Tubular bullets

[richalexander97]

Hi i was wondering if tubular (hollow) bullets could be viable as a potential small arms future option. it would allow all the benefits of a flechette or sabot, without the accuracy problems.

On one extreme you could have a normal. 19 or. 22 bullet which has a small hole running through.

Or you could have a totally ring- like projectile which is paper thin.

They do need a pushing wad behind them to seal the bore. Some tanks use this idea for training ammo, and they can reach 1500m before stability problems arise.

Google L15A1 DSRR and click the first website for a picture of these rounds

Do you think it could be scaled down to military small arms?

 

[Fig]

No

 

[Fig]

They would need to be made of uranium. Go look at ballistic coefficients by weights well as aerodynamic shape. Weight is good. Holes are bad, because they cost weight.

 

[DJL2]

Hi i was wondering if tubular (hollow) bullets could be viable as a potential small arms future option. it would allow all the benefits of a flechette or sabot, without the accuracy problems.

On one extreme you could have a normal. 19 or. 22 bullet which has a small hole running through.

Or you could have a totally ring- like projectile which is paper thin.

They do need a pushing wad behind them to seal the bore. Some tanks use this idea for training ammo, and they can reach 1500m before stability problems arise.

Google L15A1 DSRR and click the first website for a picture of these rounds

Do you think it could be scaled down to military small arms?

Nope. Tank ammo with a confirmed kill at 4 clicks (the Brits back in Gulf 1), published effective range to 3000 plus meters versus training ammo with stability issues at 1500m sort of highlights just how big a drop in performance you’re talking about.

A cylinder shaped bullet would be absolutely awful from a drag perspective. That goes double for wind drift. The larger problem is that, particularly at range, mass kicks ass...and taking mass from the projectile hamstrings your terminal performance considerably.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

That talk was all the internet rage about 12 years ago from a few different "smart guys".
They wanted to scale down the air foil grenade type concept or something like that.
Long story short....it never happened.

Next projectile advancement will come in the form of 2 part "monolithic" projectiles as to where a tungsten insert is pressed into the back drilled rear section of a copper monolithic allowing us to reduce the projectile footprint yet increase sectional density.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[1moaoff]

What if we just stuff it with spent primers?

 

[richalexander97]

Yes but all you'd need, is for it to be stable and accurate at 600m. there's no reason a round with 556 levels of energy couldn't do this.


Then you could have a projo with the drag qualities of a. 17 bullet, weighing about 50grains.

Far better range and time to target than 556.
And much less recoil.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

LOL OK.

Nobody going to go through all that for some measly 600m anyway.

Post up your results when you get it done.

My PO is still unfilled from 10 years ago when the guys were "all we need" this and that.


Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Fig]

Hi,

That talk was all the internet rage about 12 years ago from a few different "smart guys".
They wanted to scale down the air foil grenade type concept or something like that.
Long story short....it never happened.

Next projectile advancement will come in the form of 2 part "monolithic" projectiles as to where a tungsten insert is pressed into the back drilled rear section of a copper monolithic allowing us to reduce the projectile footprint yet increase sectional density.

Sincerely,
Theis

Ya think those’ll be cheaper than SMKs?

 

[KeithStone]

Ya think those’ll be cheaper than SMKs?

Lol beat me to it

 

[Ledzep]

@THEIS How are you going to get tungsten core solids on the civilian market? Or are we thinking in different veins?

I'm most interested, as far as 'future projectiles' go, in smooth bore systems with fin stabilized projectiles. Opens up a whole new world of materials, shapes, etc... and you lose the drawbacks caused by spin (drift, magnus, stability limitations...). Obviously comes with its own set of issues, namely munition length.

Anyway it may be a misplaced endeavor. I think currently the limitation to the systems we use is powder. It's directly responsible for group size and velocity spreads and you almost never hear discussion on it. Always about better bullets.

 

[richalexander97]

Presumably u mean sabots. They are well known for poor accuracy.
A finned projo would need a decent amount of weight or it can weathervane in strong winds.

I suggested tubular because it might emulate flechette ballistics without the poor accuracy

 

[6.5SH]

PMC did it 20 some years ago for handguns it didn't catch on or perform well other than high muzzle velocity.

PMC Ultramag cartridges

The attached photos are of the commercially imported (now discontinued) PMC Ultramag, with 66gr and 110gr tubular copper bullets in .38 Special and .44 Special, respectively. Case stamp for each is “38 SPL +P PMC” and “44 S&W SPL PMC” The bullet design is basically from Flatau. The visually...

forum.cartridgecollectors.org

 

[THEIS]

@THEIS How are you going to get tungsten core solids on the civilian market? Or are we thinking in different veins?

I'm most interested, as far as 'future projectiles' go, in smooth bore systems with fin stabilized projectiles. Opens up a whole new world of materials, shapes, etc... and you lose the drawbacks caused by spin (drift, magnus, stability limitations...). Obviously comes with its own set of issues, namely munition length.

Anyway it may be a misplaced endeavor. I think currently the limitation to the systems we use is powder. It's directly responsible for group size and velocity spreads and you almost never hear discussion on it. Always about better bullets.

Hi,

Here is the answer to the civilian market in regards to tungsten core solids...
1. KEEP them out of damn pistols...first and foremost.
2.Then follow the GCA definition of armor piercing, not the internet definition.

Now, in regards to powder problems....
IMO we only have powder problems because we are still trying to function and improve overall internal and external ballistics while holding on to last centuries pressure ratings. SAAMI and CIP need a major upgrade/revision to the pressure scales of modern centerfire cartridges.

Sincerely,
Theis