. I put my emphasis into performing the basic reloading steps with the most consistency I could manage. I anticipated a performance drop, based on common sense. Yes, there was a drop, but it was a lot less than I expected. That drop was also somewhat dependent on my adherence to consistency despite no change in components and die settings, etc.

A few relationships merged.

Time is a resource, and has an intrinsic value. Saving it has benefit. Applications have varying priorities, and some don't warrant an all-out approach. Unless you are committed to serious competition, on a frequent basis, your accuracy requirements may not be as rigid and demanding. A good barrel and a good enough bullet is an adequate combination. I also found that the QC standards that many of us challenge and measure/weigh ad nauseam are actually good enough that many, maybe most of us, cannot see the difference on the target between carefully measured, sorted, and selected components, and those that are used straight from the box.

I revised my requirements from being based on measurements to being based on whether a hit was meaningful. I adopted the concept of 'defeating the target', which often isn't based on measurements, but instead on effectiveness. The idea is that the deer that just got dropped really doesn't care whether it was shot with a 1/2MOA load or a 2MOA load; dead is dead.

I found that my needs could be met with less 'accuracy', and that being constrained to using only the best and brightest components made more sense for others than for me.

When we offer blanket advisements to the forum in general, we may be missing that not all of us have the same pressures and demands bearing down on us. Perfection, if it is even attainable at all, is not required for many, maybe even most of us, on this forum. There are champions here, but they do not constitute the majority amongst us.

I began to realize that NRA targets were based on a 2MOA accuracy level. I began to realize that depending on premium components can occasionally become an excuse for allowing one's skill to take a back seat. I realized that no matter what the load and equipment's accuracy was, wind skills are every bit as necessary for each and every shooter. There are no shortcuts or fixes that allow one to ease up on that basic process. There is no substitute for skill, as I found out over several years of 1000yd F Open competition.

We have a goodly number of folks who write here for the Upper Levels of the Marksmanship Comp games. I write for those amongst us who are yet to attain those levels.

So where does the Lapua product line sit in my range of priorities? It its up there in the region where I cannot in good faith justify the purchase, based on my applications and skills.

Greg
 
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Brass has a lot of factors.

Hardness and case capacity are crucial among them, as I found out the hard way.

Weight is NOT a reliable means of sorting for case capacity because case manufacturing can often cause weight variances that DO NOT represent capacity. Extractor grooves are one such area. Case wall thickness, base thickness, and case neck thickness are others.

I determined that for me, there was only one way to accurately determine capacity and that this was to actually measure it directly, not with water, which has issues with surface tension, but with the actual powder that will be used to fill the case. Nothing gets closer to the truth.

Case hardness relates directly to neck tension, which affects SD and overall velocity.

I don't anneal, so I had to find another way to govern neck tension. My way was to vary the length of the neck which got resized. More neck length resized = more neck tension, and so forth. I do partial neck length resizing for this and other reasons. I only do it for my only custom gun, a 260. I F/L resize with the die backed off to govern the length of the neck sizing process. This means the the shoulder doesn't get touched. In compensation, I use my 308 F/L die as a bump die. With the decapping stem removed, it doesn't touch the neck. Both my 308 and 260 barrels are set up using the same 308 chamber headspace GO gauge, and the shoulders are measured using the same 308 case gauge. I use Savage rifles, which allow me this freedom to adjust headspace.

Since I single feed the 260 for F Class, I try to maintain minimum neck tension. If the bullet can be pushed inward with thumb pressure, the tension is too light.

The Lapua brass material and production process ensures better consistency for hardness, case dimensions, and case capacity; and this work and QC standards make this a more expensive process; or so I assume.

My techniques allow me to make some improvements to lesser brass that can allow one to somewhat simulate the benefits of Lapua brass. It's a trade-off between time and money for the handloader; one that I choose to make. In practice, it's really not much more effort.

Greg
 
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I don't anneal, so I had to find another way to govern neck tension. My way was to vary the length of the neck which got resized. More neck length resized = more neck tension, and so forth. I do partial neck length resizing for this and other reasons.

With this method, how are you measuring neck tension?

It occurs to me as easier to measure and control by use of bushings or mandrels, and measured with a pin gage.
 
That may be. I use this method by observing the target. As dispersion eventually increases for my current batch of brass, I adjust the loading die a bit higher. Usually this will restore the group size. As it gets too loose, the thumb test moves the bullet, and I know I've gone too far. By the time things get ridiculous, the pockets are loose, anyway.

This is by no means a measurement. I try to avoid getting down to the decimals, etc. My real goal is to improve my rifle's performance, and I will look first to the target before I try to devise a metric. Very often, I don't need to go further.

I'm not looking for ultimate accuracy at any price, ala BR. I started out by adopting BR techniques, but soon found that they were really overkill for the kind of accuracy I needed (NRA Highpower National Match).

I learned the partial length resizing technique from my Brother Bill; who was eleven years my senior, and did some BR shooting before my time. According to him, in those days there were only F/L resizing dies, and this was the method they resorted to in order to try and get some handle on controlling neck tension. The logic involved has been surpassed by the equipment industry and we now have a rather vast selection of devices and techniques that take the art out of the process and turn it into a science.

For me, it works well enough, and it also gives me a way to reconnect with my Brother after his passing those few years back. At 74, I've outlived him, just. My other Brother, Bob, was also a shooter like the two of us. He passed this January, an early victim of Covid, at age 84.

Greg
 
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Greg,

I see. And no downside to such minimal neck tension as 'the thumb test' for single feed.

Out of curiosity, are you jamming the bullet? Or are you still sizing enough of the case neck to hold it in place during ignition?
 
No, I don't jam.

Bullet ogives vary quite a bit, so a jammed bullet cannot be certainteed to be at any identical jam length for all in a batch. Different jam distances very likely absorb different fractions of the charge energy as the bullet obturates, and may be significant in areas like SD and ES. These are unknowns I'd rather not play with.

I prefer a decent jump, .010-.030".

Primarily, I'm trying to ensure that all bullets jump, so I have to start that jump from a significant distance further than the degree by which the ogives vary. Not being able to conclusively say what that number is; I have to start a bit back and take a running start.

I will not resize less than 1/2 the neck size. I can't see if the bullet moves between primer ignition and powder ignition and I do use a little smidgen of hope in my reasoning. But again, watching the target tells me whether I'm doing something wrong based on the last alteration to my process.

No, I haven't heard of Lapua failures; and I don't expect to either. But such good QC costs, and as I inferred above, I prefer sweat equity over the higher prices. I know what I did, but can only conjecture upon the works of others. ...And yes, I am human, and therefore fallible.

Greg
 
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